Oil (and water) cooling revisited

[carnut169]

True. I also noticed that the tabs are part of the 8.25" measurement and could be trimmed.

I think I'll go with the shorter 50 row (15 3/4" ish) but may keep the other (serpentine) cooler as well.

Besides that, a new radiator is on the way (C&R still has one one the shelf), gutting the thermostat, having the headers coated, sealing the pods so only air going through the radiators can escape, and possibly removing the pod screens. Hope that will keep everything cool enough!

[RussMcB]

I agree. Attacking the problem via multiple angles should increase chances of success.

One thing I think is a problem on my car is the old exits on my sidepods are now crammed with stuff that wasn't there before the conversion (header collecter, remote oil filter, etc.). I plan to make sure the exit air has a better path out of the radiators - maybe naca ducts, louvres, Gurney flaps, ...

I'm also planning another mod to the big cockpit side body pieces. It should help cooling slightly, but the other benefit is easier R&R. I'm thinking of having the lower sections (probably new aluminum panels) be separate from the top fiberglass pieces. I think I can route and seal the cooling air better that way, and make the car easier to work on (easier removal of side panels near shoulders).

I'm thinking of using thicker engine oil (i.e., 10w50) for a little additional protection. Good idea?

[Justin Pritchard]

Don S. got fed up with the highish oil temps on our(his!) Piper and put a medium sized oil cooler right out on the diffuser in the air flow, and presto, we ran 175 h2o, 210 oil at Mid Ohio at 75 and cloudy! He is working on something more elegant now. We run 15w50 and are still a wet sump.

JP

[Art Smith]

Russ-

before making bodywork mods with the intent of "improving" air flow I'd recommend making some simple measurements with a water manometer (small diameter plastic tubing bent into the shape of a "U" after heating, vynal tubing, water, food coloring to suit, and a ruler with large numbers). in a perfect world you should measure:
1.) the "delta-P" (pressure difference) between ambient and in front of the radiator as a function of speed
2.) the "delta-P" across the radiator core as a function of speed
3.) the "delta-P" between ambient and aft of the radiator as a function of speed

the measurements will do three crucial things for you:
1.) confirm you have a problem
2.) identify where the problem is
3.) provide a basis that can be used objectively to assess the merit(s) of your solution

shotguns are great for bird hunting and home defence, but very poor engineering tools in my opinion. a little data is almost always the key to identifing the shortest path and lowest cost solution for getting between point "A" and point "B"................

Art
artesmith@earthlink.net

[RussMcB]

That's true Art, and I may try that in the future, but the next time my car goes to the track (a few months from now), I want to feel like I've done all I can between now and then, and that's why the shotgun approach is in effect right now.

I'll probably hold off on *radical* changes to the sidepods, but, just looking at the different areas of the car, I can't help but think there are several areas that can be improved. If, after those improvements I still have a problem, I may have to take it to the next step with test procedures such as you suggest. Or, I might try the easier way out and just buy a gun. :-).

I like the "data" approach, and use it when it's easy and affordable. Unfortunately, I can't afford to go to the track often, so I'm doing a lot of guessing and finger crossing. I still have some confidence that I can get over this new car jitters stage and race in F1000 on a very tight budget.

[jerry freeman]

Russ or anybody,

I was wondering what specific remote oil filter setup you used to go from the motorcycle filter mount on the engine to the remote mount one. Not sure what the threads are on the old Honda CB1000 but I wouldn't think they would be the same as a small block chevy or something easy to find at Summit or Jegs. The car filters also look larger in diameter. I want to put the oil cooler on the car before the Birmingham race. Pics are always nice also.

Thanks,
Jerry

[RussMcB]

Jerry, I got my remote adapter (the part that bolts to the engine and can accept AN fittings) from Peter D Motorsport. Perhaps you can do a Google search for CBR1000 remote oil filter to find someone that sells one for your engine.

The actual remote oil filter housing can be a car type from Summit or wherever. I chose to reused my stock Kawasaki oil filter mount, just remotely rather than bolted directly to the engine. My Kawasaki is probably a different set up than your engine's, though.

Are there CBR1000 discussion forums? If so, ask them. There are probably CBR1000 drag racers using remote oil filters and coolers.

[RussMcB]

Here's what I ordered from Summit Racing. Notice that it is back ordered, I guess it is not a common size.

EAR-26008ERL Engine Oil Cooler Expected Arrival 7/4/08 $310.69

http://store.summitracing.com/partde...0&autoview=sku

Yikes. I just went back to recheck the dimensions. The price just went up about $60. Sorry about that. My sale probably triggered that. Or maybe it was diesel prices. Or the price of exotic cooler materials. Or global warming. :-).

Geez. Two weeks after I place my order I decide to call and check on the status. The answer was pretty much, "We don't know when you might get it. It's not in stock anywhere and we don't know when it will be. Ever.". Either Summit or Earl's has the heads up their butts. Glad I called or who knows how much time might have passed.

I hope no one followed my recommendation to order one of these.

Looks like I'll call BAT tomorrow and order a Mocal or Setrab. I'm not looking forward to learning the cost ...

[Matt Conrad]

Russ,

The cooler we have used on all of our cars (SR & FB) running the wet sump (dry sumps used larger fittings) has been a 34-Row unit with -8 fittings. We do not run the oil cooler in front of or behind the radiator...it is in its own duct. We've used Earl's, MOCAL and Setrab. I haven't found an Earl's cooler for over a year and I'm pretty sure BAT stocks the other two

GO HERE

Matt Conrad
Phoenix Race Works, LLC

[Mark H]

I'd put a medium size oil cooler right out in the air flow on the diffuser.
When being hammered, do what the hammer does .......if you have the same hammer then its all up to who's driving the nails?

[formulasuper]

Russ,

The cooler we have used on all of our cars (SR & FB) running the wet sump (dry sumps used larger fittings) has been a 34-Row unit with -8 fittings. We do not run the oil cooler in front of or behind the radiator...it is in its own duct. We've used Earl's, MOCAL and Setrab. I haven't found an Earl's cooler for over a year and I'm pretty sure BAT stocks the other two

GO HERE

Matt Conrad
Phoenix Race Works, LLC

"(dry sumps used larger fittings)" IMO, this would be a major reason to run a dry sump system.

[RussMcB]

I ordered a Setrab oil cooler from BAT. PN A50F225, $420. *

http://64.202.180.37/files/setrab$.pdf

I'll share pictures of the installation & ducting when done.

Mark, another cooler in the back of the car is an option if my other changes aren't enough.

Russ


* Sometimes I wonder if my life would be better if I took my wife out for a night and spent $400 on her ... :-).

[RussMcB]

"(dry sumps used larger fittings)" IMO, this would be a major reason to run a dry sump system.

I heard another dry sump benefit recently. Oil stored in a remote tank is not heated like oil sitting inside the bottom of a hot engine. That hadn't really dawned on me before. Gotta be pretty hot in there.

[Mike B]

* Sometimes I wonder if my life would be better if I took my wife out for a night and spent $400 on her ... :-).

It would, but only for an hour or so.





.

[sidney]

Hey Russ,

I followed your lead on the Earls. Going to cancel that order and get this one. We think we can fit it in front of the rad. The price was right for a double pass cooler. We shall see.


http://www.prcracing.com/oil-coolers.html

[Matt Conrad]

In regards to the dry sump systems....

I was very convinced that in the long run a dry sump system was the way to go...and it is....one way to go.

We sourced these systems in the UK and with the price of materials, falling dollar, and cost of shipping....particulary overseas...the systems just got out of hand price-wise.

We have now run several races and test sessions using the popular baffled and trap-door pan now being widely used. It has worked flawlessly and we have never seen an oil pressure drop at revs since using the system. We use custom -8 fittings that mount to the block and -8 fittings on the oil cooler. We use a 20W-50 4-Stroke Motorcycle Oil. Oil temps have never been above 270 degrees, even when running with ambient temps at 100 and track temps at 140....last Friday.

Matt Conrad
Phoenix Race Works, LLC

[RussMcB]

I am amazed and impressed that the baffle design works so well. I never would have thought it could be as good as a dry sump, but they must've gotten it dead nuts right. A lot of people are running it successfully. And there's a lot to say for its simplicity ...

[High Desert Racing]

Matt,

Do you sell those custom -8 for the block?

Looking forward to racing with you, Richard and possibly Hector and Jose this Sept.

This sure has been a very helpful thread Russ.


Ed

[Matt Conrad]

Ed,

We do have those in stock. They are $60/pair. PM me or call me at 602-799-1922 if you need them.

Matt Conrad
Phoenix Race Works, LLC

[Matt Conrad]

Deleted....wrong thread.

Matt Conrad
Phoenix Race Works, LLC

[sidney]

Anyone care to comment on what looks like an oil cooler mounted on the left side of the Piper outside the bodywork? Maybe someone at the Sprints knows the full story. Looks like they need some additional cooling because that appreas to be much bigger than the original one mounted on the diffuser.
http://www.apexspeed.com/forums/show...t=28114&page=2

[Wren]

Anyone care to comment on what looks like an oil cooler mounted on the left side of the Piper outside the bodywork? Maybe someone at the Sprints knows the full story. Looks like they need some additional cooling because that appreas to be much bigger than the original one mounted on the diffuser.
http://www.apexspeed.com/forums/show...t=28114&page=2

Justin said here that they needed additional cooling and so Don put one on the diffuser:

http://apexspeed.com/forums/showpost...1&postcount=43


Don has told us that he is still looking for the best way to mount this, but for now he is willing to accept a little additional drag in order to protect the engine.

I believe that the engine problem they were having at the sprints was electrical and not an internal problem.

[Brandon Dixon]

I believe that the engine problem they were having at the sprints was electrical and not an internal problem.

I heard that they had a fuel pressure regulator die, and the fuel pressure fluctuations had the engine running poorly.

[RussMcB]

Just wondering if anyone knew which oils stand up best to heat.

I found an interesting web site article (http://www.amsoil.com/lit/g2156.pdf), but since it was sponsored by Amsoil, I wasn't sure if it was completely truthful. Amsoil scored at or near the top for most tests.

[carnut169]

Here is a similiar test done by Sportsrider. Looks like we need to be paying attention to % of weight loss (amoung other things). No clear-cut winners, but Mobile1 looks good in both tests. I've been running Motorex PowerSyn 4T, which did well in the weight loss test but at $60 a gallon is just too much $$. I also think one of the keys for us is frequently changing the oil as clutch material can clog the oil filter reducing flow. When I lost the motor last year I did not have an oil temp guage so had no idea what was happening there, and did not change the oil for 4 events. It will be dumped after each event going forward.



http://www.sportrider.com/tech/146_0310_oil/index.html

[carnut169]

and while I'm here....

these are the changes I've made to hopefully make the cooling system work better.

In the right pod is the new C&R radiator. The fan pulls air through it and into the small oil cooler before traveling over to the large Setrab in the left pod. Fan has its own switch as I suspect it will only be effective on cool-down & pace laps plus in the grid. The water also will go from the C&R over to the left side VD radiator. I've blocked off the engine compartment a bit on the left side like Mike did on Coop's car. Lastly, the gaps are completely filled- only air traveling through both the oil cooler and radiator can exit.

The front of the engine has heat protection material on it- this should help keep header heat away as well as containing some of the oil in the event of a failure.

The headers are now coated with ceramic coating and a thermal primer inside and out.

[sidney]

The new cooler we ordered will fit in front of the rad without modifying the air duct cover on the Tatuus. This was a concern, as we assumed we would have to modify the duct to make it work. Testing in late August should tell us if this is enough.

[Purple Frog]

Sean, et al;

Check this out. Audette Racing in Canada sells them for VDs. It's a way to enhance cooling at the rear of the narrow VD sidepods.

[carnut169]

Thanks Mike. I've contacted Audette for prices/ details. They are 1st going to review the data to see what sort of effect they had.

Didn't realize the zetec's were also having cooling issues....

[RussMcB]

That's a pretty interesting way to get air out of the sidepod. Kinda like the rear facing chimneys. I did a little Google searching for chimneys offered for sale but no hits. Maybe Stohr or Phoenix have them? Sprecher says they are simple to make, but he stopped short of offering to make a couple for me.

[Mike B]

It's hard to tell from the pics, is the wing attached at the front of the chimney? If it is, the chimney itself negates any effect the wing might have on pulling air out of the chimney.
A chimney would be simple to make. Designing a proper one and mounting it in the right spot is the challenge.

[RussMcB]

One part of my multifaceted approach to improve the cooling on my RF-94 conversion was to adapt Mike Devins' larger sidepod opening. Mike's piece is made to fit the later VD sidepods, so they didn't mate perfectly to my sidepod's curves. Even so, I really liked the idea of opening up the small openings so I decided to make it work. It's not pretty, but seems to provide a significantly larger opening.

I'll probably try to get Mike to make some pieces for the RF95 sidepods this winter. If he does, I think that will be the way to go for early 90's conversions.

These pictures were taken midway in the project. After the patches were finished I made everything gloss black and should look OK at 150 MPH. :-).

[RussMcB]

It's a cold winter night in Atlanta, GA so I thought I'd pull up some AIM data from the Barber Motorsports Park Race this past summer.

It was pretty hot in Alabama that weekend (ambient 95 degrees?).

My max oil temps were:

- 265 degrees before the cooler

- 233 degrees after the cooler.

I thought I'd post those numbers and see if people thought those were okay, or if I need to continue improving my oil cooling.

Thanks for any thoughts.

BTW, my max water temps were around 203 degrees.

[ghickman]

Russ
Based on what I know from my engine building days, what I've learned in my recent testing in my own FB at Willow Springs Raceway, and taking in all the posts on Apexspeed I would say YOU ARE GOLDEN.

Forgot to mention we've been picking George Deans brain on this also...your numbers are perfect in his book.

Regards
Gary Hickman

[glenn cooper]

and Golden. Temps ain't your problem anymore!

Time to just pony up and get a fresh, low mileage, known good engine in that thing. Just admit it Russ, you'll never be able to out-cheap Formula Super.
Only then will you be able to move on!

My advice? Take 3 of these () on race day, and if you've not had any
of these () during the race, and ya didn't receive one of these () at some point of the weekend, and you had no more than 7 of these () at the party sat night, I can damn near promise a guy of your caliber will see more of these (), and more than likely some of these (), and I'd bet some of these () as well. Can this () be far behind?

GC

[glenn cooper]

were deluxe on raceday (75 ambient) - about 180 water, and 190 oil.
The latest oil cooling mods from temps at June Sprints were the Kropp Drysump system, and the C and R Racing VD water rad sized and shaped oil cooler.

On Sunday morn Q, prob about 45 degrees ambient, I had a 2" strip of tape across the water inlet sidepod opening, and on the oil cooler pod inlet, all but a 2" strip was taped up solid to get to similar operating temps.

GC

[RussMcB]

YOU ARE GOLDEN.

Thanks, Gary (& Glenn). Very encouraging.

I *think* my car as a whole is in pretty good shape now. All of the systems seem to be sorted. I just need to get a reliable engine in it. We (Roger @ MSP Cycles in ATL & I) have a plan, so maybe I can start enjoying driving again in 2009, and try to get me and the car up to speed.

[Jnovak]

We are working on a cooling kit & and oil kit (complete dry sump) that is based on the development work that we have done with Glenn.

More info later.

Thanks ... Jay