Minimum Weight Question

[CWilcox]

Question maybe some of you more experienced racers wouldn't mind answering.
When you weigh your car how do you deal with the variable weights such as fuel or other?
Do you weigh in at some minimum fuel load so that when you are done racing it is unlikely that you will come in with less fuel and thereby be above min weight? How close to the minimum of 1100 lbs do you push it given the uncertainty of your raceday weight vs garage setup day weight. I will be using Intercomp digital scales so accuracy is decent.
Thanks,
Chris

[rickb99]

Your scales are probably decent. Be aware some track side scales may not be so decent. If you set yourself up to weigh in about 15 to 20 or 25 Lbs over minimum (with all fluids and about 2 to 3 gallons of gas) you should be safe. Gas (depending upon type) weighs 5.6 to 6.1 Lbs per gallon. So don't come in too dry.

Hate to see you lose a qual. time or podium from being underweight.

[Stan Clayton]

Chris, I don't have a FF, but my team has addressed this challenge repeatedly in the past, and here is what we have settled on after the following experiences.

We weigh the car on our Longacre electronic scales and compare to track scales...then ballast to minimum weight after pumping out all recoverable fuel, but with full fluids and driver. Then add fuel for all-green-flag-racing, and go for it!

Result: at the '02 Runoffs Rennie (driver/son) finished 3rd and weighed 1.5 lbs over the minimum. Good thing he didn't win and do a victory lap!

For the '03 Runoffs, we did the same thing, except added one gallon (6 lbs) of fuel before fueling for a green flag race.

Result: Rennie won and took the victory lap...weighed 3 lbs over the minimum.

By carefully weighing the car after lots and lots of races, we knew how many mpg's our car gets, and fuel accordingly. Don't cut yourself short, but don't carry more added weight than needed. Ten pounds more or less equals 1/10th of a second per lap, so do the maths...

Hope that helps!

Stan

[Garey Guzman]

I think Stan's method is followed closely by many.

I also weighed my fuel so that I know how much weight I was adding at every point in the weekend and would know about what I would weigh on the scales.

Note that the track scales can change from day to day too. I try to get a baseline weight each morning.

When I first started, I tried to get within 15 lbs of the min. The longer I've been doing this, the closer I can get to the min. I've never been DQ'ed but the tech folks have suggested I be careful!

Stan,
If the weight/time estimate is accurate, my car must somehow weigh 200 lbs more than JRII's!

[EYERACE]

weigh yourself at the track......because even if the scales are junk - like the Moroso one - they're still the official scales. use your scales to get a close idea but you must check yourself at each track. if you're worried, shut the car off on the cool down lap and be towed in.....to the scales

[Tom Valet]

Chris, everything already said is sound advice which you should follow. But to answer your question of just how close people cut it to minimum weight after a race, it will depend in part on how competitive you are. If you are just starting out and learning how to drive the car, 10 or 15 or even 25 pounds of extra weight will make no noticeable difference in your lap times and you should set your car up so that there is no possible way for you to come in under weight. This way you can concentrate on other things as you are preparing the car and getting ready to race, rather than having to spend time making complicated calculations about dry weight, fuel weight, fuel consumption, fuel levels etc. The easiest way to ensure you wont be underweight is to have your car with driver/gear etc weigh more than 1100 pounds with no fuel in it. Then fill the tank up to the top. Even if you use all the fuel you will be over the minimum.

Once you start to get more competitive you can play around with figuring out how much the car should weigh before the race, how much fuel you will use, how much fuel to add, and how close to the minimum you want to play it. We give ourselves a 5 pound margin of error so that most of the time the car comes in between 7-10 pounds over minimum. But there is nothing worse than standing in the impound line after making the podium praying that the car makes weight.

HTH

Tom

[John Robinson II]

What I do is to weigh after a session on the offical scales and then proceed directly to my scales and note the difference. Then drain all fuel from the cell and weigh it. Based on that figure how much fuel you need for the race and how much to make minimum. My car is 6# under totally dry, I once had a pickup problem so use that to insure there is enough to run hard to the end of the race.

If I come in more then 5# heavy I get crap from chinky. I have also been pulled aside in many impounds and told that I am close to min. I point out that it is still legal even if I come in at 1100.

YMMV

John

[CWilcox]

This is better information than I expected. Thanks for taking the time. I am very new at this. Completed 3 race weekends last season as a rookie and expect to do 5 or 6 this year. I'll use the advice above but maybe aim for 10# over weight as my min weight and see how close I can get. It'll be fun.
Chris

[Roland V. Johnson]

Just remember, if you run that close to wieght, and knock the nose off on the last corner and are underweight by 1 pound, many tec people will have no sympathy!

[EYERACE]

the last few races i was over by 2 lbs - over by 3 lbs - under by 1 ......and they let it go....i was under because i had lost a fair amount of water and of course i didn't know it.

a few years ago at roebling, the chief steward was standing right next to the scales....again i was one pound under and he looked at me and said "no one is one pound under, it's ok, get out of here" the chief steward understood that the picky essence of it was while i was under, a single pound out of 1100 is within the error range of the scales so i was trying to be within the rules....and he was not going to be nit pricker........he understood and so did i that this is club racing. your luck may vary

make a dipstick for your gas tank, calculate your gas level prerace to leave about a half gallon in the bottom for sloshing in the corners for the pickup at the end of the cool down lap - not the race - and then what excess gas you may need to make weight on the scales at the end. carry ballast as a chunk of drilled with bolts lead about 8 pounds that you could add to the car if need be. i have even taped socket sets, crescent wrenches and large breaker bars into the sides of the car to add weight.

[Brian]

Drive in all of the marbles on your way back to impound. going by what I have to scrape off my tires even when I stick closely to the line after a race, you'll pick up several pounds.

[Larry]

Eye, every steward I know tries to be reasonable. Your experience was not unusual, but it would have undoubtedly been different if there had been a protest. At that point, it becomes a clear DQ. I've had people ask me "how much under weight is acceptable?" The minimum is the minimum, and just because you got a break one time doesn't mean you would be equally fortunate on the next occasion.

Larry Oliver
International Racing Products

[EACIII]

If you think you are going to be close make sure to your crew has a big bottle of water for you to drink as you wait to go on the scales, you are going to want a drink after a race right?

[Rick Kirchner]

We DQ'd a guy at IRP in the mid 80's for a variation on the driver water scheme. It was in the high 90's and unbelieveably humid, the guy won, came in and in the pits the crew threw a whole cooler of ice water in the car. No way to verify what his real weight was off the track, and he was real close, so DQ'd.

That's why we used to have medical meet the drivers at the scales with water and wet towels!

[Roland V. Johnson]

Remember, being underweight by any amount is cheating. Just like running a cheater cam! Throwing water on, or anyother like measure, is just trying to get away with it after getting caught cheating!

[John Robinson II]

Just remember, if you run that close to wieght, and knock the nose off on the last corner and are underweight by 1 pound, many tec people will have no sympathy!

If I remember correctly, you get to go and retrieve the parts you knocked off. But if you knock the nose off on the last corner, I dont think you will have to worry about weight.

John

[John Robinson II]

Remember, being underweight by any amount is cheating. Just like running a cheater cam! Throwing water on, or anyother like measure, is just trying to get away with it after getting caught cheating!

Roland, I beg to disagree. A cheater cam is an obvious attempt to gain an advantage and took fore thought and effort. Being 1 or 2 pounds underweight could be a unintentional mistake. I do agree that it is still illegal and should get you tossed, but not the same. Now if you came in 25 or 50 pounds light, well, that is a different story. Err, excuse me Mr Techman, that is an original not an uprated engine, so I only have to be 1050 pounds and it is bored .030 over...hehehe

John

[Gerald Barrett]

I raced in the rain many years ago. Was rear ended by an FV and my tail came off. I didn't know it, and came back to win the race. Weighed 1095 on the scales, and I said "No Way, this car is never close to minimum". The tech guy pointed to the rear of my car and the fact the tail was missing. Oh Sh*t!!! He asked me how I did, and I told him I won. He said their scales weighed in 5lb increments, so wait to see if I am protested. I told the 2nd place guy that I might not make weight without the tail. He was really upset with himself and said don't worry there will not be a protest.
Survived that one due to an understanding tech guy and a competitor who wanted to win on the track.
Gerald.

[Richard Hybels]

Somebody said "Ten pounds more or less equals 1/10th of a second per lap, so do the maths."
I've heard that on F1 broadcasts but I wonder just what the math is.
At 260 lbs I need all the lightening I can do so I have a 12v electric pump and pumped out all fuel last night by taking hose off fuel pump.
When I get to Thunder Hill this weekend I'll experiment. I believe it's 2.5 gal for 15 minutes green flag running.

[John Robinson II]

Richard,
Figure 11 to 12 mpg. I generally use about 4 to 4.5 gals for a national race. Make sure to leave a little for pick up, I try and leave 1 gal in cell. Best way is to put a known amount in your empty cell and then pump out after the session.

John
PS dont forget to add the out and in lap.

[Dave SanF 50]

And the all important VICTORY LAP
dave

[Roland V. Johnson]

John, as a former Tec Inspector, I lost my sense of humor about the weight issue a long time ago. Having to send a competitor to the Stewards for an infraction that will result in them being disqualified is nothing I ever wanted to do. However, if you choose to run that close to being illegal and you fall over that line, it was your choice. Cheating by one pound is still cheating. If it didn't make any difference, then why did you do it? Does 5 pounds really make that much difference for almost any FF driver? I make more mistakes per lap than that. Please understand this is not personal, and I am not infering that you are a cheater.

[Tim FF19]

If I go to the scales after the race and I am underweight, and after reweighing the car I am still underweight, even just a pound, then it is my problem, not the stewards. I would expect to get tossed just as I would expect the stewards to toss anyone of my competitors for being a pound light. Seems pretty simple.

[mblanc]

Cheating by one pound is still cheating.

I disagree. Being slightly below weight is being found illegal, Cheating requires a whole different intent. Run a car 150# below weight, and hope you don't get pulled to impound is cheating. As would be the illegal cam mentioned above.

But, Being 1 or more pounds underweight because
a. cutting it too close-
b. knocked the nose off
c. forgot to put fuel in for pace/cool/victory laps
d. any other screw up intentional or not,

-IS NOT CHEATING-

Yes, you are and should be deemed illegal.

Cheating is a different deal.

I know Roland disclaimed his statement with 'I'm not inferring you're a cheater'
But the idea of being illegal by missing the weight is so far from 'cheating' that it is a word that shouldn't even have been mentioned in this discussion, especially under the opinion of 'former tech inspector.'

Just because somebody does something that would/could be determined to make an entry illegal, does not make him a cheater.

Many tech inspectors (though not all) have the attitude of 'helping competitors keep their car legal and safe,' rather than 'looking for cheaters.' I think the inspectors that give the warning of 'cutting it close' on weight are in the helpful group.

[CWilcox]

Finally got the car on scales last night. It was getting late and I didn't have time to do any adjustment but with me in it wearing street clothes and roughly 3/4 tank of fuel it weighed 1116 lb. Unfortunately I'm running the original engine so I'm like 50# heavy with no easy places to remove weight, however that engine will be replaced eventually with an uprated I expect.
The above discussion has been informative and somewhat entertaining. Thanks.
Chris

[Garey Guzman]

Chris,
Are you sure you have a Cortina (original) and not the uprated motor? A complete original motor is very unuasal outside of Historic FF and even then, I *think* the uprated is allowed.

I saw in your other post asking for carb help that you have a DGV carb, which isn't legal on an original motor, only on the uprated. The biggest differences are in the head - see GCR for proper sizes.