Engine Failures

[glenn cooper]

I was speaking with my engine guy from my DSR days today. We had a bitchin' fast DSR in 2005 (Suzuki) and never had an engine issue, wet sumped and all.
We got to talking about the recent rash of GSXR failures, and he quized me on a few things. Specifically I was wondering how folks were priming the oil system in their cars.
On the bike there is maybe a cup of oil in the cooler, whereas we have literally feet of hose, and coolers that hold at least 1 qt.
It is my belief that there is something amiss in the first startup that is leading to our current plight.
I think FB will be best served if all concerned would contribute to this thread; take us through a step by step of the whole procedure you followed.
Thanks, GC

[Stan Clayton]

I think I'm having deja vu all over again...

[glenn cooper]

Whatchootalkin'bout, Willis?

[Stan Clayton]

Double post, bro...

[carnut169]

I think its got something to do with cooling issues. Still, there are plenty of FB's running around without failures. I ran my 04 for 1.5 years before it let go, using a 4x9" small oil cooler and dry sump.

I do always spin the motor until I see the oil pressure build before starting...

[Sean Maisey]

Coop,

In my most recent iteration (2006 GSXR) I have been running the NovaTech dry sump. I run about 5QTs of oil in the sump tank.

To prime the system:
1) I fill the tank 2/3.
2) I put 1 QT in the engine
3) I spin up the engine until I see good OP.
4) I top off the dry sump tank until it is on the verge of 'puking out' a bit of oil when hot.
5) There are probably 6-7 QTs in the system when full.

My system is plumbed so that the oil cooler is the last thing the oil passes through before returning to the tank. My temps are taken at the inlet fitting to the cooler.

I have come to believe that we are just seeing too much oil temp to live long. As discussed in the last two days on the oil cooler post, I think we need more cooling. I think the newer engines (05/06 and 07/08) run that much hotter and we have just taken it a step too far for our marginal cooling systems.

Most successful stories I have heard from DSR runners are running an oil cooler in the 100-144 sq. in. surface area range. My current oil cooler is more like 45 sq. in.. Sounds like Sean O.'s is about the same.

Sean

[glenn cooper]

Sean, I'm specifically talking about the GSXR, and also extra specifically about the very first engine startup. I think there is definitely something Suzuki related.
The DSR's have lots of room for a cooler, and as Jay mentioned in the other post, a full flow, as opposed to a serpentine style cooler.
GC

[Sean Maisey]

This issue is my number one concern right now. Between the motor lost testing before the ARRC, the crash at Savannah and the most recent motor expiring at VIR, I am getting a little thin on funds. I just can not afford another failure this year.

For reference, the Elephant racing site has some very useful stats on Setrab coolers.

http://www.elephantracing.com/documents/oilcoolerspecs.pdf

Specifically it shows recommended HP ranges, oil pressure drops, and BTU/hr rates.

I have been running the equivalent of the 616M22I Setrab (Racetec and Earls equivalents). This is a 16 row cooler. I can fit the 19 row with out any mods, but I am thinking I need the 25 row unit based upon the input I have gotten so far. That will be a tough fit...

Any advice or analysis is welcome.

Sean M.

[Messenger Racing]

While new to this deal, I have experience with other bike powered cars (hate to admit it - but legends cars). We fill the tank - or pan if wet sump, then start at the motor and fill each item in sequence by either turning over the motor with an air escape allowed or by hand filling each item.

I pay special attention to allowing all trapped air a way out of the system as I do the initial prime. This includes the camshafts. While I have only done it once - I believe I used my legends system where I remove some of the valve cover bolts, turn the motor over without plugs and you will see oil once all the air has escaped. Once you see oil and make a mess, put them back in and pump to the next part of your system which is probably oil cooler - same thing - leave a hose off and let the air out until you see it full, make a mess and move on, etc. Only then do I worry about if the oil psi guage shows pressure. Then fire her up!

FWIW

Jay Messenger
Muleshoe Texas USA

[Brands]

I have an '05 GSXR motor, and I always turn the motor over a few times before flicking the ignition on. I've always done this on all my cars. I can't say that it's necessary, but it is something I do. Certainly after an oil change this is a good idea. As you crank the engine you can 'hear' the oil pressure build by the change in note of the starter motor. I've raced bike engined cars for several years and never had a motor let go (knock on wood). Must admit though I'm now a little concerned by my cooling set up having read all the posts. I'm sure it's fine back in the UK, but in Georgia? I'm aiming to run the test day at RA next Friday so that should give me a better idea with warmer temps.

[RobLav]

Sean - the link to elephant doesn't come up.

[sidney]

This one should work:


http://www.elephantracing.com/oilhan...boilcooler.htm

[RobLav]

Thanks - got it.

[RussMcB]

This one should work:


http://www.elephantracing.com/oilhan...boilcooler.htm

Back when I was looking for an oil cooler, I wanted one that mimicked the inlet/outlet configuration of my VD RF-94 water radiators (inlet and outlet on one end). I saw the Setrab STD-150 and thought it'd be perfect, except for the almost $500 price tag (after buying fittings).

[RobLav]

Earl's makes one for a lot less than that. 81910 ERL or 81912 ERL. It doesn't mimic the radiator in/out, but it's close to the size.

[sidney]

I think Rob is running a B&M cooler. This is a similar setup to what we are now planning. Just an FYI that the Longs Tru-Cool cooler and the B&M are the same, just a different tag (and price point). Those marketing guys always find ways to charge more for stuff that has "race" in the title!

http://www.jcwhitney.com/autoparts/P...=group_listing

[RussMcB]

If a cooler is being used after a scavenge pump in a dry sump systen, I think coolers that have both fittings in either the top or bottom can trap air in the top (if fittings are on bottom), or leave some oil settled in the bottom (if fittings are on top).

The above holds true for a "full pass" cooler. (Not sure if that's the correct term. I'm referring to most race car oil coolers that have multiple paths within the cooler). I think the above is not true if you use the type of oil cooler (transmission?) that has a single tube that goes back and forth a few times. The transmission type has only a single path for the oil, so the chance of some oil or air staying in the cooler is far less. However, a disadvantage to the transmission type cooler is a longer, more restrictive path, so larger ID tubing in the cooler should be used.

I went with the transmission type because I could find it in my desired configuration (side inlet/outlet, -8AN fittings) and the scavange pump doesn't have that hard to work since the final destination (oil tank) is not under pressure.

Futhermore, I decided to cool scavenged oil rather than oil after the pump because the oil woul lose less pressure before it reached bearings. I also chose not to have the main pump 'pull' oil through a cooler (hard to prime, etc.)

That make sense?

[formulasuper]

One note I thought might be worth posting: [While reading this & other post topics concerning bike oil systems it is important to remember whether we are discussing wet or dry sump systems.]
I use a dry sump system on my Busa 1300cc powered Ralt that has -12AN lines & fittings thru-out from the dual scavenge pump outlet all the way back to & including the inlet fitting on the dry sump pan which feeds the pressure pump, as recomended by Sam Nelson, & have never had an oil system problem. It does seem to me that it is asking too much for the stock engine oil pump to pump the oil thru all the lines, which are much longer than on the original bike system, thru a larger cooler (or two), plus the oil filter & then still have enough flow & pressure to satisfy the engine's needs with it pulling a much heavier vehicle & at full throttle most of the time. (I don't know, just guessing.)