Proposed Pace Lap Change

[Eric Cruz]

Well, I guess I did it wrong, but everything worked out. On the pace lap at the first SARRC race at VIR this past Saturday, Ben Johnston was on the pole in an FA, and I was 2nd. Ben had troubles and pulled off into the South Paddock pit lane (pretty much exactly halfway around the course from S/F). So while I chased down the pace car and followed him down the back straight, this thread was running through my small mind. I really sat there and tried to remember the outcome of the discussion, and wondered what to do. My normal radio guy was not there, and my wife wasn't going to know the answer - although she did a fantastic job of calling the start for me in her first attempt. So I decided that I really didn't want to give the inside front row to the FE that I had worked quite hard to out-qualify, and if we left a hole on the front row we probably wouldn't get a start. So I moved to the right when we were to the point of forming up, and pointed him alongside me on the left (outside). He thanked me for that after the race, because he was not sure what to do either. Everybody else was apparently smart enough to do what they had to do, and we had a green flag.

I guess the bottom line is that clarifying the rule on the required procedure would be a really good thing. I guess changing sides was wrong regardless, but nothing was said to me by the officials. Has that rule change been effected yet?

Best regards,
Eric

[EYERACE]

can you still hear it????>>>........I WAS SEVENTH!!!!

[Dave Gomberg]

Did you or didn't you do it "correctly"? No and NO!

By moving out of your column, you violated the current rules and the proposed rules. Period. You should have stayed put. The guy behind the pole sitter would then have had to guess at what to do - either stay put (leaving a hole where the pole sitter was) or moving up to the front row. Either way, it is a guess and he is then at the mercy of whatever the stewards might or might not do. That's why there is a proposed rule change beginning 11/01/08.

Under the proposed rules, you should have stayed where you were and the guy who was behind the pole sitter should have moved up. Yes, it would have sucked for you. But, at least the other guy doesn't have to guess.

Dave

P.S. The reason we chose to "fill the hole" rather than to "leave the hole" is that it then becomes a tricky judgment call as to whether the car behind the hole has really held back far enough/long enough. And, it is even more difficult to make that judgment somewhere in the middle of the pack.

[RussMcB]

Eric,

Congratulations on your belated pole position.

Larry tried to make it easy for us to remember. He said,

"Simply stated, stay on the side of the track assigned by the splitter. Fill any gaps that may occur. Push the right foot down when you see green.".

If I were in your shoes at VIR, I would have debated myself, too. :-).

[Eric Cruz]

Dave,
I tried to make it fairly clear near the end of my post that what I did was wrong, regardless of how the rule might end up being clarified. I think Russ understands how that decision-making process may have happened - I never thought I'd find myself in that position, and I just made a command decision.

The point of my post was not to get blasted for being a bad boy - see above, in retrospect I realized the error. The point was to illustrate that a rules clarification is needed, so we are all on the same page. My guess is that the officials may have been a little confused as well, since they did not see fit to penalize me for it.

You did answer my question that the rules clarification has not been implemented, and won't be until after the Runoffs. That's odd - they think this won't happen again before that?

I guess the only real solution is to have everyone come to the grid with a car capable of at least completing the pace lap....

Best regards,
Eric

[Dave Gomberg]

Sorry, Eric. I didn't read your post carefully enough.

The reason it won't be in force until next year is that, in general, rules changes (as opposed to clarifications) require a member comment period and possibly revision before going to the BoD for final approval (usually at their August meeting). We knew that this one was going to be somewhat controversial - that is, it was more than a clarification. This is one of those situations that has no perfect solution. We had to choose one or the other possibility. We eventually went with the one that seemed be the lesser of two evils.

Dave

[Modo]

It just happened at a regional.....one guy pulled out and in to the pits determining it was too slippery for he and his budget.......because we were coming onto the main straight and green flag territory I chose to hold my position instead of swapping sides and jumping up a row....in this case too close to the starter, for the whole field to reform, it would have been a mess with each swapping sides and rows in some cases....funny, I recalled this apex discussion when it happened.......the starter may have seen the hole and was confused because he waited to the very last possibility to throw the green which rarely happens.............

[mousecatcher]

why not go back to single file, do another pace lap and re-form the grid?

[John Nesbitt]

I tried to make it fairly clear near the end of my post that what I did was wrong, regardless of how the rule might end up being clarified.

Eric is too modest to mention that he was party to a very sporting gesture during the Sunday race.

Anybody who was in the mid-Atlantic area on Sunday knows about the storms and tornadoes which blew through. As the afternoon's races began, we received a tornado watch for the Danville area (10 miles to the west, with the wind from the west). The SOM shortened the remaining races from 12 laps to 10, in order to end the day as quickly as possible.

I was operating groups 4 (SM) and 5 (Wings&Things). The tornado watch was upgraded to a tornado warning. The leading edge of the storm arrived as race 4 started. Race 5 started in heavy rain, with reports of lightning getting closer and closer. We had our fingers crossed to get 5 laps in so we could checker the race, but started getting lightning strikes within critical distance, and I Black Flagged the race with 3 laps run. We got everybody under cover just as the cell hit.

After the cell(s) had passed, and the storm settled into a steady rain, we were faced with the problem of how best to end the day quickly, rather than expose the flaggers and other volunteers out in the open to the risk of further cells.

The Chief Steward proposed that race 5 be checkered as it was when the BFA was thrown. After some discussion, the drivers unanimously agreed to do so.

As operating steward for group 5, and on behalf of the Chief Steward, I want to acknowledge the sportsmanship of Eric, Roger Pierce, Rossella Manfrinato, Tim Pierce, and Richard Franklin.

[D.T. Benner]

Now thats a novel concept I would like to see more often.

[Eric Cruz]

Thanks for the kind words, John, but it was really what I WANTED to do, at least on my part. While I would have liked to have gotten in a few more laps of rain practice (my competition from Saturday had gone home), once I had gotten out of the car, I didn't look forward to sitting back in a puddle of COLD water to drive around under full-course yellow. When I did get in to go back to the paddock, it froze my butt, despite dumping the bead seat before getting in.

And thank you for waiving impound - we'd been standing around in the rain long enough. It was a pleasure to meet you in person, finally.

Best regards,
Eric

[dereklola]

Back to the basic question - I really don't have an egg in this omelet but isn't the obvious thing (dangerous concept!) - (a) everyone stay on their assigned side driving close to the car in front (ie. filling gaps if they occur) EXCEPT (b) if pole man drops out then #2 becomes the leader and #3 should stay where he is (one row back) and not draw alongside #2?

This way only two guys need to think (#2 and #3) - nobody is gifted an advantage - it's simple - it's safe - and any deviation is easily observed.

Over and out.

[kma4444]

Although I think this is a done deal I thought I would pipe in. After I leave the grid I can also only remember one thing, which side of the track am I supposed to be on and there are times that I question my memory on that. I'm not switching sides, I'm closing up behind the guy in front of me. If someone drops out, I'm not paying attention to them or where they came from. I'm closing up on the guy in front of me. I don't care who is next to me or where they came from, I betcha I couldn't tell you who it is/was after we leave the grid. What I'm really paying attention to is what happens after the green flag. Maybe I'm too simple but there ya go.

If the pole guy drops out, that's just the way it is, I'm still not swapping sides of the track. If I qualified second and the third place guy now takes the preferred side of the track, then I have a little more work to do, I outran him once, I guess I'd have to do it again.

We had a discussion on the grid at a regional recently where I was supporting a customer. The tower was telling the field they would have to leave gaps where cars were supposed to be that didn't show. One of the dumbest things I have heard in a while, I guess the splitter was supposed to wave the ghost cars to their respective sides of the track and everyone on track would just know where to stay in line. Luckily, they backed down before they sent the cars out and just lined them up as they came out.

[NPalacioM3]

This just happened to me a couple of weeka ago. Qualified P2 in FC, there was an FB and 2 FS's running as well that weekend. The track conditions were really bad and the weather was horrible so both FS cars didnt go out. That put me in P3 overall, inside the second row. On the pace lap, we were all testing the grip on the track and the FB driver didn't like what he saw and had nobody to race with anyhow, so he pulled off at pit in. The now pole sitting FC car was on the outside and I moved up into the pole spot for the start.

Looking back, this was not fair and I really wasnt sure what to do at the time so just let it work itself out. But I could see this being a problem and something that needs to be defined a little better. The problem is that if something like what happened to us a few weeks ago occurs, can you imagine the mess it would be to have got the P1 FC driver over into the pole spot and me to get to the outside of row 1? It would have been very confusing to all the drivers in the pack and the entire grid would then shuffle. P4 overall would then be on the outside of row 2 and have to move to the inside once I moved up, then P5 who is on the inside of row 3 would have to move up and to the outside of row 2? On and on and on......it would be a mess.... So I agree with you that maybe the drivers should just hold their positions and leave that gap in the formation for the driver who retired.

[racer27]

About 1/3 of the races I've run in have had standing starts, so this is not an issue... But I agree, on a rolling start, keep it simple... leave the spot of the retired driver empty. In this way the only driver who gets the benifit is the one who would of been behind him. If we start switching sides or moving rows up it becomes confusing for the drivers and 1/2 the field could potentially gain an advantage.

[Charles Warner]

I am gobsmacked by the concept that any of our drivers can not adapt and handle a changing situation on the fly. How will they cope in race conditions, passing traffic, dealing with safety cars, split starts, wave-offs, etc?

IMO it should work . . . .

Exit the grid in turn

Follow the directions of the splitter (if available) - put a rock in your left or right hand, as appropriate, or put a piece of tape with an "L" or an "R" on it on your leg if you have trouble remembering which side you should be on.

Scrub your tires. (This puts everyone into a single file - obviating the need for a splitter.)

As the pace car/pole sitter slows the field for the start, and the pack forms into rows, take whatever position is appropriate when it is your turn, regardless of the side of the track. (For those drivers who assume the first position in a row, wave the next driver up along side of you - this also indicates you are not scrubbing any more and are watching him.)

If a car falls out after the pack is formed, deal with it logically as the situation presents. (My suggestion is that you maintain station and leave a gap.) You can not legislate every possible permutation.

What are you going to do? You have been split to the left side of the track (yep, even have the rock in your left hand). After scubbing the pack forms and the guy in front of you, the same guy you followed off the grid (please tell me you can at least remember who that is!) is on the left side with a gap to his right for you to assume, thereby filling out the row. Are you going to stolidly maintain the left side, because you were split that way (leaving a gap for someone else to fill, in front of you?) You may have missed a car falling out, or someone in front of you screwed up, or the pole sitter chose the opposite side - who cares? IMO again, you are going to assume the "next" slot in line safely in your turn. The guy behind should be waiting for you to assume your position.

IMO, If a logical approach is taken then a splitter is really not required. The pole sitter assumes whichever side he wishes (could change per track, per weather, per competitors, etc.) and people fall into line regardless of the side of the track. It ain't rocket science, folks. And, if someone can not keep their wits about them on the pace lap how much confidence do we have in them under hot conditions?

[John Nesbitt]

Approved by the BOD, as published in the Oct. Fastrack (p.23):

Item 9. Effective 11/1/08: Add the following to section 6.2.2.J.2:

Note: If a car leaves the course during the pace lap(s), all drivers in the column behind that car shall close up behind the cars in front of them to satisfy 6.2.2.G. Moving up under these circumstances is not considered as improving position or passing under yellow.

[MartinRacing98]

Move up and fill in the hole has been used in all kart racing I have done. It always seemed to work fine. Unless you are the pole, you will win some and lose some by this, but overall it will not make little difference. I think it is the best manageable way to handle it.

[Modo]

It's not like the starter has video contact of the group reorginizing.... or that the pace lap scrubbers will even notice being away from the pulloff guy.........the one position gain is for the birds, ask the guy that's supposed to be in the row in front of you what he thinks of your position into the first corner....it is very rare that this will happen and if it does I support honoring your original starting position next to your buddy after the grid spool-out..... even with an open spot for a good uncontested start..........hell once the flag drops you have ur one spot up but not in front of the guy that deserves to be in front of you.........the obvious flip to this is black flag all and regrid.......yeh right!!! whoops..old thread!!