Proposed Pace Lap Change

[Purple Frog]

What is everyone's thoughts on the GCR rule change proposed in the March Fastrack?

GCR

Item 1. Effective 11/1/08: Add the following to section 6.2.2.J.2:

Note: If a car leaves the course during the pace lap(s), all drivers in the column behind that car shall close up behind the cars in

front of them to satisfy 6.2.2.G. Moving up under these circumstances is not considered as improving position or passing under yellow.

[R. Pare]

I'd like to see what the definition of "leaving the course" is - if a driver puts 3 or 4 wheels off avoiding another car, does that mean that he loses position automatically?

2 wheels?

1 wheel?

Under what circumstances?

Needs some better defintions included.

[Purple Frog]

OK, suppose the car's driver raised his hand, pulled off at a workers station, and got out of the car. In that case, do you favor the current "missing man" formation, or do you favor closing up?

I'm against closing up, because it potentially moves a driver up to a position ahead of another driver who had qualified better.

[rickb99]

I see what Frog is wondering about. I think this assumes a car drops out of the race on the pace lap or pulls over and stops (not drop a wheel off the track).

Allowing (or requiring) close up like this moves people in one column up 1 qualifying position in the field. This is an effort to maintain the 'bunch' effect the starter is looking for in 6.2.2.G.

Like starters don't have headsets and know a car has left? Perhaps he thinks one car is holding back to 'jump' the start?

Sadly, with that hole that's there now, the first car back from the hole has a better chance of HAMMERING the pedal and therefore stands a chance of getting called for jumping the start (even if he didn't). This 'fill in' could eliminate that possiblity. But still, guys/gals gain qual. positions in the line where the drop out occured.

Interesting question.

P.S. === LOL Frog, you got the explain out as I was typing. Gotta use shorter verbage.

[Dave Gomberg]

The reason for the proposed change is that currently there is a conflict between two parts of the GCR - the one to which the proposed note is to be added and 6.2.2.G which requires that the pack be well-formed. The conflicting rules have raised real problems: penalties have been imposed in some instances when the hole has been filled (based on improving position and/or passing under yellow). In other places, drivers have filled the hole with no penalty. While it is true that in many cases the starter will know that someone dropped out, there are times when it is not known. Of equal importance is that drivers currently are not sure what to do and they get no help from the GCR.

There are only two ways to remove the conflict in the rules. One is to require filling the hole (the proposed change). The other is to require the hole not to be filled. In addition to the issue of the driver behind the hole getting a better jump (as pointed out above), there must be a guarantee that the starter knows that there is a hole AND where it is in the pack. Also, there are questions about what it means to keep the hole open: just how much distance must be kept between cars?

If you feel strongly one way or the other about this, write to the CRB.

Dave

[D.T. Benner]

OK,we form up in 2 rows side by side behind the Pace Car on the racing surface and move out when the Pace Car does. NOW we go to 1 line and start scrubbing tires. NOW driver X stops and gets out of his car so we all move up 1 position. NOW this is where some drivers get confused. When we go back to 2 lines abrest and approach the starter stand Everyone who was behind Driver X should have moved to the opposite Line from the one they were in as we rolled off behind the Pace Car at the beginning of the Pace Lap.
Sometimes I have seen drivers stay in the line they started in and get the whole field scrambled up.
I think That part of the "Missing Car" rule needs to be included in this "Clairifycation" .

[Purple Frog]

Dave, I see both sides of the issue. On one hand as a competitor I don't want to give up a position to the competition (e.g. I'm 4th and have to watch 5th move up to the 3rd position when the original 3rd car falls out). On the other hand as a starter it's a lot easier to call the start if the slot is filled.

D.T., Even if you are srubbing tires single file, you are supposed to form up in the line to which the splitter assigned you. Not switch lines because someone dropped out.

[RoadHazard]

I have a different problem with the proposed change. Let's say I qualify way back in the pack and someone up front drops out on the pace lap. I can't see that far up. I won't know that anyone has dropped out or that we've all been gifted a row. If the guy directly ahead of me seems to be too far ahead am I supposed to break ranks and follow him up? That seems awfully risky and a recipe for botched starts.

[RussMcB]

My opinion: Although it would be unfair for some people (as in Frog's example above), it does promote a safer and less confusing race start.

I think the situation will be rare enough that it is worth gaining the safety aspect in exchange for the infrequent unfairness.

[Tim FF19]

Sounds pretty simple. Stay in your line. If the car ahead moves up you can move up as well. The advantage to this is that is is very simple to understand during the start and does not require the corner workers and stewards to police anything. I think the open hole version is more likely to cause trouble at the start and it also requires the stewards to monitor a situation that they may not realize is occuring until the green flag has already been given.

FWIW, the proposed method is the way I have done it for the last 25 years. This came up at a race at MO about 10 years ago. A car dropped out about halfway through the pace lap from inside the third row (gridded 5th). Instead of moving up however, the car gridded 6th (outside of third row) moved over and took the spot causing all kinds of confusion in the next few rows. We all made the start somehow and afterward the affected drivers got together to discuss what happened. The guilty party (car gridded 6th) admitted he did not know what to do but decided it was in his best interest to take the spot. He realized later the confusion he caused behind him and agreed that staying in the assigned lane was the correct thing to do. We decided among ourselves that the proper course of action was to move up in your lane and fill the spot (I think someone said that that was what the GCR said and we agreed without pulling out the book). The stewards were not aware that any cars were out of place for the start. In every other start I have made when a car dropped out the lane moved up and filled the spot. I have never been questioned about this procedure by the stewards after he race was over.

[GR]

I'm all for staying in your assigned grid position and leaving the "hole". You worked hard for that spot

Having said that, I am also for all drivers being familiar with many things that are expected of them by both their fellow competitors and the GCR..... but I know that that seems to be asking a bit too much of some already........

So, for safety sake, moving forward to fill the gap may not be so bad an idea either.

[Ian Lenhart]

My solution:
When the hole is created, I think the car who was next to the car that dropped out should take a center position to avoid potentially losing a position or someone directly behind them from losing the position by a car filling the gap. I believe, the majority of the grid marshalls are looking for cars that fan out prior to the green at the start and are not focussing on the center gap where you can have two cars rubbing tires in the middle of the track. This way if the pole sitter drops out, the second qaulifer maintains the position and the third place qualifier and the ramaining cars in that line are not handed the gift of moving up 2 positions on the grid.

Ian

[Steve Demeter]

Stay in your position next to your original row mate.

[John Nesbitt]

I agree that the theoretical 'best' solution would be for everybody behind the gap to move up one place, but that's just not doable. Everybody would have to shift to the other lane --> collision guaranteed.

Having half the drivers behind the gap move up two places is less 'fair', but it plugs the gap and removes uncertainty.

[Dave Harmison]

Go back to standing starts!

[Chas Shaffer]

I've been on both sides of this scenario, the guy who could move up and the guy who lost a position when someone next to me moved up. I've also reacted both ways when someone fell out in front of me and regardless of whether I left a spot or moved up I got a better start than if someone was there. I actually think I got the best start when I left the spot open because I can go to throttle an instant sooner and know I'm not going to hit anyone. I've always thought it should be left to the discretion of the following driver. If he wants to move up go ahead, if he wants to leave a spot leave it, no penalty either way. Regardless unless you go to a standing start or re-grid the field it's an advantage. The easiest way to officiate it is to let them move up. We don't need another rule left open to interpretation by a steward.

I can hear the chief steward now ...... "Well Mr Silver, you left the space as you were suppose to but the starter thought you started a half second before anyone else so you are disqualified...."

[Joefisherff]

That would only happen at the Sprints - ask Mr. Coello. How about clarifying what an acceptable distance is behind the pace car?

[butch deer]

It sjhould be changed so we do a 4 abreast salute to the fans like the World of Outlaws and then resume a 2x2 spacing. That would confuse us all besides it's SCCA and there are no fans.
Butch

[Gerald Barrett]

Move up, fill the hole, minimize the confusion. The stewards and corner workers currently have enough to worry about. I've been on both sides of this in a race, and must say moving up does minimize confusion. I had a really wierd thing happen last year, I had problems in qualifying (a wheel and rotor were chewed up). I think I qualified 7th overall and Garey Guzman was 5th to be inside row directly in front of me. When we went from single file to 2 wide Garey accidently took the outside row. I stayed in the inside row as I was gridded and moved up to 5th on the pace lap. Everybody on the outside row got screwed and everybody on the inside row behind me made 2 spots. Now the FF pole, David Livingston was directly in front of me gridded 3rd. I got a great start and took the lead into turn one.
After the race, David asked me if I jumped the start. I said no, but I did make up 2 spots on the pace lap do to someones mistake. Hey Garey, What's your thoughts? Ha Ha!
BTW Garey didn't even realize he made the mistake until I told him what he did after the race. In the end, a few laps in my gearbox got stuck in 3rd, so I guess God made it right.
Ha Ha!
Gerald.

[mwalker]

someone drops out, maintain your position (i.e., do not improve your position: GCR). the starter should be aware of any cars that drop out, and the drivers responsibility is to maintain their qualifying position. how difficult is that? part of that responsibility requires the driver to not jump the start. i'll send my thoughts to the CRB.

marc

[Garey Guzman]

I think it's much more common for a driver to line up in the wrong spot than to drop out on the pace lap. Last year, I did it once (as Gerald was nice enough to point out ) and someone else did it at MO to my advantage.

At MO, the guy (who I will let remain anonymous) went to the outside, which was my position but I hung back so he could move over into the correct position. He never did so when we got on the front straight, I was in the better inside position. When someone missed a shift in the outside row, I ended up several positions ahead!

But to answer PFs question, someone is definately getting an advantage by improving thier qualifying position by closing up after the guy dropped out. However, I think a bigger advantage would be had if drivers attempted to maintain a "missing man" because that same person will be able to accelerate sooner and probably pass more than just the one person who out-qualifyied them.

I think this is a good rule change for simplicity and overall fairness, even though I could potentially be "demoted" one spot.

[RussMcB]

I think this is a good rule change for simplicity and overall fairness...

and safety.

[Josh Pitt]

I say fill the spot, all just move forward and keep your line.
safety first.
so what if someone gains/loses a spot.
Its just part of the uncertanty of racing that this guy dropped out of the race.
what if the guy stalled/missed a shift on the green flag9instead of dropping out) and the guy behind him got screwed on the start, IMO its no different, its just part of racing, things that are not predictable happen.
keep things safe first, definately keep things organized on the starts where there is the most potential for a "cluster F" to take place.
I do think that it is important for everyone to be on the same page, and i wish there were (short 10 minute mandatory)drivers meetings at EVERY event EVERY day to go over this type of stuff BEFORE anyone puts a wheel on the track.
When i used to roadrace motorcycles 20 years ago the drivers meeting was standard stuff each day before we ever took the track.
Sadly, i really dont see it much in car racing for some reason.

[rickb99]

Just an FYI:

The 'other club' we're involved with generally races to SCCA rules. However, in reading over a rule book section last night..... They do state to CLOSE it up if a car drops back on the pace lap. The drop car can only form up at the back of the pack if it manages to continue.

[Paul LeCain]

We've had it happen twice in the last two years that the pole position car dropped out. Under this rule, the third place car should move up?

As it hapened, in both cases, the 2nd place car moved over to pole. I have no idea what went on behind.

[Bill Steele]

In a momentum class like FF/CF having that open space in front of you an instant before things go green is a major advantage, far more than the 15' or so moving up gains you.

The only time I have ever been busted for jumping a start was because I had to swerve out of line (usually for mistiming the start and having the accordian effect catch me).

Without the move up rule, it makes it way to easy to "time it right".

So I like it.

[Dave Gomberg]

We've had it happen twice in the last two years that the pole position car dropped out. Under this rule, the third place car should move up?

Yes.

As it hapened, in both cases, the 2nd place car moved over to pole. I have no idea what went on behind.

There is no reason the 2nd place car should have done that. If everyone else in the field tried to do the same, there would have been chaos. Imagine if this had happened just as the pack came off the last turn before start/finish!! He should have stayed where he was. Under the current rules, the 3rd place car could have chosen to hold position (leaving a hole where the 1st place car was) or could have moved up. In either case, he could be right or wrong depending on the whims of the starter and stewards. If he moves up, he is risking a penalty for improving position or passing under yellow; if he leaves the hole, the starter might wave off the start.

That's why the rule needs to be fixed. We want it to be clear. We want it to be the same everywhere.

Dave

[Gerald Barrett]

Okay,
What if a guy drops out while we are still single file. Especially the leader. I say the 2nd place car becomes pole, but once we are 2 wide, just close the gap. Too late to shuffle everyone once we are 2 wide.

[Paul LeCain]

In both cases I mentioned above, where the pole position car dropped out, it happened while everyone was single file.

That's why the #2 car took the pole.

[Dave Gomberg]

In both cases I mentioned above, where the pole position car dropped out, it happened while everyone was single file.

That's why the #2 car took the pole.

Yes, but everyone behind the first few rows is left wondering what to do. When the cars left the grid, they were split left and right (or right and left). Drivers have an expectation that they will be on the "assigned" side when the field forms up into two columns. If the 2nd qualifier takes the "wrong" side, it screws up everyone else. Think of it this way: if it was the 4th car that dropped out, would you expect the 3rd car to move over (and everyone else)?

Dave

[Charles Warner]

Yes, but everyone behind the first few rows is left wondering what to do. When the cars left the grid, they were split left and right (or right and left). Drivers have an expectation that they will be on the "assigned" side when the field forms up into two columns. If the 2nd qualifier takes the "wrong" side, it screws up everyone else. Think of it this way: if it was the 4th car that dropped out, would you expect the 3rd car to move over (and everyone else)?

Dave

Dave,

You have to apply some common sense. Just becaues a driver was split to the left doesn't mean that is in concrete. We have to use our noggins once in a while and adapt.

[Dave Gomberg]

Dave,

You have to apply some common sense. Just becaues a driver was split to the left doesn't mean that is in concrete. We have to use our noggins once in a while and adapt.

Charles:
Tell that to the guys back in row 10 who have no idea what the guys up front are doing. And. then the starter waves things off because its a mess behind row 3 or 4.

Dave

[Charles Warner]

Dave,

It is encumbent on the drivers to look at the situation and make a decision. I think it is safe to say that most grids assume a single line after the split for the majority of the pace lap. When the pace car/pole car decide it is time to slow the field for formation the pole car takes his place (left or right as he chooses) and the others simply fall into formation in the appropriate place. (I advocate motioning to any driver who is to be along side that you are expecting him and making room for him.) You know whom you are following so get either next to him or on the next row, opposite side. Don't worry if you are not on the side that was indicated at the split.

Of course, this is made easier if drivers maintain a reasonable distance from the car in front. This has to be a group effort

[DaveW]

Charles,

I don't know about you, but I'm thinking about lots of things during the pace lap. I have enough trouble remembering which side to be on as it is (especially when we regroup into 2-wide quite late - this seems to happen quite often), without having to switch sides to move up. And if only one driver doesn't do this right, it'd screw up the whole field.

Therefore, I agree with Dave G. on this one.

[Charles Warner]

Charles,

I have enough trouble remembering which side to be on as it is (especially when we regroup into 2-wide quite late - this seems to happen quite often), without having to switch sides to move up. And if only one driver doesn't do this right, it'd screw up the whole field.

Dave,

I agree to a point. First of all, the formation should occur earlier, and the drivers have to be aware of what's going on. I think the situation of having a whole row (I.e. possibly as many as fifteen cars in a 32 car grid) ALL having to move one spot ahead would be more confusing and piss off a whole lot more drivers. We have to look at the possible ramifications. That means that it could be that fifteen drivers all improve their positions? I can see a collection being taken up to pay someone to drop out of the front row and start at the back. (tongue firmly planted in cheek here - I hope.)

[Stan Clayton]

I'm with Gee Dubya on this one...

(That's Gomberg and Weitzenhof... )

For the drivers up in the front rows, where one falls in the pecking order is probably pretty clear, but for us unwashed masses in the midpack and rear...well, I for one am thinking, "right side, right side, close it up, close it up!"

Besides, if it hurts your column half the time, by definition it has to help your column the other half the time. This is club racing, guys...form it up and have fun!

[Charles Warner]

Then make it abundantly clear:

UNDER NO CONDITIONS WILL A DRIVER START THE RACE FROM THE SIDE OPPOSITE THAT TO WHICH HE WAS DIRECTED BY THE SPLITTER. ALL CARS WILL CLOSE UP ANY GAPS TO MAINTAIN A 2 X 2 FORMATION.

I would also suggest some definition of the gap to the car in front. Much of the confusion is caused by the driver of Car #1 wanting to have his nose under the diffuser of the guy in front but his row-mate (Car #2) feels a one car length gap to the car in front is appropriate. So, Car #3 (the car behind Car #1) sees a good-sized gap in front of him and stuffs himself into it. This gives a row consisting of one side with one car (Car #2) and the other side with two cars (Cars #1 & #3), creating the situation we are trying to avoid. How confusing is that to the following cars? Do you also require that the two cars on each row maintain positions exactly equal with each other? Is the car that qualified ahead on the row the leader and, as such, determines the distance to the row in front, and his row-mate is required to keep station?

We can either legislate bugger-all out of the sport of rely on some forms of common sense.

[RussMcB]

IMO, the proposed wording seems pretty clear. It's simple, and therefore easy to remember.

Note: If a car leaves the course during the pace lap(s), all drivers in the column behind that car shall close up behind the cars in front of them to satisfy 6.2.2.G.

[Phil Green]

From a pace car driver's standpoint:

During a pace lap, there is typically "radio silence, unless something occurs that could affect the start of the race". The only thing that happens on the radio is the pace car and pack are called through the stations, up here, usually only the last few. So, the starter will likely have NO IDEA that there is a car off unless there was metal-to-metal and track blockage....at that point the pace car will get to lead another lap.

Another to consider is that the starters are looking for a jump start. One of the prime ways to spot this is looking for two headlights or two front wheels. If you can look down the line of cars and see both headlights or both front tires out of the line, be prepared to have a stewardly chat either during or immediately after the session.


From a racer's standpoint:

I agree with Dave W, Stan, and a few other brave souls that will admit that they have to work to remember where they are supposed to be. I'm nowhere NEAR as old as either of those guys ( ), but still have to think about who I am supposed to be next to, and try to remember! For those of us that like to play in the back of the pack, fill the gap and go on with life. If I know I'm in the right lane, I just pull up near the car in front of me and watch for

[Larry]

I never considered the splitter's instructions to be a "recommendation or suggestion." They are a requirement (although possibly difficult to enforce). As a minimum, a violation could occur for failing to follow the directions of an official.

The genesis of this whole thing was to resolve whether a driver was supposed to leave a gap if the car in front had dropped out. As written, the GCR didn't resolve this, so Dave et al tried to clarify the rule.

Simply stated, stay on the side of the track assigned by the splitter. Fill any gaps that may occur. Push the right foot down when you see green.

Larry Oliver
International Racing Products