Then there happens to be page 22 of the GCR that precludes prying eyes from getting to the bottom of this. May have some antitrust issues there though
Then there happens to be page 22 of the GCR that precludes prying eyes from getting to the bottom of this. May have some antitrust issues there though
And great, now we are going to strap motorcycle engines to or chassis, thats all I need, be like dirt-bike riding on 4 wheels
The club should not be the conciliator between Elan and QS. I could give two sheets about their balance sheets and business problems. And you are offering nothing in this argument that you cannot find on page one of this topic.Originally Posted by Indyman
That is the point
That was the point of the post. Steve Demeter did not read all of the posts. He was jumping in at the middle and coming to a wrong and misguided conclusion. From your first sentence you don't seem to have a grasp of the deal either. QSRE can not be given the right to sell only to who he wants.
Quiz
What do all these people have in common?
Dave W
Matt M
Art Smith
Lee Stohr
Steve Demeter
S Lathrop
R. Pare
Rick Kirchner
Ron B
Douglas Brenner
Garey Guzman
L Jennings
Rickb99
Chas Shaffer
Rick Silver
They are all against the manifold and are all engineers, very interesting.
Series owners: take charge!
Unlike my Fat Boy teammate who is fond of hyperbole, I recognize that there is a bit of truth and guilt on all sides. Elan and Quicksilver are not in business to accommodate each other, that is clear—their motives are clear. Dan Anderson wants to win—good for him.
SCCA is still a volunteer driven club which means it is difficult for them to please all constituencies and even harder for them to resist influence and do what is best for the organization in a business sense.
The F2000 Championship Series is an amazing success and may be the healthiest formula car series in the country. The owners, Guibord/Wright/Rand, have a responsibility to protect it. It is within their power to do so.
Many of us are like insolent teenagers who know nothing, but think their parents are lame. (Think Finelli and Reilly.) So, recognizing that, I plead to our parents (Guibord/Wright/Rand) to each reconsider their own entrenched positions.
Please ponder:
The SCCA has not been open wheel friendly.
Does the success of this series really depend on club racing?
Isn't it more important to control costs?
It is within your power to control this—take charge.
Respectfully,
an ill informed Fat Boy.
FC
I have no opinion on these rules issues as I am not currently involved in the class.
In reply to Mr Zebra, I have to say that F1000 engines turning 13,500rpm sound better than a Pinto. I've driven both, have you?
Lee I sorta kinda agree and it does seem pretty cool and I have looked into it and i sorta want to BUT something doesn't seem right with a motorcycle engine, trying to work through this though, it is mental block. Aren't you having issues with new and improved engines coming from factory
Any chance that we can keep this discussion on track and away from the [insert your adjective here] ? This is a pretty damned serious issue to most FC participants, and it would be appreciated if it was treated as such.
Fosh, why do you want the Manifold? Come clean. I bet you like the way it looks.
Do your customers like the way it looks? BTW what does it look like. Any Pics, come clean.
I am on Long Island can run over and take a look at it, the dyno sheet that is.
Chas the B Buster Finelli
What do all these people have in common?
Dave W
Matt M
Art Smith
Lee Stohr
Steve Demeter
S Lathrop
R. Pare
Rick Kirchner
Ron B
Douglas Brenner
Garey Guzman
L Jennings
Rickb99
Chas Shaffer
Rick Silver
How about "They all have balls enough use their real name"
Lee;
This is strictly a hypothetical question. In CSR what would you say if the dominant car was that described in 9.1.9.H? I fear that is what is being attempted in FC by the same people.
Most of the really good racing classes go through this same process every so often. I have been involved in similar discussions in FV, FF, and FC years ago. This is the process that makes a class good. And I'm certain that we will get a better FC class when this is done.
We are also in a process of braking in some new people to the process. I'm certain Doug Reed would never have allowed anything like this happen. And I am certain that in the future this won't happen again.
This issue will come to an end and the FC will emerge stronger.
An old friend who was both an SCCA Steward and long time driver once told me that each class gets the rules that they collectively want. If the participants are indifferent and want the "Club" to lead them they will get the rules they disserve.
For those new to the process, you can see how it works. And please try to make a positive contribution to the conversation.
You have your story wrong an anytime you would like to call the shop an find out what the real deal is feel free.
Erik Oseth
FC
Richard is right, stick to the issue.
I spent half the day reading all this so maybe I can participate on the AdVisory committee.
However, my head exploded instead.
Hello gents
Was searching the adverts over here looking for a new job and tripped over this site. Must say its a jolly frolic you blokes are having.
Word on this side of the pond was Elan put the final nix into your pro series. I don't know what you have now, I was let go right about the same time in '06 - have lost touch. I have to think those folks must have been upset. Can't imagine anyone doing business with them again, and again and again.
Word on the floor was they were going to build a new engine for the states that was 170HP. If your current motor isn't up to that - your up the Thames without a paddle I'm afraid. I was let go shortly after that - got caught looking up Paula's skirt one afternoon and they had to let me go.
Do any blokes know where Steve Jenner went? He left England a couple weeks ago - he was working on getting me my last weeks paycheck from that year.......still
Cheerio y'all - please elect George Bush again. The pound to dollar has never been higher. Doesn't help the price of our parts over there. But it makes it easy to send our kids over there and win everything in sight!
Sure would like to have a pint with Zebra. seems like a funny bloke
FC
Steve, we probably agree on these sorts of things. Similar issues happen in most SCCA classes except maybe DSR. There isn't much to argue about in a class with no rules.
Once you start trying to equalize performance by constantly fiddling weight, engine restrictors, engine size, etc. you have a tough deal on your hands. I don't know what the answer is.
First of all I do not have customers, I have not done anything with Dan since the Lime Rock race in Aug.
2nd of all, do not even think of coming to the south shore of the island to see me, I have a good reputation here.
3rd - I could give a rats ass if it gets in or not. I just love all the posts from people who write with such conviction in thier tone when most have no clue. For example, I have never read or heard anyone mention anything about a law suit..... who started that? is that rumer or did that get told to someone? and who was that.
Did Sandy brake a deal with SCCA. I do not know and I do not think 90% of the people here know.
Here is what I do know.
This crap has to stop but quick because the F2 Pro guys ( Wright & Gaboard) have got to be getting sick of this by know.(I know I was doing this once). They could say they have had enough and fold their tents and then you are all screwed.
Let the SCCA do what they do and then deal with it, the crying only makes it worst for everybody.
Too bad the Carters are so tight on flaming, even when well-deserved. So we have two guys, Indyman, and Foschi, with all of eight posts between them, five of which are in this thread.
They jump in the middle, spout a bunch of inflammatory crap, and take on a bunch of folks who have been stalwart supporters of just about everything open wheel and especially this site - including multiple national champions and champion chassis builders.
Yeah, we're all engineers. Some of us are pretty successful in that profession, and others are damn good race drivers. Just how do you think you guys would measure up against that group? You'd come up pretty short if your skills on that track and at work are as sketchy as your social and logical skills.
Funny thing is, you made a pretty good point - one that I was going to drop in here earlier today before I got busy cleaning my new lathe.
In my opinion, with such a sloppy rules process (and I'll throw just about all SCCA processes under "rules"), allowing any vendor exclusive or semi-exclusive rights is a risky proposition. What is the expectation? If Quicksilver and Elite are the only folks that can sell, service, and seal engines and parts for this application, then that comes with the expectation that anyone who shows up with long green should be able to purchase one.
That includes potential competitors. You don't have to extend credit, you could even put them at the bottom of the list behind folks that come to you all the time. But you should have to supply a reasonable delivery date. And since the club doesn't really keep track of chassis/owners/etc, that means you might end up selling to folks who want to put a Zetec in their hotrod or kit car - doesn't matter. Sales under such an arrangement should be auditable by the club if they believe there's been any indication of favoratism or unfairness.
Otherwise, what would keep a single supplier from creating a crisis that could prevent a competitor from qualifying for the runoffs or participating at the Sprints?
The bottom line is that there's a deal involved - a business relationship codified by the rules. And all such things should be controlled by a contract. And I bet, if there is a contract, that it's a piece of junk - or we wouldn't be here. Because if this was structured correctly the club could have called Sandy and said "refusal to sell parts to a potential competitor is a violation of your contract and subject to the following sanctions" and that should have been the end of this mess.
To me, spec suppliers of any kind is barely any different than enterprises. It's a well-intentioned effort to control costs, but intentions only go so far.
Lee;
But these classes are a real challenge. When the rules are good designing cars for these classes can be very rewarding. Look at the success of FV or FF. Both of those classes have or have had 2 engine options.
I can also remember when another class was at the brink of exclusion from national races. But it has recovered in a stunning fashion. I think you disserve some of the blame. But there have been some heated rules battles in that class as well.
Must say its a jolly frolic you blokes are having.
Are you for real? I have friends and family in England, no one actually speaks like that!
The posts are getting boring, can't wait till summer when Fosh and I are wearing Speedos sunning on the south shore beaches, picture that, Ugh.
Chas, beat a dead horse, Finelli
Too bad the Carters are so tight on flaming, even when well-deserved. So we have two guys, Indyman, and Foschi, with all of eight posts between them, five of which are in this thread.
They jump in the middle, spout a bunch of inflammatory crap, and take on a bunch of folks who have been stalwart supporters of just about everything open wheel and especially this site - including multiple national champions and champion chassis builders.
Yeah, we're all engineers. Some of us are pretty successful in that profession, and others are damn good race drivers. Just how do you think you guys would measure up against that group? You'd come up pretty short if your skills on that track and at work are as sketchy as your social and logical skills.
Funny thing is, you made a pretty good point - one that I was going to drop in here earlier today before I got busy cleaning my new lathe.
In my opinion, with such a sloppy rules process (and I'll throw just about all SCCA processes under "rules"), allowing any vendor exclusive or semi-exclusive rights is a risky proposition. What is the expectation? If Quicksilver and Elite are the only folks that can sell, service, and seal engines and parts for this application, then that comes with the expectation that anyone who shows up with long green should be able to purchase one.
That includes potential competitors. You don't have to extend credit, you could even put them at the bottom of the list behind folks that come to you all the time. But you should have to supply a reasonable delivery date. And since the club doesn't really keep track of chassis/owners/etc, that means you might end up selling to folks who want to put a Zetec in their hotrod or kit car - doesn't matter. Sales under such an arrangement should be auditable by the club if they believe there's been any indication of favoratism or unfairness.
Otherwise, what would keep a single supplier from creating a crisis that could prevent a competitor from qualifying for the runoffs or participating at the Sprints?
The bottom line is that there's a deal involved - a business relationship codified by the rules. And all such things should be controlled by a contract. And I bet, if there is a contract, that it's a piece of junk - or we wouldn't be here. Because if this was structured correctly the club could have called Sandy and said "refusal to sell parts to a potential competitor is a violation of your contract and subject to the following sanctions" and that should have been the end of this mess.
To me, spec suppliers of any kind is barely any different than enterprises. It's a well-intentioned effort to control costs, but intentions only go so far.
Wow! You almost hurt my feeling.
I have no idea who Indyman is but I know what I have done in this business. Your posting of over 1500 times tell me everything I need to know about you.
Fosh you only have one feeling
Fosh can we build sand castles
[quote=Rick Kirchner;165251]Too bad the Carters are so tight on flaming, even when well-deserved. So we have two guys, Indyman, and Foschi, with all of eight posts between them, five of which are in this thread.
They jump in the middle, spout a bunch of inflammatory crap, and take on a bunch of folks who have been stalwart supporters of just about everything open wheel and especially this site - including multiple national champions and champion chassis builders.
Rick, I don't know Indyman but I do know Mike Foschi. Mike's a good guy and if you don't know him, you haven't been around F2000 long enough!
Mike Agnifilo
Stonebridge Sports & Classics ltd
15 Great Pasture Rd Danbury, CT. 06810 (203) 744-1120
www.cryosciencetechnologies.com
Cryogenic Processing · REM-ISF Processing · Race Prep & Driver Development
Yea, I only have one left and did not want to waste it here. I broke my own rule by ever getting on here again.
rules
Steve,
A set of Formula rules like FF, FF2000 (single cam days), F1000, DSR can be tremedously fun for us engineers. Give us the same rules for everyone and let the best man win.
The DSR controversies of the last few years are of a different nature, better not start that here on this topic.
7 pages... geez.louise...
sorry, 8 pages
Hey guys,
Just vote your heart on the matter, write the letter. If you need the links or the address its 2 pages ago and on the other post in this tab.
Perhaps a new thread for personal attacks or general beatings???
Far from it squire. I'm as real as the cliffs in dover. We all talk like a Benny Hill skit in my flat. My uncle in fact was one of the knights that say ni. I don't know where you have family - but it sounds like they don't cheer for my club.
Sorry to say I have very few posts as well.
Don't trust Elan gents, they screwed me and 4 vendors here. They don't get peices made here anymore. Would like to stay up and chat - but I have an appointment in the AM to see a barrister
It is a jolly good frolic to read though, don't you think?
Be in London Mid March, staying on Knights Bridge, any chance to get a Pint and Formula Ford ride, in that order.
Chas Finelli
I say old chap, you are quite mad. But across the way from Harrods is a lovely pub. The keepers name is Ms Moist. A few pints from her and you won't remember the ford ride . wink wink nudge nudge eh?
enough already
Phil, enough already. we all sent letters. we will personally attack or beat anyone we want too. It's a free country.
It is a jolly good frolic to read though, don't you think?[/quote]
Meant no offense, of course. Have close family in Ramsden Heath near Billericay, and friends in Princes Risborough, Buckinghamshire, and Formula Renault friends in Wimbledon.
Love to hear your insights into Van Diemen--they're a real mystery to us here.
Best,
Thom Reilly
manifolds, what?
These posts are making me forget what I was worried about. Keep them coming ... fun stuff.
Thanks ... Jay
Thanks ... Jay Novak
313-445-4047
On my 54th year as an SCCA member
with a special thanks to every SCCA worker (NONE OF US WOULD RACE WITHOUT THE WORKERS)
Man, If I have to have 2 intakes to win next year I guess I couldn't run the Season for $50k again. There goes that plan....
Foschi and Finelli, can I come tanning on the South Shore in speedos? I could probably pick up some chicks since I'd be the only guy within 100 miles that talks normal...
Also, If I make it to VIR, I would like to organize a Friday night campfire, everyone holding hands, singing Coombayah, what a way to start the season...
I can assure you that you would be a big hit at Cherry Grove beach with the natives. Come on out and I will get you a free ride on the ferry.
I've heard that one before, whats next? Something about your Chevy work Van with free candy and puppies too?
It looks like an Econoline to me....
//edited for moderators pleasure..
The Pines likes skinny little boys
[quote=Cole Morgan;165278]Man, If I have to have 2 intakes to win next year I guess I couldn't run the Season for $50k again. There goes that plan....
Cole,
You didn't see the fine print in the contract, you signed off on all rights to photos and endorsments, Rob was able to sell enough pictures to wallpaper the master bedroom at Never-Never Land to make the season profitable. $$$$
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