I did not mean to imply that two wheels off was cheating. What I mean is, people will push taking leeway with every inch they don't get in trouble for. You can only bend the rules so much and if every car is going two wheels off and two on the curb, you know someone is going to go a little farther.
if you're the guy in back that just got 'dusted' by the guy who put off his two wheels........don't whine or think 'we need a rule'....next time maybe the guy in back should qualify a little faster and then return the favor. that's racing. many many times it can come down to how you qualified, not how you raced....the guy that started fifth and turned the fastest lap of the race but only finished second could have started first but they messed up in qualifying somehow....and therefore doesn't deserve the pole or the win. the race doesn't always go to the fastest.....but a qualifying pole more often than not does go to the fastest.
Charles,
I simply stated what I believe to be the 'reasoning' behind the two different wheels off rules. Do I agree with that? NO. With few exceptions, the fastest way around a race track is by using the pavement.
If apex's are a problem, go back to the 1960's and put a stack a tires at the apex. Or ring the inside edge with Jersey barriers (used some places). Now try cutting that Batman!
If a guy goes wide into dirt leaving a corner (once in a while and controls the car) I don't care. Chances are he's lost a couple 100th's or 10th's of a second getting it back on.
As an F&C guy, I am the 'servant' of the Steward with just a touch of independent discretion. As a racer I say let them race to the National rule. The consistant application of the existing rule as per the GCR (4 off or no call) is something that has to be dealt with at levels WAY above my humble involvement.
Last edited by rickb99; 02.06.08 at 6:28 PM.
CREW for Jeff 89 Reynard or Flag & Comm.
Exactly a solution I witnessed to the straight lining of a chicane at Cal Speedway just a couple of years ago. Warnings at drivers' meetings weren't heeded. Larger temp curbing was put in, but someone with more than 3" of ground clearance (many tin tops) could just straddle them. A stack of tires 5 high at the apex stopped that practice.Originally Posted by rickb99
Most so-cal tracks are in the desert and therefore have rocks off course. I've had two busted windshields and a holed radiator from someone peppering (different than dusting) the track. I have very little patience for someone who purposely peppers the track as a James Bond-type move. I have no problem with a couple of race probation or a black flag to ensure I am not subject to the same treatment in the future. Call it insurance, good return on investment, vigilanty tactics, or immature...it works.
Eyerace,
Not sure if you are serious or not. I can qualify P1 and have someone in the P5-P8 battle pepper the track with rocks. Next time around I see this, and then take a rock to the windshield, helmet, radiator from the innocent guy in front of me trying to find his way through all the debris kicking something up bouncing right into my path.
Back in the mid 1980's when the FC and FF grid was always over 50 cars at any regional at IRP, we often had informal drivers meetings, just for us. Usually, Bruce May(a racers racer) would organize them and he fixed the problem of drivers dragging rocks on the track when they took the "fast" line thru T4-5. We were all getting tired of fixing the holes in our radiators so Bruce threatened to "retallate" if he ever saw any formula car do that. No one knew what Bruce would do but we were too afraid to find out so we all stopped taking the fast line thru T4-5 except for one FF Swift driver, Tony George. So 10 years before he tried to screw up Indycar racing ,Tony was screwing up club racing! Bottom line is that there should be more formula car driver meetings to fix these problems.
Last edited by Paddy O'Brien; 02.05.08 at 11:57 PM.
quick...serious about what?.........serious about qualifying?.......that session can determine the race outcome, so one had better be serious about qualifying...not sure what you're questioning..........your point is well made...and that was....you can be P1 and still get trashed from the P5 vs P6 battle on your next lap.....true.........but that's racing......and.....if you're P1......on the next lap, maybe you see the debris and avoid it whereas some behind you won't...and on occasions there would be no avoiding it.....these two examples illustrate how that's the luck in racing....we all agree it takes a little luck. no one's ever tried to list an all encompassing list of what 'luck' is > the 'dusting' and it's avoidance is but one example. i've had my share of on track garbage come my way over the years but i accept it and the expense it causes as part of racing. i have never seen the car ahead of me appear to try and kick up crap but the cutting an apex is a judgement call. if it appeared to me to be purposefull i'd be in their face one on one in the paddock after the session. these days i do carry protest money and the paperwork to the track, never used it so far. all i can do is try to race clean myself.....but i'm not going to whine to others if caught behind someone in an incident......if it appeared to me to be purposefull even after the one on one, that's why i carry the money and the protest paperwork.
[quote=Paddy O'Brien;163936]Back in the mid 1980's when the FC and FF grid was always over 50 cars at any regional at IRP, we often had informal drivers meetings, just for us. Usually, Bruce May(a racers racer) would organize them and he fixed the problem of drivers dragging rocks on the track when they took the "fast" line thru T4-5. We were all getting tired of fixing the holes in our radiators so Bruce threatened to "retallate" if he ever saw any formula car do that. No one knew what Bruce would do but we were too afraid to find out so we all stopped taking the fast line thru T4-5 except for one FF Swift driver, Tony George.quote]
But you didn't finish the story! Did Bruce May "retaliate" against Tony George??
Jim
Jim
I wish I understood everything I know.
Bruce did talk to Tony about dragging rocks on the track and when I asked Bruce about what Tonys reaction was Bruce told me that Tony had absolutely no reaction at all! If nothing else, Tony is a weird guy, back then he was a weird guy "enhanced" with drugs! Tony was'nt going to be in club racing very long so Bruce just left him alone. A couple years later I shared a test day with Tony and his supervee at IRP and he still stuck his left wheels off the track at T4-5 and let us FC guys clean the track for him. I mentioned it to him during lunch break and he seened suprised to hear that, in the afternoon sessions he still drove off the track there and made it tough for the rest of us.
Eye,
I was referring to the "qualify ahead of him, then" tone to your solution. I do take qualifying very seriously and feel that many of my wins started in qualifying. Hard as I try, I can't always qualify P1 and that doesn't mean I haven't earned the right to be raced clean.
Dusting the track while in a tight battle has only happened to me a couple of times. I feel it is more of a psych attempt to shake someone than it is actually effective because he just put the same crap on his tires he is putting on yours. He is the one dropping the wheel and likely to upset his car more than I am. I have no problem with being on the receiving end of that tactic. When it doesn't work, he is the one more rattled than I and he's already made it clear to me that he is worried/racing in his mirror.
I am speaking to the deliberate, hang two wheels off the inside and throw a bunch of rocks up into the grill and windshield into the guy behind you BS.
I do accept the crash damage, rocks in the windshield and radiators as part of the cost of racing. I also understand that some of these things can be expensive and not of my own doing. I have NEVER asked anyone to pay for any damage to my car no matter how boneheaded or purposefull the move. I have only found it neccessary to make it very clear to two people (Hi HM and DM) in my 19 years of racing, that if they can't race me clean I'll take them out of the race (in so many words). Only HM was naive enough to think I wasn't serious. Yes I did get DQ'd and he DNF'd. It cost me some points and some money, but we raced very clean for the remainder of the season with some very tight battles. Wish it didn't have to come to that, but it was quite effective.
To me, it is akin to the school yard bully situation. You can get picked on and do nothing and continue to get picked on. You can go to the principal and likely still get picked on in the future (possibly worse), or you can make sure that bully finds an easier target in the future even if it causes you a little trouble or pain.
quick - i think we're agreed - it's just that tough question of 'what do you do with the driver that continues purposefull action' - and i like your apparent analogy of protest papers and the school principal - all in all i prefer the 'word to the wise' instead back in the paddock, that's why it's my first alternative.
So far it looks like just me and Beartrax strive to keep our cars on the "road"... Why in the hell design a race course and not drive it as it was intended??? Most other sports have an "out of bounds" why not us?
We do have an "out of bounds", it is the question of how we define following the course and going "out of bounds"
As far as driving and designing the race tracks. "They" design them to be fun and challenging. It is our job to get from start to finish as quickly as possible without going "out of bounds" whatever that is.
Making analogies to other sports: there are times when stepping one toe on the line is out of bounds and other times when all you need is one toe in bounds. Same with baseball, the ball bounces fair and then goes foul, it is still a fair ball.
You can add me to the short list of those who strive to keep all 4 wheels on the hard stuff...only because I find 2 off as either a)slower or b)bad sportsmanship.
Amen Quickshoe...
Interpretation of 6.8.3
Per 2008 GCR rule 6.8.3 Off-Course Excursions:
"The driver is required to follow the pavement or marked course during a competition, and shall not gain an advantage from an off-course excursion. Unless otherwise provided by Supp Regs, whenever a driver leaves an artificially marked course or an airport circuit with all four wheels, he shall re-enter the course at the same spot where he went off, and cannot simply re-enter further down the course, subject to the directions of the corner worker controlling re-entry."
I'm confused. I don't consider a road course (e.g., Road America, Blackhawk Farms, Heartland Park) to be artificially marked courses, and thus sentence two DOES NOT apply to them in my interpretation. The first sentence does not give specifics regarding how many wheels off constitutes an off-course excursion.
Joke
This thread has gone beyond any reasonable conversation!! You can either direct the car or you can't. Some can, some can't, resulting in the predominance of the issues.
Last edited by race95; 02.08.08 at 6:09 PM.
racehailey
UMmmmmm,
Last edited by stonebridge20; 02.15.08 at 1:41 AM.
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I like your thinking race95.
What corner??
I would admit to using all the terrain on occasion if it was quicker, but with curbing and all in an open wheel car it is generally just hard on the parts. I was just trying to point out for some, I think....well lets turn up here somewhere, 'cause the track goes to the left or the right.
Last edited by race95; 02.08.08 at 6:07 PM.
racehailey
Hi Mike - I'll have to admit that was unplanned. I looked at the data later and saw 121mph with all 4 off. If I had reentered at the point I went off I would have had to back up about a 1/4 mile. I do not recomend it as the fast way around. The bellhousing/clutch was so packed with grass that the clutch would not work coming up the hill at pit in. We ended up pushing the car to tech. In retrospect, I should just be happy the car was in one piece. I can't imagine what it looked like from your car..
Tim
If at first you don't succeed, skydiving is not for you.
anything paved that you can safely put the car....absolutely. curbs....at your own risk(and here's something to think about... maybe to others). anything else (intentionally) .... absolutely not....ric. my 2 cents
ps. Mike, i would like to set up a ring for you and skip at big bend and sell tickets so i could afford one of those memberships. caviar and cocktails...aahhh...
Please note:
The second sentence of the GCR pertaining to an "artificially marked course or airport circuit..."
It means what is says. It's a throw back to the days of racing on airport runways and huge shopping mall parking lots.
WE here, still race on an airport (artificially marked circuit). The simple reason for that sentence is to prevent guys running a 1/4 mile STRAIGHT down a RUNWAY then reentering the course while missing a series of turns. For example, this would apply to Cleveland.
It does NOT mean drive backwards or reverse course at Road America and reenter the track where you left it 595 feet back.
Last edited by rickb99; 02.07.08 at 8:17 PM.
CREW for Jeff 89 Reynard or Flag & Comm.
If I had a nickel for every time I've heard sentence #2 quoted by racers and crew members at Road America and BFR, I could buy a set of sticker tires. Seems to be a little confusion on my side of town.
How does this sound as a rules clarification for sentence 1:
The driver is required to keep all four tires on the pavement or marked course during a competition. Placing one or more tires off the pavement or marked course may be interpreted by Officials as an attempt to gain a form of an advange (including but not limited to: greater vehicle speed, passing, throwing debris up and/or on track). Any driver who fails to keep all four tires on the pavement may be black flagged and/or penalized (See 7, Penalties).
This makes the off-road excursion rule similar to the "6.8.1 On Course Driver Conduct" rules. Corner workers can then decide if the off-roading has exceeded a subjectively tolerable level, no different than avoiding physical contact / right to racing room / abrupt changes in direction / blocking.
Sounds pretty well worded to me.
Racer Russ
Palm Coast, FL
Sounds like a sodding sea-lawyer to me. Lets just give away all of our discretion to those on the sidelines. This ain't an issue folks. If you feel someone is doing something deliberately dangerous then either talk to him or protest him. Stop trying to legislate every miniscule part of the sport. Every time we give away part of it thusly we diminish its fun factor. Right now the Stewards have the discretion to regulate track activity based on safety. Leave it to them without trying to state all possible scenarios.
I've been racing off and on (pun intended) since 1974 and this has never been an issue.
Charlie Warner
fatto gatto racing
'Cause there's bugger-all down here on earth!
Well said Mr Warner, I couldn't agree more with Charles, and that is from an open wheel racer since 1968.
And I love Mike Agnifilos flogging a dead horse......
that makes two of us...but i hate seeing the balls cut out of the track...ric
Going over this thread, I counted a total of 8 who are content with the current status, and 11 who are unhappy.
“This ain’t an issue folks.” Nonsense. If it wasn’t an issue, this thread would have simply died at three responses, not three pages.
“Stop trying to legislate every miniscule part of the sport.” I don't consider intentionally and repeatedly driving with two tires off the road a “miniscule” part of road racing. The first word in road racing is Road.
"Every time we give away part of it thusly, we diminish its fun factor.” Along this line of thinking: “I’d be a much better tennis player and have more fun if it weren’t for those #%$@ white lines they painted on the court. Next thing you know, the rule makers will start mandating how high the frickin’ net has to be.”
“Right now the Stewards have the discretion to regulate track activity based on safety.” Road America is starting to regulate this issue by planting plastic pipes vertically inside of the apexes. As Quickshoe stated earlier, Cal Speedway stacked tires 5 high, and Indy has portable tire walls. Doesn’t sound very safe to me. Instead, why not simply penalize the guilty parties? In addition to looking god-forsaken hideous, the day will soon come when one of these obstacles does more harm than good.
"...but I hate seeing the balls cut out of the track...ric” Now this I agree with.
I don't know where that puts me Jon, but nothing makes me "happier" than being in a race car. (Well just about nothing else) The only time I've been "unhappy" is when the thing broke down or caught on fire... I hate standing at the side of the track watching everyone else go by.
Out of all the racers that read these threads we only have a handful that care enough to gripe about it. I take the deafening silence from the vast majority as a tacit indication that they feel it is not an issue that needs attention.
If you feel that strongly about it make a request for a rule change through the proper channels instead of complaining in a forum where nothing can be done.
Charlie Warner
fatto gatto racing
'Cause there's bugger-all down here on earth!
In a super bike race the organizers decided to seperate the pit run from the race track with hay bales. A rider died before they were removed. I agree that racers should act before the officials do.
I don't think Jon should be chastised for asking people's opinions, I certainly wouldn't call any of his statements or questions complaints, and I'm not even sure he wants a rule change. Maybe I skimmed over the posts too fast.
Besides, if you or anyone wanted to request a rule change (regarding anything, not just this topic), wouldn't it be in everyone's best interests to have discussions about it first? Any rule change is going to have a better chance of being a good one if it has positive consensus and momentum before it is requested and considered, wouldn't it?
Racer Russ
Palm Coast, FL
Thanks you Charles !
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Russ,
No chastisement of the person - just the concept (and all of the sea-lawyers out there.) And, I'd have to think that anyone who went so far as to compose a suggested rule change to the book and present it in legalese probably wants the rule changed. And, No, I don't think bandying the issue (or any issue) about in this or any forum increases the chance of a consensus or of getting the rule change considered. A rule change is not about a consensus on a bulletin board that only represents less than (a guess here) 5% of the racers. Besides, getting this group to have a consensus on anything is like herding cats.
I sense a lot of personal issues in many of the remarks made by several drivers. Maybe they individually have perceived an issue with a/some driver(s) in their groups. In that case the appropriate Stewards have the power and duty to take caare of these issues. Major changes to the rule book, including re-defining certain aspects of the sport in a more restrictive way, should be limited to those issues that are creating a wide-spread situation that the vast majority of participants feels needs attention in a regulatory way.
Not every issue needs regulation. The less we can have the more we will self-police and create a more respectful and open system. We don't need racers running to "mommy" to take care of every possible situation. I prefer the reasonable Marine theory.
IMO, the best way to proceed along the lines of changing the rule is to officially made the request to the Board. After the Request for Comments action comes out then it could be the time for cogent discussion.
Charlie Warner
fatto gatto racing
'Cause there's bugger-all down here on earth!
Russ, I agree with you that ApexSpeed is an excellent place to get stakeholder feedback BEFORE going to the rules committee. I'm not so full of myself to think that my opinion or my wording will be the best.
Ultimately, what I'd like to see is an end to intentional and repeated off-roading. If that requires a rule change, then yes indeed, I'm all for a rule change, including better definition of an "off road excursion" (eg, one/two/three/four wheels off the track surface, including/excluding the rumble strips). I posted my first draft in a previous thread, and look forward to feedback from those who also wish to pursue this.
Gotta run, mummy needs help reefing the main sail.
This thread is like a car wreck. Obviously someone got dirt kicked in their face and they're pi$$ed about it. Grab a hand full of sack and go talk to the guy! The GCR is thick enough already.
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Thank you Mike
Seriously, how sad is this thread? Be careful what you wish for...everyone wants a rule change until it affects them. Wait until your victory is taken away because you dropped your left rear wheel on lap 11 (as sighted/reported by the cornerworker).
People should toughen up. Two years ago, Mirl passed me into the bus stop at WGI by jumping the curb on the entry with two laps to go. I'm not talking 2 wheels on the curb at entry....I'm talking all 4 wheels over the curb, car 3 feet in the air, landed, maintained control, and stayed in front of me for the win. I had two choices....
1. Whine to the stewards
or
2. Tell everyone that I gave Mirl no room, he made the best pass I have ever seen, take my trophy for second and shake Mirls's hand because he earned it....
I chose 2
SEDAN / TIN-TOP / DOOR-SLAMMER / CAGE
Some clarification is in order:
THE ISSUE IS NOT OCCASSIONAL OFFS BY FORMULA CARS. This bears repeating for the speed readers:
THE ISSUE IS NOT OCCASSIONAL OFFS BY FORMULA CARS.
Likewise, NO ONE is suggesting penalties for occassional offs for any class of cars.
To recap: Several members have noted a trend in repeated and intentional off-roading of SEDANS, similar to the picture shown below. Note that the car in the picture is a SEDAN.
This was very evident at the '07 Runoffs, where SEDANS were noted to be repeatedly and intentionally off-roading, most notably at Turn 9. Seven time SCCA National Champion Dave Weitzenhof noted earlier in this thread that "Dirt and mud on the track was a BIG problem" at the Runoffs.
Due to repeated and intentional off-roading of SEDANS, several tracks are now taking matters into their own hands, and placing obstacles adjacent to the apex to prevent off-roading.
My objective in starting this thread was to propose clarification of rule 6.8.3 such that repeated and intentional off-roading was prohibited, without penalizing the occassional/inadvertant off. I admit this will require officials to make subjective decisions, but argue that the same is true for the other four "Driver Conduct" rules (6.8.1.A - 6.8.1.D).
If enforced properly, tracks would not feel it necessary to install aforementioned obstacles at the apex, and formula cars will have less debris to deal with on the track surface.
come one you guys, the question is if you want to be considered a road racer or off road racer, if that's your desire fine. but to win a race by going off course and flying 3+/_ in the air to win a race, well obviously that shows your areobatics ability.... but is that REALLY the way to drive a race car...
Yeah, you're right. It's not that big of a deal if you lose a race because someone cheats. What a bunch of sissies.
Racer Russ
Palm Coast, FL
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