Should roadracers intentionally put two wheels off?

[Jon Jeffords]

I must be getting old.

It started last year when I noticed three or four "pipes" (pvc?) that were planted vertically just inside the apex at Road America's turn 13. When I questioned as to why these potential visor-busters were installed, I was told it was to discourage sedans from going two-wheels off around the inside of the apex.

It was reinforced at the RunOffs this year, as the sedans made turn 9 a joke. Under dry conditions, it appeared the fastest way around that right hand corner was to go almost completely off the track on driver's right, with your left tires just barely on the inside edge of the rumble strips.

My philosophy is that road racing should be done on the road. The occasional slip off at the apex or corner exit can be expected, but intentionally and repeatably putting one's tires off the track surface just rubs me the wrong way.

In addition to being against the spirit of the road, it also drags a whole lot of crap on the track for the next group to deal with.

The only solutions I can come up with are: more aggressive rumble strips, a black flag for intentionally going off track, or keep my mouth shut and go with the flow.

Then again, I don't get Speed channel; perhaps this technique is now the accepted norm.

[Douglas Brenner]

I complained about this at Laguna Seca. In the sedan races, most of the cars put two wheels way off the inside of the track every lap, especially the 4 wheel drive cars like the Evos. Laguna Seca is really now a motorcycle course and they have those rumble strips for motorcycles that you can run over with no problem and lots and lots of sand traps. I complained and was told by our stewards (who don't race or haven't raced since God was a boy) that two wheels off was not driving off course. Darrell Benner and others spun off because of this mess. Since the tin tops rule the seem to make the rules and the powers that be don't seem to have a clue. I just don't go to Laguna Seca any more.............and I keep learning the hard way that just because we drivers pay the entry fees and show up to race, we are still expected to keep our mouths shut or suffer the consequences.

[Roger Eade]

Of the world, its an off, and culd get you black flagged or a time penility, and as I have read in your regs a little while ago, thhe wording is similar, one thing a I do know is this, if you want to complain, write it down and quote chapter and verse of the reg's, and of course imutter about lawyers etc under your breath, and you will find that you have their full and undivided attention, the fact of the matter is that if it is in the book, they MUST enforce it.

Roger

[Paul LeCain]

This question comes up now and then. The SCCA GCR doesn't say much about it:

6.8.3. Off-Course Excursions
The driver is required to follow the pavement or marked course during a competition, and shall not gain an advantage from an off-course excursion. Unless otherwise provided by Supplementary Regulations, whenever a driver leaves an artificially marked course or an airport circuit with all four (4) wheels, he shall re-enter the course at the same spot where he went off, and cannot simply re-enter further down the course, subject to the directions of the Corner Worker controlling re-entry

The first part is sometimes interpreted as disallowing 'two wheels off'. Most times, two wheels off seems to be sort of OK

[RussMcB]

I've always thought it was cheating, with varying degrees. If you're alone on the track during qualifying and cut a corner, touching tires to dirt - most people wouldn't complain about that. (I liken that to a Showroom Stock racer with a missing plastic interior trim piece).

But if you're in a tight battle, straight-lining a corner and kicking up rocks, I would say that's poor sportsmanship and unfair at the very least.

[Douglas Brenner]

I showed our officials the GCR and they say two wheels on is still on. I was not complaining about incidental offs. These people were two wheels way in the dirt every lap.

[Robert J. Alder]

Heck, the famous Zarnardi pass several years ago at the Laguna Corkscrew on the last lap was four wheels off thru the corner. While very exciting (and even premeditated according to Alex), I never understood why his win wasn't disallowed.

As to consistently two off, seems the rule's intent is clear. Stay on the track.

[Douglas Brenner]

As to consistently two off, seems the rule's intent is clear. Stay on the track.

You'd think, wouldn't you!

[DaveW]

As to consistently two off, seems the rule's intent is clear. Stay on the track.

You'd think, wouldn't you!

As previously posted, no one apparently even made an attempt to enforce that at the Runoffs. Dirt and mud on the track was a BIG problem.

IMO, (of course w/ an FC with less than 1" ground clearance, you pretty much have to stay on the track) all wheels on the track at all times, except for mistakes or emergencies, should be enforced.

[stonebridge20]

My first Toyota Atlantic race in 1994 at Montreal, we were almost "strait lining" the left hander leading onto the pit strait on the first day of practice. The curb was low enough that you could put 4 wheels over the top of it. The next day for qualifing I come into the same corner all ready to "pound" over the curb and I see 6 pipes sticking strait up on the curb. They looked like 4" water pipe painted white. I almost craped myself while I was headed strait for them. I managed to not hit any and made a plan for the next time through that corner. I come into the corner the next lap and I see the first "pipe" missing and white chunks of styrofoam all over the place. The third lap around and it looks like there was a mini snow storm with tiny chunks of styrofoam everywhere and the other 5 pipes are gone! I turned my fastest lap on lap 6. They never replaced the "pipes" for the rest of the weekend.

Agnif

[Roger Eade]

This reg is quite clear two wheels off is a no no, if you put a protest in writing, stating rule 6.8.3, he can't rule other wise, if he did not find in your favour you could, IMHO take it further up the food chain, the rule is quite clear in its intent, stay on the road! Over here the track edge are marked in white road marker, so only a blind man can say he didn't see it, but some still try.
Roger

This question comes up now and then. The SCCA GCR doesn't say much about it:

6.8.3. Off-Course Excursions
The driver is required to follow the pavement or marked course during a competition, and shall not gain an advantage from an off-course excursion. Unless otherwise provided by Supplementary Regulations, whenever a driver leaves an artificially marked course or an airport circuit with all four (4) wheels, he shall re-enter the course at the same spot where he went off, and cannot simply re-enter further down the course, subject to the directions of the Corner Worker controlling re-entry

The first part is sometimes interpreted as disallowing 'two wheels off'. Most times, two wheels off seems to be sort of OK

[Charles Warner]

Guys,

An off-course excursion consists of all 4 wheels. Until it is deemed illegal to put "any" portion of the car off the racing surface it will happen, and, often it will be the quickest way around the circuit. That, after all, is the objective of the exercise. Ideas that this is somehow cheating or unsportsmanlike are not applicable. This is racing - think back to Jean-Pierre Sarte's comment to Louise in Grand Prix. "Because I know all the other drivers are lifting theirs."

The only way to stop this is to install the high FIA curbing. As DW points out, we can't do much with these curbs without damaging our cars. Until then, try to figure out how to use this tactic to suit your car and driving style.

[RussMcB]

This reg is quite clear <snip>

I think the opposite. I see LOTS of ambiguity (unless there are explicit definitions written elsewhere in the rule book for things like "follow" and "off course excursion").

[Charles Warner]

Russ,

Traditionally (at least for as long as I can remember) all 4 wheels have to leave the racing surface before you are off track.

[azjc]

As an "Old" sedan driver... two wheels off is OK, four wheels is not as per the GCR or just about any other rule book. But if you can get away with it... do it. IMSA never cared, made for a good show.

Anyone ever seen the "Petty" line thru the S's at Riverside? Pretty much made it a streight with some off's & on's (the curve's). Two wheels off was very common for sedans AND open wheeled cars for years - if you want to be fast or pull off a pass! Turn 7, hook your front inside wheel over the edge of the pavement for the fast line.

[rickb99]

I'll throw a snow ball in this fight from our part of the world. Experience from listening on the "control channel" at races for a number of years working corners.

Its been my experience:

At Regional events an excessive number or repeated in the same location 2 wheels off and throwing dirt on the track will get you a black flag for a little instruction on why you shouldn't be doing that.

At National races they don't even want to hear the mention of wheels off until it's all 4. And then there's usually a follow up question as to whether the off car gained a position. Furthermore, that lap time will be exempted for a potential fastest lap of the race.

I don't really mind it as an occasional thing. Unless my turn partner is a fanatic, I'll 'skip' just a slight 2 wheel slip off in regionals if the guy keeps good control of the car. Until you've put a couple of wheels off here and there as a driver, you really don't know quite where the 10/10ths point is, do you? Unless your Gilles Villeneuve.

[D.T. Benner]

As Doug Brenner pointed out the problem at Laguna Seca is Low Curbs (the bikes are the tracks BIG event so they get what they want) and the sand/small rocks that are outside the curbs. If you race at a track with nice grass or compacted soil past the curbs it is not as big of a problem.
What makes it such a big pain at Laguna is that our Club Races are run on such a tight time line that there is never time to sweep the C--P off between races. If you run after Spec Wrecker Ford or Spec Miata groups the amount of C--P on the track is unbelieveable!
Last year we went out on the Pace lap after a Spec Miata race and they had us do 2 pace laps so we could run through the C--P and hopefully wear a path through it!
It's a shame that such a great track has turned into a bad experience for Formula Car racers.
As most of the high ground clearence cars can run outside the curbs they drag a large amount of C--P back onto the racing surface. I guess because Spec Miata is the BIG deal with 60 to 80 Entries ($$$ for the Club) they don't get slapped down for their Bozo driving?

[Keith Carter]

It's too hard to police so they just let it go. For those cars who can, they will... Unless there is something there to prevent it or if it unsettles the car too much. At the USGP, it's common practice for the big forklifters to pick up a tire wall cluster and put it on the apex of the corner to dissuade the Porsche Cup guys from cutting corners.. The tire walls are quickly picked up and removed when the F1 cars are on track. If everyone in your class is doing it, then there is no advantage.

[KevinFirlein]

For all the ' stay between the lines ' crowd I point out the following....

At topeka nearly every single car drives completely off the 'marked racing surface' in the last turn.

At the old pre winter of 1992 castration of Road Atlanta any car with any real speed drove clear into the pitlane at the exit of turn 11 then jerked the car back onto the actual track before hitting more then 3 gator teeth.

Cant have it both ways. Off track is off track whether its dirt or not doesnt matter

Technically speaking track * side * curbing isnt the racing surface either yet most people seem to have no problems putting wheels on them.

[DaveW]

For all the ' stay between the lines ' crowd I point out the following....

At topeka nearly every single car drives completely off the 'marked racing surface' in the last turn.

At the old pre winter of 1992 castration of Road Atlanta any car with any real speed drove clear into the pitlane at the exit of turn 11 then jerked the car back onto the actual track before hitting more then 3 gator teeth.

Cant have it both ways. Off track is off track whether its dirt or not doesnt matter

Technically speaking track * side * curbing isnt the racing surface either yet most people seem to have no problems putting wheels on them.

Kevin, you make some very good points. I was certainly one of the obvious "offenders" at the old Road Atlanta. I not only used the pit lane on the exit of 11, I used the pit lane at thr entrance to turn 1.

However, even though I have no problem with racers using paved "extensions" of the track surface, the problem arises when the "extension' is unpaved and muddy/wet. Even dry, unpaved areas are fine to use, IMO, as long as it doesn't bother anyone (throw rocks, raise impenetrable dust clouds, etc.), doesn't ruin the racing for the following classes, and doesn't create dangerous drop-offs at the track edge. THOSE are the real problems.

And another real problem is, how do you ever enforce any limitation w/o penalties, either legislated or physical (damage to cars going over curbs, etc.)? That's a tough issue.

HPT, in 2006, had some really severe gators in the turn 8/9 area. While they prevented intentional "offs,", they also ruined a lot of cars that got onto them unintentionally. So, where do you draw the line?

It is a hard problem to solve.

[KevinFirlein]

I'd actually forgotten about moving to the left at the entry to T1

It is a nearly impossible situation to legislate. Frankly as a driver its my job to get from start / finish back to start / finish quicker then anyone else. I *will* do whatever I can do and get away with to make it happen.

If they made a clear cut rule and charged the corner worker captains with strictly enforcing it it still wouldnt be solved. Every captain will still have his own take on what he would allow. Most would give a driver at least one ' freebie' for a mistake. I can gaurentee my flier in qualifying would be setup to include a 'freebie' if I thought for 1 second it might be faster. If the lap ended up being tossed out, well so be it.

At Atlanta the starters would tend to give you a furled black flag if they thought you took too much of the gator teeth when jerking the car back onto the track. But I would bet it was different depending on how was on the start bridge at the time

I've been grumpy when getting a face full of dirt and rock at the corner exit and like most quick drivers I decide when to completely ignore the debris flag hoping I am right. I just always took it as part of actually racing a car. I definitely would not want even more rules that could end up being enforced incorrectly

[Douglas Brenner]

However, even though I have no problem with racers using paved "extensions" of the track surface, the problem arises when the "extension' is unpaved and muddy/wet. Even dry, unpaved areas are fine to use, IMO, as long as it doesn't bother anyone (throw rocks, raise impenetrable dust clouds, etc.), doesn't ruin the racing for the following classes, and doesn't create dangerous drop-offs at the track edge. THOSE are the real problems.

I think, as usual, that Dave has identified the real problem. I also have no problem with cutting corners or going on the rumble strip. My car is fantastic over any kind of bumps. It is the hazard from forign matter being spred on the racing surface by cars using the dirt as their line lap after lap that is the issue. I think a few well placed black flags would easily solve this problem, but i think that Keven unfortunatly is correct in that every corner captain will have his own take. As I have said, the only place out here where the problem is bad is at Laguna Seca and I just won't be going there.

[Steve Davis]

I'm not sure why the current track definition of 'curbing' now seems to be slight ripple strips instead of the old style curbing that we all used to have (VIR still has it in the uphill esses). If the curbing were sufficiently high enough (remember the old T7 at Road Atlanta?) a car could hit it without major damage - but wouldn't WANT to do more than TOUCH it. At Topeka, they installed these damning BOLLARDS on the inside of the ripple strip that will bend a rim (or MUCH worse) if you TOUCH them. It's pretty difficult to clip the apex accurately enough to use all of the ripple strip without touching the bollards. I think all tracks should go back to the high curbing (Shannonville had it the last (and only) time I was there). That gives the formula car drivers something to work with that isn't easily "cheated" and won't unduly damage the car for a slight error. The 'stock' classes can still run right over them without problems, but it would be a LOT easier for Stewards to enforce with a clear curb.

Steve, FV80

[Tim FF19]

Having the corner workers decide if a driver has violated a rule such as this is unfair to the corner workers and drivers alike. This is much much tougher that calling balls and strikes becasue the corner workers are not there to examine the line of each and every car. They are there to inform and assist drivers with various track conditions and situations, not to decide if a car was 'high and inside". If tall gators are used in particular turns it puts the responsibility on the driver where it belongs. If a driver damages his/her car it is hard to blame anyone but themselves.

FWIW, I agree with Kevin's philosophy. There are several turns at various tracks where I put two wheels in the grass "intentionally and repeatably". If the stewards take no action, then it is implied that the line taken is acceptable. As far as dirt/debris on the track I think it just comes with the territory like dropped oil and rain.

[John Nesbitt]

We have to distinguish between those things done at the track's initiative, and those done at SCCA's. I could see that a track might install very aggressive curbing or bollards to discourage damage to its off-track surface. That's quite separate from the SCCA's possibly making a rule restricting wheels off the pavement.

It's not the corner worker's call to make.

If, hypothetically, there was a 'no wheels off the racing surface - however defined - under any circumstances' rule, the corner workers would have a fairly simple choice to make: did any wheels leave the racing surface, or not? If yes, then call it in. Presumably the operating steward would act on that.

But first you would need a rule to enforce.

It is interesting to note that, where such a rule has been published, compliance has not been a real issue. The DC Region was concerned about drivers using the pavement at pit out as racing surface. They drew a line (literally) defining the racing surface at pit out, and published a rule forbidding drivers from crossing the line. To my knowledge there has been no problem enforcing that rule.

[Roger Eade]

on pit exits onto the track are quite commom, even in F1, cross those and you can get at the least, a time penility, and you do not see it happen often, as all drivers know what will happen. Drivers will always take as much as they can get away with, so really its enforcement of the rules that keep them on the straight and narrow, I think it was Smokey Y, that said racing starts as soon as the rules are posted, so racers tend to take it to the max, and will test the rules, so its what you can get away with.

Roger

[martyb]

(SNIP)

It is interesting to note that, where such a rule has been published, compliance has not been a real issue. The DC Region was concerned about drivers using the pavement at pit out as racing surface. They drew a line (literally) defining the racing surface at pit out, and published a rule forbidding drivers from crossing the line. To my knowledge there has been no problem enforcing that rule.

At the last race at Thunderhill they made a similar rule about crossing into the diagonally striped area in the last corner going onto the main straight, as going off-course was much faster than double-apexing it. They had a spotter watching for transgressions, and everyone that looked like they deliberately went over was blackflagged (but if someone punted you over the line, no foul). It only took about one session per class, and everyone got the idea real quick.

Marty

[George Main]

I think, as usual, that Dave has identified the real problem. I also have no problem with cutting corners or going on the rumble strip. My car is fantastic over any kind of bumps. It is the hazard from forign matter being spred on the racing surface by cars using the dirt as their line lap after lap that is the issue. I think a few well placed black flags would easily solve this problem, but i think that Keven unfortunatly is correct in that every corner captain will have his own take. As I have said, the only place out here where the problem is bad is at Laguna Seca and I just won't be going there.

The last time I was at Laguna, May '07, they had put in "extensions" to the inside curbing. These extensions were at the the apexs and were 6-9" tall like bricks. You couldn't put a wheel in the dirt at the apex (3,4,5,10..can't remember if 6 had one) without ripping the suspension apart or bending a wheel, if you hit one. Also read that they are going to pave some of the gravel trap areas, (outside of two, for sure, others?)
With the motorcycle "friendly" curbing, the resulting car races have been more off-road racing, both on and off the track, giving to new meaning to driving in the marbles.

[Ron Tebo]

Call me a purist or a dip sh**, what ever... But to me the whole idea was to always stay on the black part and drive as fast as I could within those confines.... No wonder I was never as fast as some of the other guys. If I ever put two wheels off, it certainly was never intentional. I do know that the rumble strips wore some of the rivets off of my belly pan and I found that out the hard way too....

[rickb99]

The FOUR wheels off the MARKED racing surface rule in SCCA GCR's is quite clear. And most certainly apply's to National Events as the Stewards are following the letter of the law (sic).

The ambiguous area is in the 'two wheels' area (not applied in nationals) during Regional events. That is a judgement call by the Stewards of the Meet and is often written into the Sups.

As far as corner workers are concerned, we take our orders from the Stewards, If they want 2 off called we are (supposed) to call them. Easy as pushing the mic. button. There's no ambiguity in it. Usually if a car is at risk of leaving the track, at least two sets of eye balls are looking. Like I said earlier, if a guy gets two wheels off on one lap and maintains good car control I won't call it (unless forced too). If he really struggles to control the car and places himself or others at risk, I'll call it.

On the other hand, if a driver is repeatedly placing two wheels off in a corner to gain time lap after lap in a regional, I gonna call it. Because, the OTHER drivers know the RULE and are seeing that. They get upset and complain about the offending driver after the race. Might as well stop it before it becomes an issue at post race tech.

BLEND LINES:
Due to a temporary reconfiguration of our primary track, blend line violations for cars reentering the course from the hot pits (or on track on a hot lap) are taken very seriously. The reentry (unfortunately, but temporary or 4 years now) is right at the place where cars are at maximum speed and entering the T-1 braking zone. ALL blend line violations are called.

Ron:
I am a PURIST too and want to see cars stay on the racing surface. But I also as a 'former driver' appreciate the fact that wheels off on occasion is a 'part of racing'.

[EYERACE]

ahhhhh - the gray zone in the expression > ya gotta cheat legal.

sometimes the supps have a note about two off in the first couple of corners after the initial green. a four off in a corner that results in a pass should get a black flag, a four off that serves to stay ahead of another car and kick up a little dirt might just be racing and cheating legal.

[Roger Eade]

I think you are right, if you get away with it, its OK
Roger

ahhhhh - the gray zone in the expression > ya gotta cheat legal.

sometimes the supps have a note about two off in the first couple of corners after the initial green. a four off in a corner that results in a pass should get a black flag, a four off that serves to stay ahead of another car and kick up a little dirt might just be racing and cheating legal.

[Mike Kolthoff]

Tim 19 ff Does 4 wheels off at the kink (Exit kink RA)apply...? Just jamming you, TIC, have a good year. Lucky ....very lucky what a picture that would have made

[Rich]

I think guy's should be adding the type of car they drive to their posts. As stated some cars are better than others at off roading. A miata going off road could easily lead to a spin from another car that just happens to be sharing track time. I know thw whole "if you don't get caught it aint cheatin" way of thinking but, it's not my way of thinking. I have heard many times of guys off roading just to throw dirt on the track for the guy behind him. May not exactly be cheating but that just shows tollerance IMO. The thing with torrerance is, is it goes so far then will get reinged back in to the word of law.

[Charles Warner]

"if you don't get caught it aint cheatin"

Just exactly what is someone supposed to be "caught" doing wrong? The allusion is that putting two wheels off the racing surface deliberately is somehow against the established rules. IMO that is not the case. (I don't know anyone with a car with reasonable ground clearance who doesn't straddle the right hand curb on the exit to turn 5 at RA all the way until the end of the curbing.) I guess it could be seen as a dangerous move (definitely illegal) if one tried to sneak up the inside of another car by sticking 90% of his car off the surface to the inside (sorta like Zanardi - who should have been DQ'd) and thereby causing contact. As far as buggering up the track, the offending car has to drive on it too. As far as dusting someone a bit - to quote Don Henley - get over it. It's part of the experience.

[abrussich]

From the standpoint of being a relative new guy to the sport, interesting takes on the subject. During our mandatory pre-licensing school two wheels across the gator strips was encouraged or at the very least never brought up as a subject. When following the leader and in all the races I have participated in since, cutting the corners is the norm.
The only time I have seen the officials get involved was if someone put two wheels off and lost some semblance of control.
Not trying to make any point, just an observation.

Al B.
CVAR
FF1

[rickb99]

AB,

If you're talking about running over curbing as 'cutting corners', I don't know of ANYPLACE that considers that a violation of any kind.

The 2 wheels off we are talking about (applied in regionals only) is, on a flat track (no curb) running 2 wheels out in the dirt at the apex to effectively widen out the corner. Or, letting the car run wide on exit and driving out in the dirt at the outside of the track. Both of these give you more 'race track' then the guys who aren't doing it.

The other concern is, with repeated moves such as this and depending upon the conditions, you're kicking dirt, rocks, mud and other stuff onto the racing surface which could be a hazard to your fellow drivers. A "slip" is one thing. But repeatidly doing it is another.

Okay so why does it seem different rules apply in Nationals and at regionals? Nationals, you're going for the gold and the racing is most certainly harder fought. People are running at 9/10th's or 10/10ths for the championship (the front runners any way). Being at the limits, the Stewards give more leeway. Thus, only report 4 wheels off.

The 2 wheels off in regionals is a "Stewards rule" usually, Either in the Sups. or discussed at the drivers meeting. Regionals are the "learning ground" and in theory run more for the "sport" of race driving rather then a championship. Thus, the 2 wheels off is an effort to keep things a little 'safer' and minimize damage repairs for everybody. Most Stewards are not nut cases over this either. From my experience, they don't make the black flag call on a car with 2 wheels off until it happens several times. Same car 2 closely spaced calls on same lap and you'll get a black probably. Same car 2 calls several laps apart, no call. Same car 3 or 4 times in a race, you'll get a black flag.

[Beartrax]

Two wheels off like this?

These photos were taken by http://the16v.com/SCCA/default.htm and are the property of that photographer. It is a link off the New England Region SCCA website. This is NHIS and there are multiple photos of various tin tops taking this line. Call me old-fashioned as well, you should be doing all you can to keep the car on the black stuff.

[rickb99]

That's just plain dumb and so upsetting to the car I can't believe it's a fast line in the corner. But then, aren't tin top drivers dumber then formula car drivers by their very nature (except GT1Vette of course)?

[Charles Warner]

The 2 wheels off in regionals is a "Stewards rule" usually, Either in the Sups. or discussed at the drivers meeting. Regionals are the "learning ground" and in theory run more for the "sport" of race driving rather then a championship. Thus, the 2 wheels off is an effort to keep things a little 'safer' and minimize damage.

Rick,

You've just hit on two of the inanities of the system. As stated, regionals are where a driver is supposed to learn and hone his skills to the point of racing in nationals. Yet, the rules are different? And, it is also an example of local paranoias and ideas of how a race should be run. What does it mean when a regional driver graduates to the national license level? "OK, Kid! You're a real race driver now so start acting like one." There needs to be some consistency across the board and this should apply to regionals as well. I can agree that a driver in a drivers school who consistently puts two wheels off should be talked to. After that, let the rule book apply across the board. And, what of the national driver who is racing both the regional and national events of the weekend? Does he have to alter his driving style for the regional event?

Let the rules apply. If there is a section of track where drivers abuse the ability to cut the corner (it's much less an issue on exit) then install the dreaded gator teeth.