Rumors abound--CART & IRL to combine forces

[RacerDave51]

If you believe what you read...

http://www.speedtv.com/articles/auto/champcar/42686/

More off-season fun

[D.T. Benner]

It's the American Golden Rule? "He who has the Gold Makes the Rules"? Unification under this Idea means Tony Wins.

[DaveW]

It's the American Golden Rule? "He who has the Gold Makes the Rules"? Unification under this Idea means Tony Wins.

I think this was inevitable. The sooner the better for open wheel racing.

[Michael Cannon]

Amen.

[Jeff Read]

Yes reunification needs to happen , but it is too bad that they will be driving in those butt ugly IRL cars

[Brian]

Tony loses - it's just that CART loses first and worse. Ain't no winners here. It's not this deal - the race is over and the crowd has left the track. And I think the cars are all ugly. I find watching the way the CART cars lurch along on those obnoxious street circuits physically disturbing and I turn the channel. And I think that power to pass is an abomination. The last time I recall really enjoying a CART race was watching Nigel Mansell and Emmo go at it hammer and tongs on some airport circuit somewhere. I don't recall really enjoying an IRL race. Although I got a kick out of Danica dumping that guy at Indy last year...

Brian

[Scott Gesford]

Yes reunification needs to happen , but it is too bad that they will be driving in those butt ugly IRL cars

The current cars aren't that bad looking I don't think. Now the 97-02 years were quite horrific. I also think the time has come to end this madness.

[Keith Carter]

As it was mentioned before... It needed (needs) to happen in order to rebuild a North American formula car racing following. I wouldn't mind if they kept the tracks raced on to North America as well.. It was too weird watching Champ events overseas. I'm still not too crazy about the IRL cars though.

[Rick Kirchner]

They need to go back, back, back, and I'm not talking about the heydey of the 90's (which was unsustainable) but back to what caused the split in the first place and start by addressing those issues and everything along the way.

The first split was caused by the cronyism and favoritism paid by USAC to the small old guard teams from the 50's and 60's and the lack of business acumen at USAC. For the first time, racing was being infiltrated by business interests, not businessmen just interested in racing. USAC and the AAA were just beards for the Speedway as the real sanctioning body. USAC had a lot of incompetence. They were professionals at running dirt track racing sponsored by tow trucks and body shops, but yokels when the costs of running Indy started climbing along with longer schedules in the mid 70's. There was hope for reconciliation but all the folks involved died in a small plane crash

The second split was the one that formed the IRL. As much as people here loved the pre-IRL era, there have been several articles over the years making the case for why the CART model was unsustainable at that level. It wasn't much for fairness either considering that there was always one influential owner importing the popular chassis and another selling the rights to the best engine and both using those profits to stomp the competition. That might work in the industrial marketplace, but it's hardly the formula for sustained growth in such a small pond. I think the IRL's recent experience with the major manufacturers is an indication that tying your horse to that cart isn't a good way to go either. As soon as Honda had the better product, Toyota and GM ran for the hills and Ilmor/Mercedes left as well - when you compete in the open with little restrictions there's going to be at least one loser, and it's not going to take the corporate suits long to figure out they can sponsor some one-make series somewhere for a lot less money and not get their asses kicked in public to boot

There was actually a third split, which was internal to the IRL, and that was when USAC was "fired" as sanctioning body and Tony took off the beard and brought the effort in-house. Professionalizing that was long overdue, and better than anything CART ever had in the past or since. So it seems to me that after 30 years they finally fixed the problem that split them up in the first place, but nobody is paying attention to that.

The fact of the matter is that the Owners suck as a sanctioning body because they're always trying to stack the deck in favor of themselves somehow. Owner-sanctioned series should only be a stopgap in case you need to dump your current sanctioning body. What the open wheel owners in this country need is something like the concorde agreement - something that gives them a stake in making the business better without mucking around in the rules aspect of the series during the racing year. The CCWS guys are talking about problems with Tony controlling the series, but in reality they are talking about losing control of their personal cash cow. As long as the big guys in CCWS are making money they dont give a $%^& about the small guys until there aren't any small guys to buy parts and engines or to put on a show and it's been that way since the first split. What they need are assurances they can still make money - more money - in the new business model.

The sanctioning body needs to take a larger role than USAC ever did - they need to obtain the series and event sponsors, ensure the major supply chains are stable (chassis/tires/engines), and ride herd on the promoters (a lot of the promoters from the CCWS/IRL era have just been incompetent), as well as promoting the series and its teams as a whole - and that's what NASCAR really does well

Too bad what's happened to the cars though. I think having a single acceptable chassis for road courses and ovals is a bridge too far at todays speeds and given the expectations of today's audiences. Road courses need cars with less dependence on downforce and longer braking distances to encourage passing - and it helps if the cars are physically smaller as well. Ovals need cars with lots of downforce that can run close with confidence and stability, and lots of crush space. I think the Indy cars of the 90's were a great compromise but going back to stuff with less impact protection would be viewed very negatively on the first fatality. The current Panoz CCWS chassis is one of the best looking since the 1992 Lolas, but probably not well suited for ovals. It's also so close in size and appearance to the Atalntics and Infinity Pro cars that I think it creates an identity problem.

[rickb99]

Question:

If CART and IRL combine, do you then have 40 car fields? Or, still limit it to like 20 or 25? If limited to 20 or 25, would the other 20 go start their own sanctioning body?

[captaineddie1975]

I go back as far as Rick K and I agree with him completely. I have seen two sanctioning bodies thrive, the NHRA and NASCAR. I think the reason was control..ie a Czar.
Is Tony George the Czar type????

[T644HU05]

<snip> but it is too bad that they will be driving in those butt ugly IRL cars

They are almost as ugly as the butt-zit-with-hair-poking-out of it ugly Daytona Prototypes! It's no wonder vintage racing is as popular as it is now. The old cars are beautiful and people love watching beautiful things go fast!

[TimW]

I go back as far as Rick K and I agree with him completely. I have seen two sanctioning bodies thrive, the NHRA and NASCAR. I think the reason was control..ie a Czar.
Is Tony George the Czar type????

Can Tony George complete a sentence in a press conference?

And you forgot the Czar of czars, Bernie!

[Rick Kirchner]

Since when is eloquence a requirement for high office? (insert waving american flag smilie here)

[LoPresti]

Not that any of this discussion will have any real influence on the outcome - for all the excellent reasons mentioned above.

But, for whatever it might be worth, do not discount the spectacle of the IRL ON ROAD COURSES! For cars which were built for ovals, those machines and their pilots are blindingly fast!

We at Watkins Glen went through a long dry spell! Since the "glory days" of THE USGP, and the F-5000 series, the track has been - well - sort of "under-utilized". Not that the club racing has not been great - it has! Nevertheless, when we heard that top-level, professional open wheel racing was returning after around a 25 year absence, we were thrilled - and skeptical.

The IRL? Those cars can't really brake and turn right, can they? I mean, they wouldn't even be coming here if it were not for the closing of Nazareth Speedway! And what sort of show can they put on - something "down home"? How about if it rains? (After all, it is The Glen!) Will the spectators and fans have to sing?

Those cars took to the track for the first time, and every trace of skepticism vanished. Big time formula cars were back at The Glen! Back in those Formula One "glory days", we had the Schecter chicane, and pole-sitting laps were around 1:44. Now we have the Bus Stop, but immediately, with little data and minimal setup info, those "wrong" IRL cars were turning laps 10 to 12 seconds FASTER that the best of the older generation! And this summer, their third visit here, they were down in the 1:29s!

The racing was great, the organization was superior, the drivers were friendly and accessable, the supporting races were high level, the tickets were modestly priced, it was a gala 3-day event - and, the grandstands were less than one-half full!

From this limited perspective, Tony George and the IRL are the "real thing"! Can he "save" formula car racing in this country? Let's hope.

Ed LoPresti

[KevinFirlein]

nothing to do with the split but I seem to recall that the F1 record at the glen, with the schecter chicane, was Bruno Giacomelli set in the alfa romeo turbo at a 1:28. There was a big deal made when Larry Connor ran his Benneton around the place, with the bustop chicane, at a 1:27 during a vintage race

[Scott Gesford]

nothing to do with the split but I seem to recall that the F1 record at the glen, with the schecter chicane, was Bruno Giacomelli set in the alfa romeo turbo at a 1:28. There was a big deal made when Larry Connor ran his Benneton around the place, with the bustop chicane, at a 1:27 during a vintage race

It was 1:33:29 that Bruno went in qualifying in a v-12 alfa. The only turbo at the time was Renault. Jones had the fastest lap at 1;34.0 after going off in turn 1 and coming back thru the field from about 10th to dominate. After the race I was in the garage area when they pushed by Reutemann's car that finished 2nd. You could still hear the skirts dragging on the ground as they went by.

[J Mabee]

I read somwhere that the IRL was getting an updated / new chassis as early as 09. Wonder if his pitch was for a one year deal?

[Ted Idlof]

If CART and IRL combine, do you then have 40 car fields? Or, still limit it to like 20 or 25? If limited to 20 or 25, would the other 20 go start their own sanctioning body?

IIRC, there were a few CART races in the mid 90's when 30 cars or so showed up and there were only 28 pit boxes on pit lane. So a couple of the slowest cars didn't race. Seems like a 28 car field would be the logical goal. Both series have been subsidizing several teams, so if it's all about the money, the level of subsidizing would be set (reduced) to where 28 cars should be ready to race every week?

[LoPresti]

Kevin & Scott,

Thanks for the mental recalibration! 1:34 or 1:44 - what's 10 seconds?

I guess I was remembering the mid 1970s, or was that the 1790's?

Ed

[Ted Idlof]

Assuming that CC management and their particular deals will soon be history, what's really a shame is that Mazda will also be left out in the cold. They had just solidified their ladder system with Star Mazda leading to CC Atlantics and onto CC. When CC is absorbed, dies or whatever the details are, Mazda's links and relationship with the top rung will be gone. I'm sure they will land on their feet but with the top rung controlled by Honda and FTG, a lot of strategic hard work goes down the drain.

I guess the same could be said for Panoz, Cosworth??..........are they all equally out in the cold?

[John LaRue]

The cars are solid for 2009 and probably 2010 as well. There are a number of new (existing design) cars in production as we type.

[John LaRue]

Interesting story in the Indianapolis Star:

http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dl.../1052/SPORTS01

[Keith Carter]

So maybe there's hope for 2010. I can't see why anyone would join IRL now and buy new cars only to buy new cars again in a couple of years.

[TimW]

So maybe there's hope for 2010. I can't see why anyone would join IRL now and buy new cars only to buy new cars again in a couple of years.

You do realize that not to long ago when there was open wheel series with real sponsors teams bought new cars every year. usually 2-3 per driver. Actually, even when SuperVee was in one of its hey-day's Ralt released an updated car each year and the first half of the grid all had the latest...

[Keith Carter]

I wasn't thinking completely of the cost aspect, but the whole picture. Setup info, familiarity, etc.. There's a lot that goes with that aside from the uber-cash that goes along with it. In 2010 if they're all starting on a level playing field it would be more enticing to a new comer.

[cooleyjb]

I wasn't thinking completely of the cost aspect, but the whole picture. Setup info, familiarity, etc.. There's a lot that goes with that aside from the uber-cash that goes along with it. In 2010 if they're all starting on a level playing field it would be more enticing to a new comer.

Makes me think that 2009 would be the last year of Champ Car if IRL does a good job of landing a couple of the major teams and venues.

[Ted Idlof]

Makes me think that 2009 would be the last year of Champ Car if IRL does a good job of landing a couple of the major teams and venues.

Judging from recent news FTG doesn't even need to work at it. Carl Haas is supposedly packing his bags already. Only Paper and a few CC Fanatics are still in denial. But the good news is that the CC Amigos are providing 1st class comedy material while we wait. I thought today's news of Rocketsports "luring" Bernoldi away from Brazillian stock cars was absolutely hilarious. Now that terrific 'score' gets CC up to 6 confirmed drivers.

[J Mabee]

Makes me think that 2009 would be the last year of Champ Car if IRL does a good job of landing a couple of the major teams and venues.

Newman / Haas to IRL by 2009

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/64852

[Thomas Copeland]

Will never happen. Here's why:

Paul Newman hates Tony George.
Carl Haas hates Tony George (but not as much as Newman)
Kevin Kalhoven hates Tony George.
Jerry Forsythe hates Tony George.
Everybody in CC hates Tony George...
Nearly everyone in racing hates Tony George...

Do ya really think any of these guys will ever tolerate Georgie as Grand Pooba?

And this was always about who gets to be in charge...nothing has changed there.

All this was was an attempt to boost declining IRL fields by luring teams away from Champcar...nutin' more. (I'll believe the Haas moves to IRL story when I see it..if he goes it'll be without Newman....a lot of CC guys will have to swallow a lot of pride for this merger to happen).

As they say in Brooklyn...Fugetaboutit!

[Keith Carter]

Whoah, that's like Warner's move to Blu-Ray... The fat lady is warming up her voice.

[milesmcewing]

Hate is a pretty strong word, I'll bet Bernie Ecclestone does not have to many fans in the F1 ownership world. What does he have?

The keys and the money!


People will put up with a lot of crap, for a big bag of money.

If Tony George has the deal, do you really think those other guys will give up racing because they don't like Tony George?

My feeling is that Tony George single-handedly destroyed what was probably the best racing series in the world, for his own ego. But until you are prepared to wage a war, or realize that you are not strong enough to defeat the movement... Sometimes you have to join in.

I wish I had an answer!

Just stirring the pot,
Miles

[Thomas Copeland]

Ok...I'll rephase it....they love and respect TG....sorry how could I have gotten it so wrong....(I'm so P-in-C)...

The CC/IRL World Series Presented by his Majesty Tony George:

2009 Schedule

Homestead
Kentucky
Motegi
Kansas
Indy
Milwaukee
Texas World
Richmond
Chicago
New Hampshire
Fontana

Oh yeah...I'll watch....fur sure!

(also Bernie made all those guys super duper rich.....BIG difference)

I'd love to see it work (with the right guy in charge of course).....just can't believe all that bad blood can get cleaned up by giving away free cars and engines.

[Joefisherff]

Typical Tony George, "Yeah I tried to get the guys to come over here by giving them engines and cars but they never responded in time"

Like any major business man would accept a verbal offer to make a major move in another venture. He is all about talking about reconciliation until it comes to putting something down in writing.

I agree that he has been the biggest reason for the decline in open wheel racing over the past 10 years. Thanks Tony - now go stroke your ego.

[John LaRue]

This pretty well sums it all up.

http://www.speedtv.com/commentary/42769/

[SSpiffytoo]

My opinion is that we lock the "leaders" of both organizations in a room, feed them nothing but broccoli, brussels sprouts, pickled eggs and cheap beer then turn off the A/C and not let them out until they have hammered out an agreement for a single sanctioning body for professional open-wheel racing in the US.

[Douglas Kniffin]

I'd like to add my name to the list of Tony George haters:

Douglas Kniffin hates Tony George

[Tim FF19]

My two cents:

I have not watched an IRL or CC race in years (500 included) except for maybe the last few laps when I happened upon them while surfing for real racin' like Monster Trucks,
School bus figure 8 racing or F1. F1 is more technical that school bus racing but most of the school bus operators are more lively during the interviews. And don't forget, Monster Trucks run grooved tires just like the F1 boys in Yurrip.

You can hate TG or CC all you want but there isn't much point any more because neither side has a worthwhile product. There just isn't much to argure about any more.

YMMV

[Ted Idlof]

And Monster Trucks? Hot Damn. Sign me up. That's almost as much fun as watching egomaniac millionaires throw it all away !!!!

[Stan Clayton]

There just isn't much to argure about any more.

This.