Indy Lights info?

[Rick Ross]

I was looking at a Lola Indy Lights car in the shop today and was rather impressed. Kind of like a big Atlantic without the tunnels but with a lot more motor. It looks like a pretty nice package overall.......but of course looks can be deceiving! I've done a search here on Apexspeed and can't seem to find much info. Just wondering if anyone would care to comment on these cars -- reliability, quality, costs, engines, handling, etc. This looks like it might be a fun BOSS car, which is probably exactly what the owner has in mind.

[andyllc]

I only know a limited amount. You are right though that it is a big atlantic in a sense. It will cost a bit more to run an Indy lights car all out than an Atlantic however if you dont run the motor on the ragged edge it would probably last a while. One thing (depending on the year of the car) the exhaust ran through the diffuser which I am told affects the handling so it will probably take a bit to get used to. Even though they are a flat bottom car like the Champcar it still has tons of downforce. Should be fun

[Jeff Owens]

Contact Ted Eller at Performance Concepts. One of his clients has a few IL cars, the Telmex team cars. They ran the cars at several test days and some SCCA events at Summit Point last season. He should be very helpful.

540-665-0409
Winchester, VA

http://www.performanceconcepts.biz/m5_3.htm

[dpchamp87]

Rick, I run the ex Derek Higgins Lola T97/20 in SVRA and I would be pleased to have a chat with you. Send me an e mail David

[Rick Ross]

Thanks, folks. I appreciate the good info.

[S Lathrop]

Rick, I run the ex Derek Higgins Lola T97/20 in SVRA and I would be pleased to have a chat with you. Send me an e mail David

I engineered this car for Derek. There were a lot of different setups that were used on these cars. Not all of the setups would be easy for an amature racer. Tires have a lot to do with the handling. All the setups were developed for Firestone radials. If you get one of these cars try to get an experienced engineer to help you develop a setup that fits you and the tires you are using.

The cars are big, heavy and fast. Consequently when you make a mistake you will cover a lot of ground. But they should make a really satisifying car to work with and not be very expensive to run. They are very durable. The car I had with Tony Rena had over 30,000 miles on the chassis.

[Rick Ross]

Yes, it is a rather big and sturdy looking car. Everthing about the car seems pretty substantial, even the wings and bodywork. The quality of all the components also appears to be relatively high, at least to the casual observer. I thought that it was interesting how the master cylinders were all mounted inside the tub. The tub appears to be relatively safe, with lots of side crush space and plenty of tub and nose located ahead of the driver's feet. Overall it looks as though the car would be much easier to work on than a DB4, RT-40/41, or Swift 008/014.

[S Lathrop]

Remember that these cars will easly do 190. You can easily build an engine with 400 plus hp. At that speed they have 2400 lbs down force in the low down force setup.

I really enjoyed working whit these cars. The cars responded to what ever you thought you might want to do.

This is nothing like an Atlantic car. You can have nearly double the hp with the the same size tires.

[Rick Ross]

Wow, didn't realize that the car had that much hp, and that's a lot of downforce! Definitely not like an Atlantic, at least performance wise. That's quite a bit of downforce for a car without tunnels.....isn't it?

[R. Pare]

Not really anything special. Flat bottom ground effects cars can easily pull their weight in downforce off of just the bottom if designed correctly, and, of course, if they have sufficient plan area.

When someone finally builds an FB correctly, it will be able to get at least 1000 pounds off of just the bottom.

[Rick Ross]

I wonder what percentage of the downforce on the Indy Lights Lola comes off the bottom and diffuser, as opposed to the wings? And I wonder if the exhaust flow thru the diffuser has a large effect? Perhaps the FB guys should take a closer look at this car and/or similar designs.

[dpchamp87]

These cars are nothing like Atlantics. Much more physical to drive and the motors could not be more different. In a Cosworth Atlantic you have maybe 2000 really usable revs (7300 to 9300) whereas the Lights car pulls like a train from 2000 revs to the nearly 7000 red line. The motor rebuild costs are about 1/3 of an Atlantic and they go at least twice as far between rebuilds. Clutches are pricey and easily fried and brake discs get consumed regularly.

[Paddy O'Brien]

I have a stupid question, I was chatting with a Lola Indy Lites owner at the BRIC and he casually mentioned that he was thinking of replacing the BuickV-6 with an alloy-block Chevy V-8, he seemed to think it would be pretty easy. I got to thinking about it and the idea of a 650 hp Lites car sounds very cool, like a modern F5000 car, but would it work? The gearbox would seem to be strong enough and there certainly seems to be enough room where the Buick sat, with a V8 would an Indy Lites still be BOSS series eligible? I had a watch on some of the faster Indy Lites cars at Road America and was kind of supprised to find they were a few seconds per lap slower than top club Atlantics. With a 40 mph top speed advantage over an atlantic, the Lites cars must be parked in the corners!

[S Lathrop]

The V8 would not be a problem. The V6 is esentially a small block V8 with 2 cylinders cut off.

The transmission would be problematic, With the V6 the CWP were barely capable of 1500 miles.

At Road America the Lites would be many seconds faster given equal performances.

[PaulT]

In my experience, lap times at the BRIC are not always indicative of the car's true potential.

Paul

[R. Pare]

The Buick V6 was rev limited not so much for longevity, but to limit the HP. If I remember right, the rev limiter was set for 7400 rpm, and let the engine make about 430 HP. George Montgomery (the engine builder) told me once that if you reved to 8500 you'd get 500 HP and still be climbing.

The cars are ass-end heavy, which made them a bear to drive fast - you really had to be on top of things. Couple that with the torque, and we had fun making bets at the start of every season as to which ex-F.Atlantic (or Super Vee) driver would stuff it first (especially at Phoenix at the start of the year). Breath the throttle at all mid-corner as you can do with an Atlantic, and you'd lose a ton of rear downforce faster than you could think! The lucky Lights drivers that got a tryout in a CART car were always amazed at how much easier they were to drive than the Lights. These cars were probably the best training ever for aspiring drivers.

Unfortunately, Lights never ran at RA, so we can't go look up comparative lap times, but it would not surprise me at all to see lap times about only about 4-5 seconds slower than the CART cars of that time.

The biggest problem you might have maintenance-wise with the car will be lifeing the gears and CWP. There is no other gearbox over here that uses the TPT gears that I know of, and I'm not sure if F3000 cars still uses them or not, so supply may be problematic. If you develop much more than the original 430 HP, expect to life the gears to only 500 miles, and the CWP to maybe 1000, and that's even with shotpeening and micropolishing.

[dereklola]

Breath the throttle at all mid-corner as you can do with an Atlantic, and you'd lose a ton of rear downforce faster than you could think!

Richard - why was this? Any connection with the exhaust feeding into the diffuser?
Thx - Derek

[S Lathrop]

Richard - why was this? Any connection with the exhaust feeding into the diffuser?
Thx - Derek

The exhaust feeds into the diffuser. The problem was very critical on ovals. Not only did a lift change down force, so would a gear change. There was a big difference in taking a corner at full throttle vs. partial throttle. 400+ hp has a lot of energy going out the exhaust.

These cars were very demanding on the driver's skill set. That is also why the graduates of Indy Lights were so successful in other classes. The Atlantic car is much more docile and while it takes a good driver to get 10/10th out of one, lesser drivers perform very close to that limit.

[Brian]

Allow me to say that I found this thread fascinating and answered a LOT of questions that I kind of mused over all these years.

Thanks Apexspeed!

Brian

[Rick Kirchner]

Isn't the easy fix for that problem to re-route the exhaust? or would that remove so much downforce you would need to find it elsewhere?

[R. Pare]

Since when is developing more downforce - especially that which has no drag associated with it - a "problem" ?

Ya just have to keep your foot in it.

[Rick Kirchner]

When I took my VARA driving school back in 99, there was a guy with a lights Wildcat that showed up. Kind of old-school with an open trailer. Buttonwillow was cold and wet (mid-feb) and the infield was sort of a swamp.

I saw the car come back on the hook with thick brown water pouring out of every orifice.

He had been passed by Si Robin - who was over 70 at the time - in a lotus 23, and his pride couldn't take that any longer, and spun on tires that had no chance of getting heat in them that day.

From the waterline on his suit he was in up to the windshield.

[R. Pare]

I'm always amazed by the guys with more money than brains that buy cars that are waaaaaay beyond their capabilities - makes you wonder how they ever made that sort of money in the first place!

I once watched a guy in an Ossella F1 car at Bridgehampton destroy it in less than 8 laps - and he wasn't even running a decent FF time yet!

The Lights cars were pretty damned serious race cars, and demanded real quality in their drivers. It's a real shame that Rahal killed it in favor of Atlantic.

[Brian]

One year when the vintage races at Waterford were still on I was there with a Mini. A gentleman with an impeccably restored 427 Cobra rolled out, probably racing on Saturday and entering the car in the companion Concours on the Sunday. It was damp, not raining, but tricky. he spun coming on to the back straight, spun that car at least 8 times all the way down the back straight on the wet grass on the inside of the track, sat for a while, at the end of the session fired it up and drove straight back into his trailer and just went away...

Kind of a similar thing, people thinking racing rather than racing racing...

Brian

[Scott B]

I am currently going through a March 86A (Indy Lights Wildcat) with the idea of homologating it in SCCA FS. The previous comments on the handling of the lights cars, does this apply to the March or Lola or both? Since current sound restrictions at Buttonwillow, Laguna Seca etc will require a silencer any thoughts on routing the exhaust a little further back and up away from the air coming from the diffuser (such as on the FC cars)? While you cannot change the laws of physics (haveing raced a 911 do not make me tell you how I know) can't some of the handling issues be resolved with springs, sway bars, and such? I have been racing for almost 40 years, most everything from the old Formula A and B cars to current Atlantics. Should be interesting to see the differences...

Scott B

March 86A
Ralt RT-5

[Charles Warner]

Scott,

This issue should be a moot point for you.

[Scott B]

Charles,

Should be...but there is always room to learn from others. Have been working in and out of medicine since 1969 and as in racing, there is always something new, there are always those who have more experience, or different experiences. I am not enough of a computer guru to do computer simulations of changes on the car. Although I have moved from stopwatch and seat of the pants to a gps system that claculates rpm/speed/g-forces at different segments of the track.

So Charles...are you still facing the mandatory retirement from flying...

Scott B

[RussMcB]

I am currently going through a March 86A (Indy Lights Wildcat) with the idea of homologating it in SCCA FS.

Scott, I was told a couple of years ago by a CRB member that Indy Lights/F3000 etc. were considered too big/powerful/fast for regional Club Racing. I haven't looked at the rule book regarding that, though, so not sure if that's still true.

[Stan Clayton]

Scott, I was told a couple of years ago by a CRB member that Indy Lights/F3000 etc. were considered too big/powerful/fast for regional Club Racing. I haven't looked at the rule book regarding that, though, so not sure if that's still true.

Russ, Lights/F3k cars, etc., are eligible for homologation if they otherwise meet GCR specs. The former maximum empty weight restriction on Formula S cars was deleted a couple of years ago. Stan

[D.T. Benner]

Stan do cars that have never been Homologated by SCCA (Carbon Tub) still require crash testing?

[Stan Clayton]

Stan do cars that have never been Homologated by SCCA (Carbon Tub) still require crash testing?

Not exactly. Non-metallic composite cars are required to meet "FIA specifications", which may or may not require crash testing. Certainly, new designs would need to be crash tested, but many older designs were built to FIA layup schedules rather than a crash test standard. I don't recall exactly when FIA began requiring crash testing, but IIRC it was in the mid-90's. Contact the Club Technical office for the particulars for your car.

IIRC, the March 86A has an alloy tub with composite uppers. So, like the Swift DB-4 it should not fall under the non-metallic chassis rule.

[Charles Warner]

Scott,

I agree about the learning. In this case, since the exhaust is not exited in the diffuser area, it shouldn't matter. And, no, I am no longer forced to retire this year. Will keep flying for a couple more.

[Scott B]

The only way to homolgate a formula car is to have one that meets the metal tube, metallic tub, or have an FIA certificate for the composite cars. Went through this process several years ago with an old 86A and the old set of rules. I talked with John at SCCA only real issue with the car is the roll over structure. I will have to have add the forward roll over bar supports and have it all signed off by a Certified Engineer. A friend of mine said he would do the claculations, and if it looks ok will sign off on the homolgation packet. Also my car is one of the MK II cars, actually the last one made. These were built at Ralt...so there is some familiarity for the folks in Kansas. I am mostly homolgating the car just so I have a place to play. Certainly should not be much faster than the RT4 with V12 or the one with the Audi twin turbo that showed up at San Francisco Region races over the years. Plan to detune the engine a bit for reliability. Will see how the process goes. So for the next year or so until it is done will have my RT5.

Scott B

[R. Pare]

Thinking back to the question of the roll hoop, I believe that there really should be no problem in homologation as the original design was FIA approved for F3000 use. The problem you will face is proving it since getting copies of the original approval papers would be available only through the FIA now.

[Richard Hybels]

I probably should not say this for fear of being a downer but the guy that owned Silverstone in 1987 killed himself in a vintage F1 car.
These Lights cars sound like a damn good way to get hurt. FF is plenty fast enough for me .

[dereklola]

I had a neighbor that got killed in a modern FF, a business friend's son who got killed in a Champ car event, many people get killed in road accidents every year, every day, some even die at in bed at home. What's your point?

[Scott B]

After spending eight years in combat zones, four with Army Rangers and four with Special Forces and a couple other Spec Ops units, all as an Infantry enlisted then officer. I am not going to worry about what happens on a race track. That said, I do make certain the car cars I take to the track are very carefully prepped, and since this is not pro racing when there are situations on track I will err on the side of safety rather than barrel through the dust and flying car parts. I look at FA and older Champ and F cars as actually safer. The higher up the chain you go, the easier the cars are to drive at speed. To me they are actually more difficult to drive outside that 95+ % envelope. You can feel the car come into it's own as speed and dynamic forces increase to make the work as dsigned. They are also constructed in a way to make the driver cell the last defense with everything else absorbing energy as it goes off the car. The indy lites cars in particular are built this way due to the varying experience levels of drivers in those cars.

Scott B

Ralt RT5
March 86A

[Charles Warner]

I probably should not say this for fear of being a downer but the guy that owned Silverstone in 1987 killed himself in a vintage F1 car.
These Lights cars sound like a damn good way to get hurt. FF is plenty fast enough for me .

I will echo the last two responses. You can get killed in a FF just as fast as in an Indy Lights or vintage F1. In fact, the Indy Lights will be safer than the other two. You confuse speed with danger.

[Rick Ross]

The carbon fiber tub of the Lola Indy Lights car appears to be very substantial, with high cockpit sides, integral roll structure, lots of side crush space, and what appears to be relatively thick laminate/honeycomb material throughout. In my opinion this car would be safer in most impact situations than probably any tube frame formula car out there. I would personally feel better protected in the Indy Lights car than I would in any FF, FC, FB, FE, or FM car. Even the later Ralt and Swift FA cars have tubs that at least appear to be considerably lighter and smaller than the Indy Lights tub. Just my 0.02.......

[Charles Warner]

And very accurate.