5 spd Tow Vehicle - Pros/Cons?

[Shep]

Happy Holidays folks.

Looking for some advice from the ApexSpeed community...

I'm able to afford only one vehicle for both day-to-day commuting and as a trailer tow vehicle/utility truck. That vehicle is currently a Ford Ranger 4x4 with the 4.0L V6 and auto tranny. I can get away with this since the trailer is a lightweight 14ft single axle enclosed trailer. But the gas mileage even with the V6 is sub-stellar as a daily driver, the truck is getting on in years, and I can imagine buying a slightly bigger trailer in the next few years. I was thinking about replacing it with a diesel truck.

Thing is, I've been in diesel trucks with auto trannys and it seems like a lot of energy is wasted spinning up the torque converter even when the truck is unloaded. From a fuel efficiency standpoint, a 5-speed would make a lot more sense (I would think).

So, does anyone have any advice as to whether a manual trans diesel truck makes sense for towing (or for daily driving)? I know when backing up to attach the trailer, I'm often half hanging out the open door with my right foot on the brake pedal and the truck in reverse - something I couldn't do with a 5-spd. Or working both the brake and gas when backing up an incline. Beyond that, assuming I know how to shift, I was thinking a 5-spd would be superior.

Thoughts?

Thanks,
Erik

[Garey Guzman]

Erik,
My first tow vehicle was 5-sp Ranger but it was a 4-cyl. It got the job done with the open trailer.

Then I got an F350, deisel, 6-speed. I had to order it because no one carries a manual trans in stock, at least not in the spec I wanted. It took a couple of months to get it. Towing is awesome! With the open trailer, the truck didn't seem to notice the trailer.

I don't have a problem with the manual trans but there are times when I could see the advantage of the auto, especially towing in bad traffic.

I don't know if there is any noticable difference in fuel economy. The Fed doesn't require EPA numbers on big trucks. I get 18.5 going to and from work (no freeway) and about 11-12 towing the trailer at 70-75 mph.

The two big reasons I got the manual:
1) Something like $1500 extra for the auto (That's almost 2 sets of tires!!)
2) Wife doesn't like sticks so I don't have to worry about it being "needed".

[carnut169]

Its really a personal choice but the cost part is mute as any money saved is lost when the truck is sold.

You just need to list out the pro's and con's of each and make a choice. I drive a 6 speed car, but like winding it up at almost every shift- in a truck I'd rather have an auto.

Reliability & ecomomy wise its probably a wash.

[rickjohnson356]

The ony automatic our family has is the tow vehicle. My wife prefers manual transmission cars as do I.

The auto trans in the truck is just easier to deal with when backing up a trailer. And, as has been said, you will have a harder time selling a stick full-size truck when you need another one.

Be sure to add a trans temp gauge to the truck and monitor it when towing. Don't want to have a 3K trans repair bill added to the racing weekend expenses!

When I towed the 36-gooseneck, it normally ran at 190-210. when it got to 230, i slowed down. gauge is also good to tell when the trans temp has cooled down before shutting engine off after a long time towing.

[Rick Kirchner]

I had to make this decision in 89 when I bought my first big truck. A well-experienced collegue asked me "ever change the clutch on a big truck?" - 'nuff said!

The GM/Allison is a real sweet piece of machinery.

[Shep]

Thanks guys,

I kinda figured I'd get responses like those above -- I guess I was hoping someone would say that the around town fuel economy increase of the stick shift would outweigh the other hassles and reduced resale value, but it doesn't seem to be the case (Though with Garey at 18.5 mpg in an F350, I'd say that's pretty good!).

It would appear the real trade I need to make is whether owning both a small daily commuter car and an older/less expensive tow vehicle only for race weekend and home improvement/utility trips would be better than owning a single nice newer truck...

Anyone want to buy the 1985 BMW 535i "project" car (southern car, runs well, just haven't wrapped up the little things) that's taking up the space where the commuter car should reside??

- Erik

[RussMcB]

It would appear the real trade I need to make is whether owning both a small daily commuter car and an older/less expensive tow vehicle only for race weekend and home improvement/utility trips would be better than owning a single nice newer truck...

Erik, you've hit the nail on the head, or at the least raised the dilema I'm currently pondering. I bought a new 2004 Ford F250 diesel a few years ago to do double duty - daily driver and for towing my 24' tag trailer. These days, with $80 fill ups, I find myself wondering if I should have a more economical vehicle for the 99% of the time I'm not towing.

One thing I'm considering - Sell my truck & trailer and buying a used 24' U-Haul truck for the 5-6 races I do per year, and driving something like a Miata the rest of the time.

[EACIII]

I got car to use every day to save on gas, rather then drive the pickup. I use my pickup for more then just going to the races but still don't need it every day. I thought I was saving money. Well one day while sitting in the airport for another delayed flight I figure out the math on the deal. What it cost to have a second vehicale I will never get back in fuel savings until gas gets to around $6.00 a gallon. Your milage may vary.

Ed

[stephen wilson]

This is only my opinion, but I much prefer 2 vehicles. I bought a 5 year old crew cab Chevy for towing, and beat around in an old Integra for commuting. I couldn't stand driving a huge truck to work every day! Plus, I didn't have to compromise on an undersized tow vehicle. YMMV.

[RussMcB]

I got car to use every day to save on gas, rather then drive the pickup. I use my pickup for more then just going to the races but still don't need it every day. I thought I was saving money. Well one day while sitting in the airport for another delayed flight I figure out the math on the deal. What it cost to have a second vehicale I will never get back in fuel savings until gas gets to around $6.00 a gallon. Your milage may vary.

Ed

True, but I think the ideas expressed above are replacing a nice truck with two lesser valued vehicles, so you could easily break even that way.

Plus, you should feel better about the lower amount of fuel you are using now. That's a good thing on several levels.

Not to mention, your truck will have higher resale since you aren't adding much mileage to it now.

[carnut169]

Erik, you've hit the nail on the head, or at the least raised the dilema I'm currently pondering. I bought a new 2004 Ford F250 diesel a few years ago to do double duty - daily driver and for towing my 24' tag trailer. These days, with $80 fill ups, I find myself wondering if I should have a more economical vehicle for the 99% of the time I'm not towing.

One thing I'm considering - Sell my truck & trailer and buying a used 24' U-Haul truck for the 5-6 races I do per year, and driving something like a Miata the rest of the time.

Russ- I thought about that option as well (not U-Haul, but box truck) as the trucks are available for pretty cheap $$ considering. Only problem is getting the car in there- I suppose you'd need a modified lift gate.


It would be interesting to do the math on the operating cost and depreciation of running your F250 everyday vs a beater Miata, Civic or Integra (all great cars). I'd say if you were to go the 2nd car route buy a less expensive truck and keep the trailer.

[RussMcB]

Hope this isn't a thread hijack, but here are some rambling thoughts.

I mention U-Haul because they have very low deck heights - around 28"-31". Maybe others do, too (Penske, Ryder)? That's higher than most car trailers, but not too bad.

Years ago I had an old Ryder box truck. The ramps kinda continued right up into the truck box, so the transition wasn't bad. The car rode higher, but I could store things underneath. It worked pretty well. That was with an IT car, though. I think transport wheels on a formula car should make a box van workable.

With my current driveway, I hafta unload my race car while the trailer is still connected to the truck after a race before I can park the trailer. Once the trailer is parked, there's no room to get the car in or out. Therefore, I've often thought how nice it'd be to drive the box van nose in, and then always have easy load access.

It would also be nice to not have to connect/disconnect the trailer all the time. Driving/parking should be easier/safer with a truck compared to truck & trailer.

My current truck & trailer are worth maybe $30,000. I could easily buy a used box truck and small daily driver for less than that. The biggest fear, though, is possible unreliability with an older truck. It would really suck to head out to a race and not make it there, or have hassles along the way. However, it may not be any worse than frequent flat trailer tires. I've had 3-4 of those in the last 2 years.

[rickjohnson356]

I bought a 1994 diesel F350 when diesel fuel was $0.99/gallon (2001) and was less than gas price. Also bought a 36' gooseneck a few years later.

Now, diesel (around here) is $3.39/gal. About $110 for a 34 gallon fill-up. My commute is 35 miles one way (70+ miles/day * 5 days= 350 miles, without trips to HD or supplies for race car or groceries etc.)

After about 3-1/2 years in first F350, I sold the old diesel and bought a (new to me) really nice 2001 F350 CC dually XLT, loaded automatic ($18K rather than $38K for a brand new one in 2005).

Truck mileage w/o gn is around 16 (heavy foot on the on-ramp). with gn loaded on the way to the track was 8.5mpg.

It took me 6 months, but I got the GN sold, used part of the money to buy a beater 1991 CRX for $1200, bought mechanical parts to replace worn out stuff (shocks $58 each, rear rotors $20 each, 4-wheel set of pads $40, 2 front tires $65 each). Car is not beautiful has a dented RF fender, but is safe to drive with sunroof open or closed. The insurance is cheap, no collision, just comp. The truck stays parked during the week and is only used a little on the weekends to keep the batteries charged and engine oiled.

The rest of the trailer money is being used to have Rollin Butler build a FF motor to sell.

So far, fuel saving is about $60.00 PER WEEK.

I am a happier racer/camper now. Fewer miles on the truck, don't care if the beater is in a commuter wreck (better than having the truck crashed).

Life is getting better....

Now I just need to get my lazy butt in the garage and fix the racecar.

PS: Russ- let me know if you decide to sell your 24ft trailer.

[Garey Guzman]

When I ordered my F350, I figured I was going to keep it forever, or at least until the inheritance kicked in (oops, I forgot to get into a rich family!).I also figured that the manual would get a little better mileage and that since I had no plans on selling, I wasn't worried about resale. I also had a couple of friends who were looking for manual diesel trucks on the used market and one had to go about 400 miles to get one and they other guy was looking for anything within 600 miles!

As far as the box van, I raced with a guy in SoCal that had such a unit. It was pretty slick and he would load and unload by himself in very little time, probably faster than me with my enclosed trailer! He simply put the back wheels on the liftgate and attached a rope to the front of the chassis, raised it up with the front wheels dangling and slid it in. I'll see if I can find an old post of his with pictures.

[Roger Eade]

Trucks are quite cheap over here now, and quite a few have them for transporting thier race toys, I have a Mitsubishi Fuso 4X2 its 230 hp and I can fit two formula cars and tow one, its cheap to run, not fast will sit at 100Kph, legel limit for trucks here is 90 Kph, so it keeps up with the traffic OK, runs out of ommh on the hills, but still gets there OK, but the great thing about it is that we sleep and eat in it as well, just pull the cradle for the top car out, abou 10 minutes work, and there we are, most of the time there is only one car, and a trailered car so its no biggie, the other plus is that you don't have to worry about leaveing something behind as you don't have any room. I can go up to 10 tonnes all up weight truck tare weight 4200kg so you are never loaded to the max, its got power and heat and good lighting in side the box, and just use rampe to get the cars in, they are stored between the chassis rails, and we have used it for holidays camping, a very handy thing. the thing about big Yank tank utes over here, is that they are to big, cost way to much, terrible fuel comsumption, and are mechanical dinasors, but they do have a big following here, but not for this boy, Toyota have a new one out, I don't know if its in the states yet, but its a twin turbo 4500cc deisel and from reports is just the ducks nuts, loads of power, and runs on the sniff of a oily rag, plus you could use it as your day carl as far as bigger type trucks go you seem to be very limited in what you can buy over there, where as if it was made anywhere in the world, we would have at least one of them here, we import second hand trucks from all over the world, but mainly from Japan, and in the most part they are good buys.( I sell them)
Roger

[RussMcB]

Roger, I'd enjoy seeing a picture of your truck, and how it's set up, if you have digital pics of it.

Here is a link to an example of a 24' U-Haul truck for sale:

http://www.uhaul.com/trucksales/truc...ocation=777039

[TimW]

I had always heard its best to tow with an automatic as the torque converter provides damping between the mass of the trailer which could create some shock loads. If its a stick those would be directly transferred to the engine, no?

[Brian]

having towed with both, I prefer a standard manual transmission for towing. Two reasons: I have no worries about overheating the auto tranny, or having to do the inevitable tranny rebuild while on the road a thousand miles from home base. Having had a few auto tranny failures, that was a very real concern. Second, I really like being able to choose the gear I want to run in. With a five speed box vs the 4 speed auto's I used to have, I feel that I have three useful gears (third, fourth, fifth) for cruising, for mild hills and for hauling up the big ones. I have no idea if the gas mileage is better, that would be marginal and depend a lot on your driving style.

The downside as a commuter vehicle is that a truck tranny isn't all that fun to shift a whole lot, the clutch isn't like the one in a miata!

Brian

[Rick Kirchner]

With the warranties currently offered, and the recognition that people who buy big trucks are likely to tow a big RV with it, a lot of the auto transmission problems have gone away. The manufacturers don't like to replace transmissions.

I had a 89 K2500 (not HD) with a 700R4 transmission. Worked fine until I started towing my trailer (25' Carson living quarters). Within 1/2 season the tranny was gone and required a re-build every couple of long tows after that (aftermarket re-build parts were not as good as the original GM). It had the tow package - to which my transmission guy said "that's for towing SeaDoos not a 7000lb trailer" Back then the heavy-duty transmission was a TH400 3-spd.

My Allison has never gotten over 210 degrees and that includes towing over Townes Pass out of Death Valley when ambient temp was 118.

From my location, every track except willow springs requires at least one 3000 ft elevation change, and if I go to Las Vegas, it's four or five depending on route. It's probably the most stressing environment for a tow vehicle bar none.