This is the formula 500 4link

[outlawzracing]

This is the new and improved four link which can support all the new torqued coming out of that 2006 cbr1000rr motor. We still need to get a new axle cut for the car. The axle is going to be 60". I also need to order the new wheels. rear is going to be 13*10 the front is going to be 13*8.


Thanks to everyone that has supported me through this build so far.

[ny_racer_xxx]

Chris, I have a similar project I'm working on, the F500 with a CBR600rr motor. Kinda stalled at the moment...
I'm also in NY, near NYC, what about you???

Chris R.

[outlawzracing]

Chris, I have a similar project I'm working on, the F500 with a CBR600rr motor. Kinda stalled at the moment...
I'm also in NY, near NYC, what about you???

Chris R.

Hi Chris, I live in Rochester NY. What have you done to the 500? I am very happy to hear that there is some one doing a 500. What make and year is the 500?

[cparsons]

wow, moving right along and making good progress. How are you going to do the rear brakes? Just one for the axle, or one for each wheel? I am doing one big one right on the diff where the ring gear (now sprocket) used to be.

[outlawzracing]

wow, moving right along and making good progress. How are you going to do the rear brakes? Just one for the axle, or one for each wheel? I am doing one big one right on the diff where the ring gear (now sprocket) used to be.

I am putting on 2 brakes on the. I still have a lot more work ahead of me. I will post more pics in about two weeks. What are you building.

[ny_racer_xxx]

Rochester, snow belt wow!!!! I live in Ossining.
The car is a KBS MkV 1991 I believe, I haven't looked at the books lately. The car was a basket case, so all the work so far was repair. The rear clip I lopped off, I had modified the original, but I kept doing repairs on it, so I removed it. The chassis had a Quadrini 4 link put in. I'm keeping the straight axle in and the jackshaft. I have to come off the motor with an extended shaft to clear the cases, then forward to the jackshaft. With a straight axle, you shouldn't need more than a single brake. Why add more rotating mass to the drive train? I think a single rotor on diff is an excellent idea.

CR

[outlawzracing]

Rochester, snow belt wow!!!! I live in Ossining.
The car is a KBS MkV 1991 I believe, I haven't looked at the books lately. The car was a basket case, so all the work so far was repair. The rear clip I lopped off, I had modified the original, but I kept doing repairs on it, so I removed it. The chassis had a Quadrini 4 link put in. I'm keeping the straight axle in and the jackshaft. I have to come off the motor with an extended shaft to clear the cases, then forward to the jackshaft. With a straight axle, you shouldn't need more than a single brake. Why add more rotating mass to the drive train? I think a single rotor on diff is an excellent idea.

CR

I am not using a diff I am using a live axle. I am using the two brakes because of all the new HP the the 2 stroke did not have. There is a lot more mass to stop now that there more weight. I think I will need the other brake plus the rotors are small on the car.

So you are making an F600?

[ny_racer_xxx]

One thing to think about is that there's little or no engine braking on a 2 stroke, especially one with a centrifical clutch. Also, if you want to increase breaking, I would add more tire all around and bigger rotors to the front end, the rear is in the air mostly during hard braking. If you must add more clamping to the rear, try using 2 calipers to a single rotor on the rear.

Hope this helps....

CR

[TestDriver]

Chris,

A long time ago, while working on a FSAE project, we needed to get a previous car running to get seat time. The previous car had gotten it's diff cannibalized so we came up with a straight section of 0.250" wall 1.25" axle tube to replace the whole thing. The setup was similar to yours but with much more favorable dimensions and no axle movement relative to the countersprocket. I believe the axle was about 18 inches in length with the sprocket mounted slightly off center in line with the countersprocket. This position had it abouth 6 to 8 inches inboard of the nearest bearing support. In short order, the engine torque bent the axle section.

This was a car with an anemic, first generation GSX 600 engine and very hard rear tires. I'm sure that your newer engine will have twice as much torque than that one and your tires will have better traction. There's a very good reason why these F500 cars have their drive so close to the birdcages.

I hope this helps with your design.

Ramon

[JonV]

the engine torque bent the axle section.

I've got an f500/600 conversion going on too.

This is not the first time I've heard of axles getting bent by the added torque. There is a fellow by the name of Brian Pimm who has put a 1300 Hyabusa in an f500 and he has this problem too.

Seriously, I can see where it would be a problem even with a 600cc. The whole drive axle thing is something I change my mind about every other day. One day, I want to stay live axle, the next I want to do IRS just because it is simpler and neater to design and build.

[Stan Clayton]

Remember that a cylinder's stiffness is proportional to the 4th power of its outside diameter. The equation for a tube is D^4 - d^4, where D is outside diameter and d is inside diameter.

A 1.25" tubular axle's stiffness for a given material and length is therefore (using a .125" wall thickness):

1.25^4 - 1.0^4 = 1.44, while a 2" axle with the same 1/8th inch wall thickness is...

2^4 - 1.75^4 = 6.62, or over 4 1/2 times stronger.

Google on "minisprint axle" for lots of sources.

Have fun! Stan

[Daryl DeArman]

Not only engine torque, but hitting curbs with the wheels as well.

Even 25-30HP kart guys went from 1 1/4" x .250 4130 axles common 15 years ago to 50mm (2" THIN wall axles)

Some good info here:http://www.bactechnologies.com/kart_axles_40mm.htm (karting carbon fiber axles)

[ny_racer_xxx]

I don't know if this helps, but the QRE 4 link uses a 1 1/4 axle inside a tube with a bearing on either end, plus a 3rd bearing supporting next to the sprocket. This is teh setup I'm going with, but I'm going to flip flop the brake and the drive side.

CR

[ny_racer_xxx]

Quickshoe, sorry but you're confusing a couple of points. Karter's went larger for lighter/stiffer axles, not stronger axles. I'll take a 40mm axle over a 50mm any day, the 50's are way to fragile. We had a big discussion on axles on the F500 page. There's how stiff and axle is, as in how it resists deflection, and how strong an axle is, as in what it takes to deform, or bend so it won't come back to straight. You can't put a sprocket in the middle of an axle without a support bearing and drive it. It will bend.

[JonV]

Some good info here:http://www.bactechnologies.com/kart_axles_40mm.htm (karting carbon fiber axles)

I can use some of that weight reduction. For giggles I put my entire rear axle assembly on the bathroom scales. It came in at a staggering 88lbs!

BTW, hello to Chris R. It's John from eformulacarnews.

[outlawzracing]

Chris,

A long time ago, while working on a FSAE project, we needed to get a previous car running to get seat time. The previous car had gotten it's diff cannibalized so we came up with a straight section of 0.250" wall 1.25" axle tube to replace the whole thing. The setup was similar to yours but with much more favorable dimensions and no axle movement relative to the countersprocket. I believe the axle was about 18 inches in length with the sprocket mounted slightly off center in line with the countersprocket. This position had it abouth 6 to 8 inches inboard of the nearest bearing support. In short order, the engine torque bent the axle section.

This was a car with an anemic, first generation GSX 600 engine and very hard rear tires. I'm sure that your newer engine will have twice as much torque than that one and your tires will have better traction. There's a very good reason why these F500 cars have their drive so close to the birdcages.

I hope this helps with your design.

Ramon

What was the axle made out of that you used on the SAE car? thanks

[samiam520]

Man....................... you are a braver man then me. That thing looks way under designed for the type of speeds that you will be seeing.

I admire your spirit, however, some one needs to stop you.

[TestDriver]

Chris,

I don't remember what it was made of. It was given to us by one of the team members from his karting stash. The bend happened too easily though as in the first or second hard launch from a stop. If it was 1018 or 1020 and we had replaced it with 4130, I'm sure we would have seen the same outcome if not as quickly.

What was the axle made out of that you used on the SAE car? thanks

[outlawzracing]

Chris,

A long time ago, while working on a FSAE project, we needed to get a previous car running to get seat time. The previous car had gotten it's diff cannibalized so we came up with a straight section of 0.250" wall 1.25" axle tube to replace the whole thing. The setup was similar to yours but with much more favorable dimensions and no axle movement relative to the countersprocket. I believe the axle was about 18 inches in length with the sprocket mounted slightly off center in line with the countersprocket. This position had it abouth 6 to 8 inches inboard of the nearest bearing support. In short order, the engine torque bent the axle section.

This was a car with an anemic, first generation GSX 600 engine and very hard rear tires. I'm sure that your newer engine will have twice as much torque than that one and your tires will have better traction. There's a very good reason why these F500 cars have their drive so close to the birdcages.

I hope this helps with your design.

Ramon

This is good news that you brought to me. I will through an axle bearing carrier. I think if I put one in the center of the car that would work. thanks again for you help

[outlawzracing]

Man....................... you are a braver man then me. That thing looks way under designed for the type of speeds that you will be seeing.

I admire your spirit, however, some one needs to stop you.

I am still working on building of the rear end. I will post more pics when I get more done.

[Daryl DeArman]

not many (none???) karting axles are mild steel. Their flavors are generally 4130, Ti, or 6061, and apparently some CF out there too.

[outlawzracing]

not many (none???) karting axles are mild steel. Their flavors are generally 4130, Ti, or 6061, and apparently some CF out there too.

What will last the longest? Is CF good to use?

[Daryl DeArman]

I'd guess the 4130 will last the longest, but will also be the heaviest.

[Mark H]

Go with the heavy axle and only one rear brake. On an FC car the rear brakes wear 3-4 times less than the front even with small 19 on the rear and big 20 up front. My buddy that converted a big Ralt FA car only uses a single rear disc too and hasen't looked like he has had any problems stoping a much bigger car? just an idea? Besides like Mario A said...A lot of drivers make the mistake of thinking that the brakes are for stoping the car???