VanDesmo conversion for '08?

[Bill Bonow]

I saw nothing!

[HazelNut]

so i guess the competative home biuld cars with budget engines concept has already gone out the window in f1000, that was quick......

[John Nesbitt]

so i guess the competative home biuld cars with budget engines concept has already gone out the window in f1000, that was quick......

No, it's just evolved (quickly) into two classes: big-bucks FB, and small-bucks FB (CFB).

What's ironic is that the CFB's seem generally to have been CFC's in their previous lives.

[Brands]

As much as I love F1000 it would be a crime to rob that Ducati of it's soul. Van Diemen just doesn't have quitet the same ring as Ducati Desmosedici. No offense intended to anyone, it just seems wrong to me. Oh well.

[Wren]

so has anyone actually put one of these on a dyno yet? Where are they rating that number? rear wheel? output sprocket? calculated shaft?

I'll believe it when it hits George Dean's dyno, until then...

[Matt Conrad]

I love it.....

People that feel the need to spend $100K on an engine program to race in a class that if they win they'll be handed an $8 trophy.

Somebody much wiser said it...."a fool and his money are soon parted".

Matt Conrad
Phoenix Race Works, LLC

[Wren]

People that feel the need to spend $100K on an engine program to race in a class that if they win they'll be handed an $8 trophy.

I think it's pretty cool, I would really like for some of these guys to put up some pictures b/c I don't even know what these are going to look like.

I hope these guys are pretty forthcoming with some of their data once they are running so we can see if it really is an unfair advantage(I doubt it). With all the talk of limiting engines and other things, I wouldn't blame them for not wanting to share.

[Dano]

I think it's pretty cool, I would really like for some of these guys to put up some pictures b/c I don't even know what these are going to look like.

Pictures of the bike and motor anyway.

http://www.ducati.com/en/bikes/my200...=DesmosediciRR#

[cooleyjb]

Makes me wonder how the frame/driver could survive a big impact at the speeds an engine can push this car. As was shown at the ARRC these cars in their infancy are nearly hitting FA times. The FA cars are a tub where these cars a just a bunch of tubes that weren't originally designed for 200 hp and 1000 pounds.

I'll see Bruce and Co. in a couple of days to talk about my winter rebuild and see what I can find out...

[Daryl DeArman]

Hey Matt,

It is "only" $72,500 for the whole bike. I doubt it will cost another $27,500 to develop the motor.

That it a ton of money in my book to race for a $8 trophy, but if we are looking only at the value of the prize then so is a $750 weekend in a FV...I don't think you'll find a single person club racing for the value of the prize. It is the value in the whole experience, you know that or you wouldn't be doing it.

Personally, I think with that kind of budget you are better off taking a $5K suzuki, spend another $5K in dyno time, $15K in a wind tunnel, $10K on a couple of weekends with a coach and engineer, put the other $30K in the bank for the 09, 10, and 11 engine of the year.

[carnut169]

Hey Matt,

It is "only" $72,500 for the whole bike. I doubt it will cost another $27,500 to develop the motor.

That it a ton of money in my book to race for a $8 trophy, but if we are looking only at the value of the prize then so is a $750 weekend in a FV...I don't think you'll find a single person club racing for the value of the prize. It is the value in the whole experience, you know that or you wouldn't be doing it.

Personally, I think with that kind of budget you are better off taking a $5K suzuki, spend another $5K in dyno time, $15K in a wind tunnel, $10K on a couple of weekends with a coach and engineer, put the other $30K in the bank for the 09, 10, and 11 engine of the year.

I'm with you although $5,000 buys a lot of dyno time on a stock motor!

People will always be able to outspend. Thats racing. If someone wants to re-invent the wheel (cooling, oiling, yada yada) for an engine that will most likely be illegal (min production rule being discussed) in 09, hey- you'll have an advantage at the 08 ARRC. Your still going to need the one thing money can't buy to win- skill. My $$ would be on Cole, Prichard, JR, or Liverato in a well developed car with 15hp less.

Can you imagine blowing $25,000 engines??

[Lee Stohr]

Formula Atlantic guys spend $25K on engines every day of the week.
You could still get an exotic engine ban passed if you focus on that, instead of all the other stuff.

[Charles Warner]

If someone wants to re-invent the wheel (cooling, oiling, yada yada) for an engine that will most likely be illegal (min production rule being discussed) in 09, hey- you'll have an advantage at the 08 ARRC.

Sean,

I can't speak for the Comp Board or the Advisory Committees but my guess would be that any such rule changes will not obsolete any legal engines under the rules in effect when the changes are made.

IOW, if the rules changes are made in 2008 then all existing 2008 engines would be legal. It would be patently unfair and IMO unconscionable to retroactively make legal engines illegal. If the intent is to establish an engine restriction based on production numbers and year I'd concentrate on using the 2008 engines as a limitation with effective date for the rules of 01/01/09. There are apparently several who are building their 2008 cars to the extant rules. They should not be punished for their efforts at a later date.

[Jon Jeffords]

If someone wants to re-invent the wheel (cooling, oiling, yada yada) for an engine that will most likely be illegal (min production rule being discussed) in 09, hey- you'll have an advantage at the 08 ARRC.

A minimum production requirement will be difficult for SCCA to enforce, as production volumes for specific motorcycle models are not available to the general public.

To validate the volume requirement in AMA Superstock and Supersport, the vehicle manufacturer (eg Honda, Suzuki, MV Augusta) must fill out an AMA form that certifies their intent to import a minimum of XXX units. Perhaps SCCA will come up with a similar form and certification process for the manufacturers to submit? Probably not.

Aprilia plans to go Superbike racing in '08 with the 999cc / 210 HP engine shown in the link below, which (according to my sources) is more than likely to find it's way onto a street-legal bike sometime thereafter. Cha-ching.

http://www.apriliausa.com/njb_dettaglio.asp?id=368

Which of the following two engine rules is the lesser of two evils for the FB class:
A) Any street legal motorcycle engine under 1000cc.
B) Any street legal Honda, Suzuki, Kawasaki, or Yamaha motorcycle engine under 1000cc.

[rickb99]

I have a question just out of curiosity as we are running FC.

The Desmo engine. I thought the European's had a "sorta rule" that street bikes should somehow be limited to top speeds of 185 MPH. Yes, no? That Desmo thingy has gotta equal an LMP set up for LeMans at terminal velocity (terminal meaning more then just speed). Unless the ECU limits the RPM"s in 9th gear or something.

Funny you should mention limiting by manufacturer. My son said that the other night but was thinking ONE brand. Told him that wouldn't work. But using multiple 'brands', minimum built and year of manufacture might keep that 'specialty' stuff from playing havoc with FB.

[KevinFirlein]

In the entire history of SCCA you can prolly count on one hand and still have fingers left over the amount of times SCCA has taken something from a competitor.

Stevie Wonder could see this comming. A driver installing a completely legal motor in his car that makes more power then what his rivals are currently running........gee ya think ?

[RussMcB]

Just thinking out loud ...

Man, just a very short time ago, who would have seriously thought someone would put a ultra expensive, rare exotic bike engine into a chassis for FB? I know it was considered and discussed, but holy smokes. Should there have been a rule from the very beginning to prohibit it? If I was on the original rules committee, I would have laughed off that possibility. No way would anybody do that! Shows how smart I am.

I can't help but think the cat's out of the bag and the horses are out of the barn. How can this situation be reigned in without being unfair to people who have followed the rules?

It's really going to hurt the class if someone can write a big check and easily walk away from "normal" cars on the straights.

I wonder if they (people who may be building cars with Desmo engines and such) would understand that rules changes that would penalize them would be good for the class's future. F1000 has the opportunity to be GREAT, if we do it right. It certainly has started off with a lot of enthusiam.

Maybe someone smart will come up with a way to cap all engines at 180 HP.

Feel free to take jabs at the above comments. I'm just rambling on ...

BTW, I'm still enthused about the class. I expect to have fun with my relatively low cost investment. (I say relative because my wife thinks it unbelievably expensive. Of course, she's right. :-).

[carnut169]

Sean,

I can't speak for the Comp Board or the Advisory Committees but my guess would be that any such rule changes will not obsolete any legal engines under the rules in effect when the changes are made.

IOW, if the rules changes are made in 2008 then all existing 2008 engines would be legal. It would be patently unfair and IMO unconscionable to retroactively make legal engines illegal. If the intent is to establish an engine restriction based on production numbers and year I'd concentrate on using the 2008 engines as a limitation with effective date for the rules of 01/01/09. There are apparently several who are building their 2008 cars to the extant rules. They should not be punished for their efforts at a later date.

Good point. However, I need to add that this person was informed of the discussions and that a min production rule may be iminent (prior to building the car or installing the engine).

We just want what's best for the class- this may end up being a mute point as there just are not that many of these engines available and with no one working out the bugs the advantage may be short-lived.

[Lee Stohr]

How about a rule for in-line four cylinder only?
I think MotoGp are all V4s, but I'm not positive.
It is technically possible to get the rules changed right now, it's called 'errors, omissions and corrections' SCCA does it all the time.

[rickb99]

Good idea Lee. When you change it, might want to add a comment that you can only use ONE 4 cylinder in-line engine too. That will keep the likes of Tommy Ivo from coming up with a 2 or 3 engine car.

[Daryl DeArman]

Man, just a very short time ago, who would have seriously thought someone would put a ultra expensive, rare exotic bike engine into a chassis for FB?

It wasn't that long ago that people were saying that a motorcycle engine wouldn't be able to keep up with a pinto given the difference in torque.

[John LaRue]

How about a claiming rule?

[Jon Jeffords]

How about a rule for in-line four cylinder only?
I think MotoGp are all V4s, but I'm not positive.

Wait a minute, Lee. I had planned on strolling the Harley archives tomorrow in search of a neglected V-4 NOVA engine.
http://www.bikerenews.com/AntiqueBikes/CodeNameNova.htm

Regarding MotoGP: when the 990cc four-strokes came out in 2002, Yamaha and Kawasaki were inline fours, Duc and Suzuki were V-4, and Honda was V-5.

Displacement was then reduced to 800cc for the 2007 season, with Yam and Kaw keeping the I-4 config, and the rest with V-4's.

[Mark Walthew]

Regarding the suggestion to change to inline 4 motors only aren't there a couple of RC-51 (V twin) powered cars already out there? Seems unfair to make them illegal. I was looking forward to see how they do against the 4 cylinder cars.
The Ducati Desmo is a rare and valuable bike. I doubt many motors will find their way into the class and once one goes bang I doubt it will get replaced.

[Charles Warner]

Good point. However, I need to add that this person was informed of the discussions and that a min production rule may be iminent (prior to building the car or installing the engine).

Sean, that point might hold a leeeetle bit of water had it been clearly made by the Comp Board. That is was made by a group of (well-intentioned) racers that already have cars on the track does nothing to lend credence to it. Just because discussions are made the only boundaries are provided by the rules as they are wrritten.

We just want what's best for the class- this may end up being a mute point as there just are not that many of these engines available and with no one working out the bugs the advantage may be short-lived.

I wonder if they (people who may be building cars with Desmo engines and such) would understand that rules changes that would penalize them would be good for the class's future.

Russ, I seriously doubt it. There is no sense of sacrifice in this business. The name of the game is to get to the flag first legally. As has been mentioned many, many times before - there is always someone with deep pockets who is willing to spend whatever it takes to win. This is true even in pure spec classes. Kevin is absolutely accurate that all should have been able to predict exactly what is happening. In fact, there were several that did and were either ignored or chastised for having no faith and imagination when in truth they had a good grasp of reality that was not being blinded by enthusiasm.

You are correct - the cat is well and truly out of the bag. Zymurgy's Law of Expanding Systems states that the only way to put the worms back in the can is to get a bigger can. All you guys can do is limit the damage by looking to 2009. Anything you are able to get passed by the Comp Board will take a great deal of time, so start now.

[Matt Conrad]

Quickshoe stated:

Hey Matt,

It is "only" $72,500 for the whole bike. I doubt it will cost another $27,500 to develop the motor.

How about a spare engine? You're probably not going to find one on ebay...

Matt Conrad
Phoenix Race Works, LLC

[Lee Stohr]

I forgot the motogp stuff is down to 800cc. That would almost eliminate that problem, I guess. Even if they have the power of a stock 1000, they probably don't have the torque.

[cparsons]

John, that claiming rule is interesting. They use it in horse racing. $XX and the horse is yours. That might be the answer. Keep the amount low, $2,000-$4,000, enough to cover a crate I4 from the major manufacturers. That is definitely food for thought.

[jabro1000]

I have to agree with Brands on this one: borders on criminal to ruin a beautiful marvel of Italian engineering for the sake of a race motor that will be blown to smithereens within a single season.

[Dave Welsh]

IMCA has had a engine claiming rule in effect for their modified series for a number of years.


Here is a link to the Modified rules section, scroll down to item 25.

http://www.imca.com/rules.php?divisionid=1


Here is the link to the claiming procedure. Scroll down to ALL CLAIM PROCEDURES


http://www.imca.com/rules.php?divisionid=10

[Jon Jeffords]

For AMA claiming rules, see page 28 and page 38.

http://www.amaproracing.com/prorace/...07%20Final.pdf

[Purple Frog]

This picture was just taken tonight by a black unlit helicopter on its return flight back from doing strange things to cattle in SW Georgia. From the looks of it somebody is converting a FC car to FB and going to use a Zuma powerplant! And obviously this individual must be a deranged Morgan fan. It appears he is going to use the wood on the floor to build the subframe!

The sky is falling! The sky is falling. We need to change the FB rules before this insanity gets out of control!



Seriously, I reread the opening post of this thread. Is somebody really building a Ducati FB, OR... is there a Ducati parked in the same shop as a partially assembled FC? Big difference. Is everybody running around screaming 'the sky is falling' based on a rumor, or fact?

[cooleyjb]

This picture was just taken tonight by a black unlit helicopter on its return flight back from doing strange things to cattle in SW Georgia. From the looks of it somebody is converting a FC car to FB and going to use a Zuma powerplant! And obviously this individual must be a deranged Morgan fan. It appears he is going to use the wood on the floor to build the subframe!

The sky is falling! The sky is falling. We need to change the FB rules before this insanity gets out of control!



Seriously, I reread the opening post of this thread. Is somebody really building a Ducati FB, OR... is there a Ducati parked in the same shop as a partially assembled FC? Big difference. Is everybody running around screaming 'the sky is falling' based on a rumor, or fact?

LMI isn't the type to just have a motorcycle sitting around the shop. Right now the place is packed to the brim with cars to the point that Bruce was talking about bringing cars back to his home shop to work on some of the longer projects when I talked to him last. I should know more tomorrow. I have to go down there to do some final touches to send my motor off to Farley and figure out some other things that need to be done over the winter.

[HazelNut]

No, it's just evolved (quickly) into two classes: big-bucks FB, and small-bucks FB (CFB).

What's ironic is that the CFB's seem generally to have been CFC's in their previous lives.

CFB? you gotta be freakin kiddin me.

How about we just start giving each car it's own class.? So if my number is 31 i will race in the "FC31" class, car # 32 can be an "FC32", and the #33 car be an "FC33" and we can all be guaranteed a trophy!!!!

Enough with creating new classes. The splintering of classes is what is KILLING openwheel cars.

[preform resources]

What about the idea posted earlier of limiting engines to a certain minimum number of sales in the U.S..this proposal smacks of Penske and the Indy 500 a few years back.I can't imagine with world wide sales of Ducatti at around 50000 units that many Desmo sedici's will reach these shores, compared to tens of thousands of the inline fours,,,,just a thought.
Dave Craddock

[Jon Jeffords]

Is everybody running around screaming 'the sky is falling' based on a rumor, or fact?

I like to break it down into two questions:
1. Is it possible? Yes, the rules will allow the Desmodici motor.
2. Is it probable? That's the $65,000 question.

I bumped into a long-time motorcycle road racer at the coffee machine this afternoon. When I told him of the rumor of a D'dici in our back yard in Darien, WI, he chuckled, shook his head, and indicated the owner will need the best of luck in keeping the motor alive when living near the redline. Hmmmm.

I hope it lasts long enough to hear it launch out of Corner 5 at the June Sprints.

[Fatoldman7]

]I’m new to all this, so I’m don’t have much history with these cars, so here’s my thoughts on rules and exotic motors showing up. Maybe you need a rule that states that a motor needs so many units to be manufactured before it could be used in this class. This would keep out exotic motors, and if Suzuki came out with a 200hp motor in the next few years, it wouldn’t be allowed to compete until a certain amount of units were sold. This would keep older motors current, and there would be a supply of newer motors once they became legal. Just throwing out ideas.

[Bill Bonow]

A phone call from Darien,WI this morning informed me that my mouth may be larger than it should be. Therefor, his purpleness is correct. I saw what must have been a new tricked out Vespa pit bike under the blanket and its winter rebuild time for all those pinto motors.

Go about your regular business, all is well.

"I saw nothing!"

[R. Pare]

For those who are contemplating institution a minimum manufacture number to keep out the low-volume specials, the Ducati site states that 1500 examples will be built, so you will need to use a number higher than that.

[stonebridge20]

This picture was just taken tonight by a black unlit helicopter on its return flight back from doing strange things to cattle in SW Georgia. From the looks of it somebody is converting a FC car to FB and going to use a Zuma powerplant! And obviously this individual must be a deranged Morgan fan. It appears he is going to use the wood on the floor to build the subframe!

The sky is falling! The sky is falling. We need to change the FB rules before this insanity gets out of control!



Seriously, I reread the opening post of this thread. Is somebody really building a Ducati FB, OR... is there a Ducati parked in the same shop as a partially assembled FC? Big difference. Is everybody running around screaming 'the sky is falling' based on a rumor, or fact?

F/Z