What cars are you guys converting???

[outlawzracing]

I have an old 440 that I am converting to be a f1000 I am using an 2006 Honda cbr 1000 rr motor. I am just starting the build, and I am writing this thread to see if there is any one with some suggestions for me before I get to deep in to this build. thanks and have a good day.

outlawz racing

[RobLav]

Honestly, I would not spend the time, money, and effort doing this. You don't know if the 440 chassis will take the loads, and the suspension will never be as good as an FC/FF/FB.

[RussMcB]

I'd have to agree. The HP & weight might equate to 150 MPH which might be too much for the short wheel base 440 chassis.

[Purple Frog]

Outlaw,

if anybody would have advice for a 440 conversion, it would be Jay Novak.

Call him, and listen to what he says.

[glenn cooper]

if you do decide to go through with this, it might be a good idea to get it on film.

The Darwin Award needs some fresh nominatin'!

Seriously though, it sounds like an evil concept - best stay clear.

GC

[outlawzracing]

I didn't tell you but I am making the front track 62" the rear is going to be 58" the wheel base is going to be 99". what do you think about this, please tell me if you would do any thing different. thanks

[formulasuper]

If you're making all those changes what part will still be from a F440?

[outlawzracing]

the only part of the 440 that I am keeping is the cockpit. Dose that help. thanks

[outlawzracing]

what are you guys using for springs? I need to know what lbs you are using for the front and rear. thanks

[outlawzracing]

if you do decide to go through with this, it might be a good idea to get it on film.

The Darwin Award needs some fresh nominatin'!

Seriously though, it sounds like an evil concept - best stay clear.

GC

Hey that real nice to say. thanks

[glenn cooper]

Nice? Possibly not, BUT IN A GOOD WAY!
I've driven a bucket or 2 in my time and wouldn't wish it on anyone else...
Good luck

[outlawzracing]

Nice? Possibly not, BUT IN A GOOD WAY!
I've driven a bucket or 2 in my time and wouldn't wish it on anyone else...
Good luck

wow a bucket, thanks I am sorry that I am trying some thing different then you guys. I guess it was a bad idea to come on this forum. thanks have a good day

[formulasuper]

the only part of the 440 that I am keeping is the cockpit. Dose that help. thanks

Depending on the year of manufacture of the F440 the front & main roll bars may be too small to be legal for FB. The older F440 roll bars must be replaced to meet the newer requirements of the GCR rule book.

[RussMcB]

wow a bucket, thanks I am sorry that I am trying some thing different then you guys. I guess it was a bad idea to come on this forum. thanks have a good day

Wait, wait. We're all well meaning here. I think when you mentioned F440 we all pictured the small, short WB car with hardly any suspension. The F1000 race cars that have been racing are extremely fast and to be frank, most of us were politely trying to save your life.

Being different is a big part of this class, so don't worry about us holding that against you.

To help us understand that you might have good ideas, tell us about your past racing experiences. You're new to this group, so for all we know, you could be some yahoo that doesn't have a clue. We apologize if we haven't given you a fair shake.

Re: Springs. Do you mean wheel rates? There are so many different suspension designs that springs rates is pretty useless info. Will your car have push rods, rocker arms?

[RobLav]

No offense meant outlawz... I see you are in NY - you are welcome to come up to my shop to see what I am doing and discuss your project.

Russ is right - could you explain your background a bit? And I too pictured the old 440 chassis with no suspension...

We expect the FB cars to eventually handle 3 G's. Not sure the 440 chassis is designed to cover that. We're really trying to keep you out of trouble.

[formulasuper]

I'm a former F440 owner & driver for many years starting in 1988 with a 1986 Red Devil F440 & then purchased a brand new 1989 Red Devil that took me to the SEDIV National Points Championship in 97 after much modification. One modification was the mandated roll bar diameter size increase. I believe that 89 frame was built, after roll bar mod, as well as some FC frames & should be able to handle the 1000cc power of the FB class engines. However, as has been pointed out, the wheelbase is too short & with the roll bar mod (front & main) needing to be done I would think starting from scratch would definately be easier, quicker & less exspensive way to go. There is no copy right laws on race cars so just find a design you like & go at it if you don't want to purchase a factory built one.

[outlawzracing]

Wait, wait. We're all well meaning here. I think when you mentioned F440 we all pictured the small, short WB car with hardly any suspension. The F1000 race cars that have been racing are extremely fast and to be frank, most of us were politely trying to save your life.

Being different is a big part of this class, so don't worry about us holding that against you.

To help us understand that you might have good ideas, tell us about your past racing experiences. You're new to this group, so for all we know, you could be some yahoo that doesn't have a clue. We apologize if we haven't given you a fair shake.

Re: Springs. Do you mean wheel rates? There are so many different suspension designs that springs rates is pretty useless info. Will your car have push rods, rocker arms?

my car will be set up with an push rod going to a bellcrank.

[outlawzracing]

I'm a former F440 owner & driver for many years starting in 1988 with a 1986 Red Devil F440 & then purchased a brand new 1989 Red Devil that took me to the SEDIV National Points Championship in 97 after much modification. One modification was the mandated roll bar diameter size increase. I believe that 89 frame was built, after roll bar mod, as well as some FC frames & should be able to handle the 1000cc power of the FB class engines. However, as has been pointed out, the wheelbase is too short & with the roll bar mod (front & main) needing to be done I would think starting from scratch would definately be easier, quicker & less exspensive way to go. There is no copy right laws on race cars so just find a design you like & go at it if you don't want to purchase a factory built one.

When I bought this car there were upgrades done to the rear and front roll bar this car was road raced till last year it also was a hill climber. I have about 4 year of racing under my belt. I started off racing karts and I have the 440 and played last year with it in solo racing and now I am building it for the F1000 class. I am going to build this car no mater what any one tells me on this thread. I was coming on to this forum to get ideas and support. I got nothing but put down. I will see you guys in about 1 1/2 years. thanks and have a good day.

[Stan Clayton]

I can understand how some of the more, ahem...'enthusiastic' responses might have made you feel unwelcome.

In the meantime, though, please do get in touch with Jay Novak. He has built an "F-600" (600cc m/c engine in an F-500 chassis), and no doubt could be a valuable source of information for you.

As for springs, a low downforce car can get away with a 1-to-1 ratio of spring rate to wheel rate as a starting point. A moderate downforce car may need 2:1, while a high downforce (peak downforce > car weight) might need a 3:1 or even 4:1.

Good luck!

Stan

[outlawzracing]

I can understand how some of the more, ahem...'enthusiastic' responses might have made you feel unwelcome.

In the meantime, though, please do get in touch with Jay Novak. He has built an "F-600" (600cc m/c engine in an F-500 chassis), and no doubt could be a valuable source of information for you.

As for springs, a low downforce car can get away with a 1-to-1 ratio of spring rate to wheel rate as a starting point. A moderate downforce car may need 2:1, while a high downforce (peak downforce > car weight) might need a 3:1 or even 4:1.

Good luck!

Stan

Thank you you seem to be nice and willing to help with some ideas. can you please enplane what this means " As for springs, a low downforce car can get away with a 1-to-1 ratio of spring rate to wheel rate as a starting point. A moderate downforce car may need 2:1, while a high downforce (peak downforce > car weight) might need a 3:1 or even 4:1." I am not sure what this means.

thanks for all you incite.

[P. Howarth]

Motion ratio is the amount the wheel moves compared to the shock/spring combo.
I would expect 1:1 at 800-1000lbs spring per corner. I think part of the reason you are getting some of these advisory responses is that you sound like you are about to start, but you are still in the planning stages.
Your original question for this post was; “what type of car are you converting?” The answer will be almost entirely FC/F2000. There are a couple FF/F1600 conversions, but I don't think those drivers expect to be competitive.
I like the idea of a low slung driving position similar to the 440/500, but I'd want to be sure that is a safe position to crash at FA/FB speeds.
The people converting FC's will tell you that this is a ton of work and they are mostly trying to stay close to stock on the suspension.
What you are doing sounds like a complete redesign with the exception of about 10 tubes and part of the belly pan.
You might be better off measuring what you have so at least you will have something to drive during the next couple years of building your FB.
If you are trying to save money by starting with the 440, you might want to see what it will cost for the suspension parts. You might find it cheaper to sell the 440 and buy a FC.

[Stan Clayton]

Thank you you seem to be nice and willing to help with some ideas. can you please enplane what this means " As for springs, a low downforce car can get away with a 1-to-1 ratio of spring rate to wheel rate as a starting point. A moderate downforce car may need 2:1, while a high downforce (peak downforce > car weight) might need a 3:1 or even 4:1." I am not sure what this means.

thanks for all you incite.

Sorry about confusing the issue...I need to learn to proof read.

I meant to write that on a low downforce car you can start by selecting a spring rate that gives your car a wheel rate equal to its static corner weight (the 1:1 ratio), then go up in multiples as downforce increases.

Let's start with some definitions...

Corner weight is the weight on each tire with the driver in the car. FB cars must weight a minimum of 1000 lbs, and formula cars typically have about 40% of their weight on the front tires, so your car is going to have static front corner weights in the neighborhood of 200 lbs per front corner (and 300 at each rear corner).

Wheel rate equals spring rate times motion ratio squared [WR=SR*(MR^2)]. Motion ratio is the amount the spring is compressed for each inch the tire rises (like when it goes over a bump). You can find your car's motion ratio in the shop by disconnecting the damper and measuring how car the bellcrank moves for each inch you raise the tire (you may have to put the car up on blocks to do this). If the damper mount hole moves an inch for each inch you raise the tire, that corner's motion ratio is 1. If it moves half an inch per inch of tire movement, the ratio is .5, etc.

Okay, let's say you measure your front motion ratio as 1 and the rear at .7, and you figure your car has moderate downforce (probably a good guess for a starting point). The equation works like this...let's say your car's front corner weights is 200 and you want to start with a spring that will give you a wheel rate that is twice the corner weight, or 400 lbs:

Using a little high school algebra we can convert WR=SR*(MR^2) to WR/(MR^2)=SR, or

400/1 = 400 lb/in springs for the front corners.

For the rear we do it like this: WR/(MR^2)=SR = 600/(.7^2) = 600/.49 = 1225 lb/in springs.

There's an example for a place to start for a medium downforce car. You might try them and find the car too stiff for your liking, and soften the springs. Other factors come into play here that I have not covered, but it's a place to start.

Have fun!

Stan

[Kevin Morris]

I think what Mr. Clayton was referring to was the ratio of wheel rate to corner weight. The wheel rate is the spring rate that the wheel "sees" which is the spring rate multiplied by the square of the "motion ratio" which is the ratio of wheel vertical travel to spring travel for your setup.

The corner weight is the amount of weight resting on that tire (corner) of the car. For a non-aero car a wheel rate equal to corner weight might be a good starting point, or go higher the more downforce you have.

There have been various F500 cars made into DSRs over the years. If you look at the sportsracer web site (http://sportsracer.net) and go into the "Chassis" section and poke around you will find some cars like this, such as the Nova Cat, KBS, Predator etc. These cars are heavily modified from F500 form - they all have springs/shocks, extended chassis, etc. Lots of ideas there.

[outlawzracing]

this is the type of info I was looking for If there is any thing else that you would like to share with me that would make my project easer I would love to hear it.


thanks

[outlawzracing]

Are there any book out there that can help me with the build?

[formulasuper]

Are there any book out there that can help me with the build?

Yes, there are several books by Carroll Smith with the exact info you need. A couple are; Engineer to win, Prepare to Win, etc. Do a Google search for this author & you should find all his books listed. They are a "must read" for race car builders.

[Purple Frog]

It is always safe to start off reading all of Carroll Smith's books.

Racing Chassis and Suspension Design
http://www.sae.org/technical/books/PT-90

Engineer to Win
Prepare to Win
Tune to Win
Drive to Win
Nuts, Bolts, Fasteners, and Plumbing


You may also want to check on Bill Mitchell's program WinGeo.

Race Car Vehicle Dynamics by Milliken and Milliken

[outlawzracing]

thanks for the book. I will get it.

[preform resources]

Outlawzz,I'm curious as to whether you will retain the live axle? this would be interesting as Jay Novak has shown with the Novakar a live axle minimally suspended car can fly!
Dave Craddock

[outlawzracing]

Outlawzz,I'm curious as to whether you will retain the live axle? this would be interesting as Jay Novak has shown with the Novakar a live axle minimally suspended car can fly!
Dave Craddock

I am having an axle cut for me it will be 57" by 1 1/4 crom. So yes I will be trying out the sold axle. You say that the Novak fly with it, How so?

thanks and have a good day

[preform resources]

Jay Novak designed and built the 07 formula 500 national champion car driven by his son Brian,the top f-5 cars are running as fast or faster than formula fords all whille running 1"x1.5 rubber pucks for suspension and no shocks as we know them and of course the mandatory live rear axle.Obviously a live axle has'nt dampened their performance.
http://preformresources.com/albums/N.../05_winner.jpg