Is Ralt RT-40 BOSS eligible?

[Rick Ross]

It is my understanding that Ralt RT-40 Toyota Atlantic cars are eligible for SVRA and HSR competition. Can those of you involved in vintage racing confirm if this is correct? Thanks.

[Stan Clayton]

Rick, I did "sound control" for a CSRG vintage event a while back. At the Saturday afternoon social I was introduced as "a Ralt RT-41 guy" ... and was promptly invited to join the Club. When I mildly protested that the car was not "vintage-eligible" my objections were poo-poo'd on the grounds that the car was no longer Pro-eligible, so maybe you can actually run SVRA or HSR. No harm to check with them! Stan

[FWSchroeder]

Charles Monk had a Beautiful RT41 at the SVRA Zippo in September.
i'd email SVRA, they have always been quick to reply.
Regards, Fred

[dereklola]

Yes!
- just check their websites for both regs and results!

[stonebridge20]

Vintage eligible definition------ BRING ENTRY FEE and your "Vintage eligible"

[dereklola]

Vintage eligible definition------ BRING ENTRY FEE and your "Vintage eligible"

Hey Mike - that sounds a little cynical - let's try to put it in perspective. Most vintage race clubs and their class groupings are very specific. Sometimes exceptions are made - "His car's a year beyond our cutoff date but otherwise he and his car seem to fit in - we'll accept him" - often this will be in a separate subclass so that he doesn't win anything - just comes along and enjoys himself. If a class is oversubscribed exceptions will be rare. If undersubscribed more exceptions are likely.

This, unfortunately, is what is happening in the F70 and BOSS groups - entries are somewhat lower than ideal and so more modern cars are being accepted both by regulation and by exception.

Then there is the other factor - some people have fixed notions of what vintage means - pre-1972 or pre 1960 or, when I was young, pre-war! And then they are surprised or upset when a race organizer (for instance HSR) deliberately sets out to cater for later models that have nowhere else to run. What's wrong with that?

Back to BOSS and Rick's question. BOSS set out to cater for fairly recent, high powered single seaters like F1 and turbo Champ cars - they even frowned on Indy Lights cars because, at only 450bhp they were considered low powered. After an initial spurt of enthusiasm many entrants decided that the cars really were beyond their driving ability, or their maintenance capability, or their pocket book, or any combination of the above and entry levels shrank. So now we have Indy Lights and post-85 Atlantics welcome in BOSS alongside the more powerful cars. And sometimes we run with the Monoposto F70 group - not ideal in view of the lap time and driving style discrepancy but better than staying at home. Speaking of lap time differentials though I've just been looking at the Runoffs' range of lap times within the same class - not much different from some vintage classes!

Come on in - the water's fine.

[Rick Ross]

Thanks to all for the great info. It appeared to me from the HSR/SVRA websites that the RT-40 would be allowed, but I wanted to ask the experts. I currently own a DB4 (which is vintage eligible), but I recently looked at a very nice RT-40 and was just curious if vintage racing would be an option. All I need now is a little more garage space.....and a lot more money!

Rick

[Charles Warner]

You need to be careful in your nomenclature, as Derek alluded to. The RT-40/41 is NOT vintage eligible. It is eligible for the BOSS (Big Open Single Seater) series which has no age requirements. Yes, they are slower than originally intended. However, most of their lap times are comparable to many of the cars as driven in the class. They are only really slow when it comes to acceleration, and their brakes are pretty good compared to the other cars.

IOW, if there is no BOSS gropup scheduled it's a definite possibility (probability?) that the RT-40/41 (and maybe even the DB-4) would not be allowed to play. Check the sups.

[dereklola]

You need to be careful in your nomenclature........

I agree with Charles so to be as specific as I can -
- SVRA will almost certainly let you run with either car in their Group 9 Cat II (thru 1999)
- - - just submitting an entry will get them to 'vet' your entry
- - - but to be sure you can always email their Jack Woerhle ahead of time
- the HSR BOSS group does by definition include both your cars (1972 on, 1985 on)
- - - so any HSR/SVRA event including BOSS will accept your cars.

In practice I've observed several 'later model' Atlantics at both HSR and SVRA events the last few years. Some have been well driven and compete with the Indy Lights etc - others have been 'average' drivers and no faster than the earlier F70 (pre-80) Atlantics.

Most races are 20 min sprint races. However if you're so inclined several events will let you run 60/75 min enduros - great fun!

Just for your info HSR and SVRA are nominally separate entities but they do share common owners and common headquarters - and their separate staff members often sub for each other whenever necessary.

Hope that helps - ask more if you want. Derek

[Paddy O'Brien]

Rick, It was early 2005 when the Boss series first allowed the "modern" Atlantics to run with them. So that year I tried to enter the Boss race at the BRIC at Road America with YOUR car and was turned down. They told me that it was ok on the slower tracks but that they were worried about the 60mph top speed difference(Larry Connor Benneton) at RA and the Glen and so that year they didn't let the Atlantics run with them at those tracks. However this year and 06 I saw a couple of Swift 014s and Ralt41s run the Boss race at the BRIC. Are you selling that pos Swift??

[dereklola]

That is a big spectator event, spectator oriented and the track selects which entries it wants. From memory there was a good BOSS entry of high powered cars in 2005 and the track obviously thought 'little' Atlantics would spoil their show. It's a great event - I go most years but you've got to understand the background to certain things.

The local Legion hall will let me play their piano but Carnegie Hall won't. Same deal.

[Rick Ross]

Paddy -- no current plans to sell that "pos" Swift......but feel free to make me an offer .

Derek and Charles --- thanks for the info. Would either of you care to share your thoughts on the future of these Atlantic cars (DB4/RT-40) in vintage racing. Do you think that they will continue to be accepted at most HSR/SVRA type events? Or do you forsee a "tightening" of the rules wherein they may be less welcome in the future?

[dereklola]

Do you think that these Atlantic cars (DB4/RT-40) will continue to be accepted at most HSR/SVRA type events?

Personally - Yes.

Or do you foresee a "tightening" of the rules wherein they may be less welcome in the future?

No.

If both BOSS and F70 grids increase then they will be split again. In the meantime it is likely that they will often be combined - in my experience this is no major problem - sure you have to aware of speed differentials etc - but, you know what, there is a greater speed differential between my car and the Armco than between my car and a Champ car!

As I said before - come on in the waters fine - and the sharks are friendly. You don't need to make a big commitment - just try a couple of events.

Derek

[Charles Warner]

Derek and Charles --- thanks for the info. Would either of you care to share your thoughts on the future of these Atlantic cars (DB4/RT-40) in vintage racing. Do you think that they will continue to be accepted at most HSR/SVRA type events? Or do you forsee a "tightening" of the rules wherein they may be less welcome in the future?

I see the atlantics of the latter era always allowed in the BOSS groupings. They are needed for numbers and are comparable in lap times. As far as the F70 group I'm not sure. Not being familiar with the concept of the class or the powers-that-be I'd hesitate to say whether they will be allowed into race groups that do not include the BOSS cars. That's why I was so particular about semantics. Not all vintage/historic events include the BOSS group. So, always check the on-line sups or groupings to determine. And, if in doubt, call Jack or whoever is in charge of that event. Provbably HSR/SVRA is a safe bet but I'd be really leery of the other vintage/historic groups out there.

[stonebridge20]

Hey Mike - that sounds a little cynical - let's try to put it in perspective. Most vintage race clubs and their class groupings are very specific. Sometimes exceptions are made - "His car's a year beyond our cutoff date but otherwise he and his car seem to fit in - we'll accept him" - often this will be in a separate subclass so that he doesn't win anything - just comes along and enjoys himself. If a class is oversubscribed exceptions will be rare. If undersubscribed more exceptions are likely.

This, unfortunately, is what is happening in the F70 and BOSS groups - entries are somewhat lower than ideal and so more modern cars are being accepted both by regulation and by exception.

Then there is the other factor - some people have fixed notions of what vintage means - pre-1972 or pre 1960 or, when I was young, pre-war! And then they are surprised or upset when a race organizer (for instance HSR) deliberately sets out to cater for later models that have nowhere else to run. What's wrong with that?

Back to BOSS and Rick's question. BOSS set out to cater for fairly recent, high powered single seaters like F1 and turbo Champ cars - they even frowned on Indy Lights cars because, at only 450bhp they were considered low powered. After an initial spurt of enthusiasm many entrants decided that the cars really were beyond their driving ability, or their maintenance capability, or their pocket book, or any combination of the above and entry levels shrank. So now we have Indy Lights and post-85 Atlantics welcome in BOSS alongside the more powerful cars. And sometimes we run with the Monoposto F70 group - not ideal in view of the lap time and driving style discrepancy but better than staying at home. Speaking of lap time differentials though I've just been looking at the Runoffs' range of lap times within the same class - not much different from some vintage classes!

Come on in - the water's fine.

Derek, I really don't want to get into my personal views on Vintage racing (HSR/SVRA) here on a public forum. Let's all remember they ARE for profit orginazations. I did my "stint" in a Ralt RT1 Atlantic for a few years as you may remember. I had a GREAT time! Racing and the people were fantastic. I encourage everybody to try it,.... in a VINTAGE racecar!

As far as speed differential between Larry Connor in a F1 car and some "gentlemen racer" in an old Super Vee. It's a disaster waiting to happen! You may also want to edit your theory on closing rates between Champ cars, Atlantics and guard rails. Guardrails are VERY much more predictable. They have NO brain!

Mike Agnifilo

[dereklola]

Just two quick comments -
- Charles - SVRA now has their Group 9 split into two Categories -
- - - Cat I - Monoposto F70 (Atlantics through 1979 without ground effects)
- - - Cat II - 1980-1999 (Atlantics 80-89 and Toyota Atlantics 90-99)
- so both HSR(BOSS) and SVRA now cover the models Rick is inquiring about.

- Mike - I'm sure we agree 99.9% - we're just expressing things slightly differently. Interesting that you refer to your RT1 as a true vintage car - when F70 started just over 10 years ago many 'vintage' people didn't want them - "vintage cars don't have wings and slicks" etc etc. Times change.

And I was of course being lighthearted (on a serious subject) with my comment on guard rails - although thinking about it the impact with the guard rail or wall usually does far more damage or injury than hitting another car. But, again, I agree with you - the bigger the speed differential the bigger the potential for 'misunderstanding'.

[DB4 Tim]

So how are the views on this now

[bill gillespie]

Hi Rick,

Chris and I both ran the last SVRA race at Road Atlanta....DB4 and RT41.......no problem.....How about the 'Mitty" coming up at RA in April?

Regards,
Bill

[Chris Forrer]

Bill,
I hope this means you'll be at RA.
C'mon Rick. It would be great to have you at The Mitty this year if you promise to slow down a wee bit. I'm going to start working on Greg J. too. Greg, you out there?
Chris

[DB4 Tim]

So which one came out on top...

Hi Rick,

Chris and I both ran the last SVRA race at Road Atlanta....DB4 and RT41.......no problem.....How about the 'Mitty" coming up at RA in April?

Regards,
Bill

[Rick Ross]

Well, I haven't taken the car to Road Atlanta yet, so it is tempting. I am assuming that Turn 1 would be flat in the DB4?

[bill gillespie]

Claude Bourbannis (sp) was the first to do it in an Atlantic RT40 ...prorace. I didn't believe it was possible till I watched him do it......however, he barrel rolled the car on the exit of the 5th, or 6th attempt....sweet.

regards,
Bill

[stonebridge20]

Claude Bourbannis (sp) was the first to do it in an Atlantic RT40 ...prorace. I didn't believe it was possible till I watched him do it......however, he barrel rolled the car on the exit of the 5th, or 6th attempt....sweet.

regards,
Bill

Bill, Greg Ray was flat every lap through turn 1 in Atlanta at the 1993 Runoffs in a DB4. I watched him during the Sunday test and figured I could do it by the final qualifing session in my DB4 since I had never been to Atlanta and never driven a DB4 prior to the Runoffs. In Thursday qualifing, I tried it one time. I saw the Devil. He said "boy, don't ever try that again or your coming with me" I never tried it again!


.

[bill gillespie]

I watched Greg also......hand in a cast, started last, I think.....ownned the field. Tom Knapp engineered the car, and I never saw a DB4 run that fast.

Sounds like most lift a little, go up the hill in 5th, and catch 4th as gravity takes over.......I might have heard the Grant boys take it flat a couple of times......not sure.

Bill

[John Thompson]

I know we ran T1 at Road Atlanta flat in a DB4 in '88. Once you were able to suck it up to do it the first time it was a real rush, after that it became relativly "easy"...

I don't know if I could do it today, I was a lot younger and braver then. Actually, I have not had to fortune to run Road Atlanta since 1988, it is on my list of tracks to get back to...John

[stonebridge20]

I watched Greg also......hand in a cast, started last, I think.....ownned the field. Tom Knapp engineered the car, and I never saw a DB4 run that fast.

Sounds like most lift a little, go up the hill in 5th, and catch 4th as gravity takes over.......I might have heard the Grant boys take it flat a couple of times......not sure.

Bill

Ray was on pole by something stupid like 2 seconds. He closed his hand in his hotel room door the night before the race. Broke two fingers and had them taped strait out. On the warm up lap he hit the ignition switch by accident. We all went by him. I thought "hell we gota a race now" He radioed to his crew and they said to cycle the ignition and try starting it. The car fired and he started dead last. I think he passed me (P5) about lap 3 around the outside of T3. That's the last I saw of him!

[Chris Forrer]

So which one came out on top...

I destroyed him! In all fairness Bill had fuel pickup issues the entire weekend which didn't get resolved until Sunday . We never got to play. Maybe this year.

Rick,
If you come and do T1 flat I'll try it too. What the heck. Time to meet the devil.

[glenn cooper]

"The Devil went down to Georgia...?

GC

PS It would probably be "easier" to do T1 flat now, as opposed to past versions that had a series of concrete patches and LOTS less runoff!

[dereklola]

Hey Chris, Mike and others - wish you guys would stop talking like this - you're making me nervous - then of course I don't have ground effects (and if I did it probably wouldn't make any difference!).

[Rick Ross]

Wow, what kind of tires were these guys using back in the day? I have been told that the pro-spec tires were not too sticky.....which would make it even more impressive if guys like John and Greg Ray were running thru T1 flat on a regular basis.

John......how about bringing that DB4 down to Atlanta sometime this year. If you make it thru T1 flat, I'll give it a shot also, and then Chris says that he will go for it. The next thing you know everyone will be doing it!

[Chris Forrer]

Wow, what kind of tires were these guys using back in the day? I have been told that the pro-spec tires were not too sticky.....which would make it even more impressive if guys like John and Greg Ray were running thru T1 flat on a regular basis.

John......how about bringing that DB4 down to Atlanta sometime this year. If you make it thru T1 flat, I'll give it a shot also, and then Chris says that he will go for it. The next thing you know everyone will be doing it!

Rick, I know you run the sticky Hosiers and certainly have the ability. It would sooth my aging abilities to know you could do it and then be able to follow your tread marks. What a hoot! I'd be able to live the rest of my days in peace knowing I'd done T1 flat.

Derek, It's been a long while since you've been to RA. Come on down and enjoy some really nice weather. I'm fairly sure that certain individuals wouldn't attempt to cart you off to questionable eating establishments (again).

[John Thompson]

We were definatly running the spec Goodyear's. Even when we won the Runoffs in '88 we stuck with the same tire.

I would love to bring the DB4 down, but it seems like most clothe's that they tend to shrink over the years and just don't fit as good as they used to. I was hoping to bring the .014 down, but our schedule unfortunatly did not work out agin this year.

John

[Rick Ross]

For those of you who raced at Road Atlanta back in the day.......are the T1 entry speeds higher or lower now that the infamous "dip" is gone? I have only raced on the track in its current configuration.

[jrod237]

My dad Bob Rodamer and his team mate George Batchlor had 2 RT-5s. They both could really hustle it around RA. I have one of the RT-5's in my Garage. I remember Craig Hogan being very fast in a RT-4.