Pump Gas

[RussMcB]

1. Is it safe to assume pretty much all pump gas fits the FB rules?

2. Any opinions regarding good or bad gas to use?

From the GCR:
Class: All Prepared, FB, SS, SM, T, IT, SRF, Olds SR running as CSR
Type: Gasoline w/ no added oil
DC Max: 15
Reagent A: N/A

[martyb]

1. Is it safe to assume pretty much all pump gas fits the FB rules?

2. Any opinions regarding good or bad gas to use?

From the GCR:
Class: All Prepared, FB, SS, SM, T, IT, SRF, Olds SR running as CSR
Type: Gasoline w/ no added oil
DC Max: 15
Reagent A: N/A

I guess it depends on your definition of pump gas. If you mean a street unleaded, absolutely not! No unleaded is legal per the SCCA defnition.

If you mean a racing gas, maybe. But don't let it sit around too long, or take it to a different track, because it might not pass a test there!

If I was worried about it, I would simply buy new gas at the track when I arrive, and use any leftover gas when I leave in the lawn mower. You just need to change plugs more often!

Marty

BTW, I asked Geoge Dean whether we would be better off running a lower octane racing gas; he said that a 100 octane gas might make 1 or 2 more horsepower, but it would run hotter as well. He recommends 110 octane for his engines.

[RussMcB]

I guess it depends on your definition of pump gas. If you mean a street unleaded, absolutely not! No unleaded is legal per the SCCA defnition.

No kidding. Actually, yes, I was thinking I would be able to go to any gas station and buy gas to run in the FB race car. Does the GCR say no unleaded gas? (*) Or is that what the DC Max indicates?

Dang. I thought in FB I'd be able to move away from the ridiculous cost of racing gas. I wonder why SCCA doesn't want us to use commonly available gasoline?

* I did a search. The GCR has no reference to unleaded gas.

[Dave Gomberg]

I guess it depends on your definition of pump gas. If you mean a street unleaded, absolutely not! No unleaded is legal per the SCCA defnition.

Not true, Marty. Typical unleaded street gas will pass the "DC max 15" test (although I suppose some additive packages might do something to bust the test). That first line in the GCR table is for unleaded fuel. It is only allowed in the specified classes (of which FB is one). If you are really concerned about this, buy a small amount of the fuel and get it tested at the track.

... But don't let it sit around too long, or take it to a different track, because it might not pass a test there!

That is probably good advice. I know that if I don't put Stabil in my unleaded generator gas, I'm asking for trouble.

BTW, I asked Geoge Dean whether we would be better off running a lower octane racing gas; he said that a 100 octane gas might make 1 or 2 more horsepower, but it would run hotter as well. He recommends 110 octane for his engines.

The FB engines are basically street engines. They are intended to run on pump gas, unlike George's race engines. Because they are running at peak rpm a lot more than a (typical) street bike, choosing a higher (93) octane might make sense.

Dave

[Eric Cruz]

The fuel requirements for FE as stated in the Formula car specifications for FE (pg. 170) are that "Fuel shall meet the requirements for IT per the GCR." Despite the fact that looking only at the table on page 83 would cause one to believe we should be included in the second line: "all other classes." Dave - is that something we should send a letter to the CRB to have clarified - i.e. add FE to the same line as FB? It's never been a problem before, and most of the guys I know run unleaded pump gas - from the gas station down the street.

Despite my diversion from the thread, I guess my point to Russ is that I have run unleaded pump gas, most of it containing ethanol, and have not had an issue with fuel testing, and I'm not aware of any of the other FE guys that run pump gas having a problem. Of course I don't think there's any guarantee of any gas, even race gas from the track, passing a particular test. And pump gas can be very inconsistent in its formulation. I went back to AVGAS because it smells better, produces a nice cocoa color in the exhaust pipe, and it's pretty much the same stuff every time.

Best regards,
Eric

[Dave Gomberg]

The fuel requirements for FE as stated in the Formula car specifications for FE (pg. 170) are that "Fuel shall meet the requirements for IT per the GCR." Despite the fact that looking only at the table on page 83 would cause one to believe we should be included in the second line: "all other classes." Dave - is that something we should send a letter to the CRB to have clarified - i.e. add FE to the same line as FB? It's never been a problem before, and most of the guys I know run unleaded pump gas - from the gas station down the street.

Best regards,
Eric

Good point, Eric. Don't write. I'll get it in the mill from the advisory committee end. It should be a no-brainer. Look for it in the 2008 GCR.

Dave

[RussMcB]

Thanks, guys. Good info.

I REALLY like the idea of being able to buy my race gas at one of the zillion gas stations I drive by every day.

I agree that you cannot be completely confident about the quality or SCCA legality of ANY gas you use. Some are probably much better than others, but if you really want to be legal you have to have your gas tested, use it that weekend only, and make sure there is no break in the chain of evidence (i.e., you use only the gas that was tested with no mixing with anything else, don't let it sit in the sun, etc.).

I'd like to use AVGAS, but don't think there is any easy and legal way for me to get it.

Since SCCA introduced the fuel rules a few years ago, I have only been asked once to give one sample. That was during that first year. I have not been asked since (dozens of races). The fuel I use doesn't seem very important to SCCA, at least at the regional level races I've attended. It is very tempting to use whatever is easily obtainable and inexpensive and just say screw it - if I fail, I fail - a victim of a well intentioned but badly implemented rule. I would not be happy about being penalized, but at least I'd be innocent in my own mind because I wasn't trying to cheat to have an advantage and possibly expose competitors and workers to dangerous fuels. Maybe at the ARRC or some important race I'd be willing to take the extra steps to ensure legal fuel (but probably not).

[formulasuper]

Also, it would be nice if I was allowed to run standard unleaded pump gas in my stock Hayabusa powered FS car. Everything else is pretty much unlimited in this class.

[carnut169]

I do run regular unleaded about 1/2 the time. Sometimes, its just easier to get fuel at the track and not have to cart around 10-15g of fuel in the trailer. When I do get fuel at the track I always get the unleaded version... (98 octane?)

[sidney]

We have always used Av Gas. The quality control and consistancy is much greater. Seems they don't want planes falling from the sky for some reason. You can usually find it in any city where there is a municipal airport.

http://www.airnav.com/fuel/greatdeals/long?type=1

[RussMcB]

We have always used Av Gas. The quality control and consistancy is much greater. Seems they don't want planes falling from the sky for some reason. You can usually find it in any city where there is a municipal airport.

http://www.airnav.com/fuel/greatdeals/long?type=1

I thought there was a requirement that you had to prove it was for an airplane. Something about requiring a tail number?

[Jeff Read]

Russ, Most pumps at airports require you to enter a tail #. All you have to do is enter the tail # from the nearest plane

[10/TENTHS]

For what its worth, several of the engine builders we use recommend leaded fuel since these little engines run at a much higher consistent rpm than a street bike. The lead helps lubricate and cushion the expensive titanium valves that are in most of todays performance motorcycle engines. Valve replacement is the largest parts cost of a rebuild on a stock engine.

Bill Vogeley
Stohr Cars North America

[rickjohnson356]

I get my AVGAS from McCollum. Had to show them a picture of the vehicle at first to convince them I was not using it in a street vehicle, but now I just use the 'tail number' I have established with them. The tail number is related to my car.

They pump it for me into my 5-gal fuel jugs.

Poma knows of a self-serve avgas location, but apparently it is further out.

I still have the empty 55 gal VP drum that I got from you. I can get it filled (maybe) if you need that much.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
re: Sean's post below. I usually get 15 gal/weekend, includes test day. so 3 guys can split a drum filled with 45 gal + 5 gal for buffer. Don't know what the fuel use for MC engine is, though. Should be more fuel efficient than a pinto motor for sure.

[carnut169]

Might be cool to get 55g in the spring...
I've been run off from a couple different airports so I quit trying.

[Eric Cruz]

Didn't mean to start the AVGAS thing again. I think it just depends on the airport. Nice little Mrs. Waltrip that owns the Williamsburg airport (General Aviation Facility) doesn't require anything more than money - and if it's cash, you get about a 10 cent discount. I did give them a picture of my car a year or so ago, just because they wanted one to hang on the wall....

Best regards,
Eric

[Richard Dziak]

FYI:

This past weekend at Phoenix International Raceway, I used pump gas for the new Phoenix F1000. Although it was prepared by George Dean, nothing was modified on internal parts to make it a real racing engine. I ran the engine this past weekend within the rev limits set by George Dean directly and tried to shift about 11,500 rpms maximum. According to the dyno sheet, there is no need to push the engine higher as nothing is gained higher in HP at higher revs. GCR rules stated that for the F1000.....gasoline is allowed. I am not sure how my 91 Octane fuel would have tested out at any tech impound. The car ran great on standard 91 unleaded fuel, and I personally could not tell any difference or under performance in the car. For myself, out for fun and enjoying the sport, the costs of pump gas is just fine for me. Until I am proven wrong, or a higher octane will improve my track times, this gas will be fine for me. I consider my 2006 Suzuki stock engine, no different than a stock motorcycle that would fill up at a regular fuel pump. My Suzuki just has 4 wheels, not two.

[Steven McWilliams]

Would the Pump gas have the same result in my Continental, or does the Pinto engine need the higher octane gasoline?

[formulasuper]

Would the Pump gas have the same result in my Continental, or does the Pinto engine need the higher octane gasoline?

Depends on how much you have increased the compression ratio.

By the way, it works great in my Ralt/stock Hayabusa.

[EYERACE]

Your 91 octane would have failed..........but use it anyway

[carnut169]

FYI:

This past weekend at Phoenix International Raceway, I used pump gas for the new Phoenix F1000. Although it was prepared by George Dean, nothing was modified on internal parts to make it a real racing engine. I ran the engine this past weekend within the rev limits set by George Dean directly and tried to shift about 11,500 rpms maximum. According to the dyno sheet, there is no need to push the engine higher as nothing is gained higher in HP at higher revs. GCR rules stated that for the F1000.....gasoline is allowed. I am not sure how my 91 Octane fuel would have tested out at any tech impound. The car ran great on standard 91 unleaded fuel, and I personally could not tell any difference or under performance in the car. For myself, out for fun and enjoying the sport, the costs of pump gas is just fine for me. Until I am proven wrong, or a higher octane will improve my track times, this gas will be fine for me. I consider my 2006 Suzuki stock engine, no different than a stock motorcycle that would fill up at a regular fuel pump. My Suzuki just has 4 wheels, not two.

Well...
You can't really say that nothing is gained Richard. You've got to consider RPM drop-off when you shift. If you shift at a lower rpm, you will be in a lower rpm in the next gear and probably are losing power/ time by short shifting. You might not care, and I try to do the same thing on a test day to preserve the engine (try, but I often find myself bouncing off the rev-limiter at what, 12,700?).

The other factor worth considering is that street bikes have a lot less strain on the motors... less weight, less grip, not always floored and in high rpms.

I will run pump gas too but we have 93 here in Ga. 91 is our mid-grade and I really feel best running the 98 most tracks have.

[martyb]

As I said in posting #2 of this thread, George told us we should run 110 octane race gas in our GDRE F1000-spec GSXR; personally, I'll take his word for it!

Marty

[Stan Clayton]

I don't know if this applies to motorcycle engines, but the owner's manual for my turbo Talon states that it is safe to burn any gasoline, but that the ECU will pull timing and or boost out of the engine if one attempts full power with less than 93 octane gas. The message being that although the engine may run fine on 85-octane cat pee, to make full power it may need higher octane fuel.

[RussMcB]

85-octane cat pee

How much does that cost and what's the DC Max?