Too Many Formula Car Classes

[Amon]

It's around $1200.00 to rebuild a 1600 CC VW motor, and $3500 will buy you
a new one. Thanks!

Mark

[Bob Devol]

Okay, we can go back forth over costs and classes forever. My point is that Spec Racer is cost effective for what it is and more than 770 active SRF drivers are very happy with what they're racing. (By the way, I believe my felllow number "73" Todd Butler out west runs both a Spec Racer and a Club Ford. It'll be interesting to see if his experience is the same as mine.)

That said, I want all the formula classes to thrive, too. There are way too many door slammers out there these days.

[Steve Demeter]

We already have a system that works pretty well.

1. Get a regional class allowed by the club.
2. get sufficient participation in that class to be given national status.
3. Maintain sufficient participation to remain a national class.
4. if you do not do #3, you will become a regional only class.
5. If no one is interested in running the calss, it will fade away on it's own, like A and B sports racer. They took quite a while to die off even after they were combined, but the racers voted by not participating.

The mix of classes (real race cars vs all the rest) will take it's course based on how the drivers vote with their wallets.

[Thomas Copeland]

Oh GOOOOOOOOOOOOODDDDD! You all make me weep sometimes. I've been watching this thread and waiting half a month for some one to state the obvious. It isn't that there are too many formula car (i.e. open wheel) classes, it's that there are too damn many closed wheel (sedan and sports car) classes.

Doubt me?

Open wheel classes (10):

FA
FM
FC
FS
FE
FF
CF
FV
F5
FB

Closed wheel classes (29):


ITE
ITX
ITR
RX7
T1
T2
T3
SSB
SSC
GT1
GT2
GT3
GTA
EP
SP
AS
ITS
ITA
ITB
PB
GP
HP
SMT
SSM
S2
CSR
DSR
ASR

They got us outnumbered 3 to 1!

We need to create at least 19 new formula car classes just to even up our numbers!

What's wrong wez ya guys?

[SStadel]

Well I count 8. Of those 8, 6 are in the top 12 in participation. Only the new FB is not in the hallowed top 24. I'd argue that the 22 other classes are a larger problem than the 8 formula classes. Another way to look at it is, 16 of the bottom 18 classes are other than formula cars.

Gee Tom, I think I said this 11 days ago. I was only talking National classes, not Regional.

[Thomas Copeland]

I like to count ALL the opposition!

But it was a tongue-in-cheek post not to be taken too seriously. What we really need is a formula car class like FC that can compete on a level economically with Spec Miata.

Something like a $15,000 formula car class with a car that's bigger than a breadbox (FV, F500) and as fast as a FC.

Then we need about 19 classes of that kind of car.

[greg pizzo]

FOR SURE there are way to many sedan classes .... geezzz does EVERYONE that shows up have to get a checkered flag to take home ??? and WHY NOT have like MAYBE 10 sedan classes ....... 5 that are race cars and 5 that are street cars... or maybe NO street cars .... leave those to there CLUBS like AUDI club BMW club Shelby CLUB ..............ETC ...........or NASA .........

5 sedan classes for RACE cars is plenty to accomodate the different speed potentials ..... just make Rules and adjust them as needed ......in 2-3 years cars would be changed to fit on to one of GT1-5 then a T1-5 for all the NON race cars ...... DONE .........

AND maybe the Formula cars and sports racers could be 7-8 classes ............. having 18 MAX races going on in one weekend MIGHT approach something meaning full and interesting enough to SELL ....think of it .......... 9 groups MAX with no MORE THAN 2 winners in a race ............ONE MIGHT be able to follow that and pecieve waht was going on WITHOUT a PHd in SCCA class designations .......??? maybe ??


either THAT or hand every one a checkerd flag with a paid entry ....... ?????

[problemchild]

Regarding FST .... The reality of it is much like all the new classes that are created ..... the traditional classes refused to evolve to attract people to them. FST is what FV should have evolved into. But FV drivers, like FF, FC, FA drivers, want to protect their investments and would rather see their class fade away than make big changes to keep it vital. That is not a criticism but the reality of the situation.

The people that started the FST class are very similiar to the FC people that made changes to bring Zetec into that class. It was a different solution to very similiar situation. I now race an entire season of FST, winning races and championships, for the same money that a competitive National FV driver spends on his tire bill. It is a formula class for people with race budgets of several $K per year.

I supported FV, FF. and F2000 over a 25 year period in Canada and the USA. I can no longer support those classes. The value (return for cost) is just not there. For me, it is FST or nothing. For others, it may me FE or nothing, FM or nothing, F1000 or nothing, etc.

My comments are not ment to criticize anyone or any class. This is my world as it applies to SCCA racing. I am sure there are others with similiar situations.

Cheers!

[Raceworks]

[quote=S Lathrop;148203]
FM and FE appear to have stalled. I don't think that either class is growing significantly. Here we have 2 classes that are at the same performance level and rules concept. One dates from the '70s and the other is more current. I would say that market is saturated. Again the cost of entry is high because the value of the cars is pegged by the rules not changing. This is good if you own a car but bad if you want a car. You can get an older model FC, in equal condition for way less the a FM/FE. And you can get on with the learning process that is really a part of racing. No instant gratification.[quote]

Um, the only thing I disagree with here is that performance is not "similar" between FM & FE. Unless you call 2 seconds faster on average to be "similar." FE has about the same power-to-weight ratio as FM, with vastly superior aerodynamics, suspension & brakes. The only reason the performance was similar was the fact that one car was brand new and the other was raced for 17 years.

[Stan Clayton]

Again the cost of entry is high because the value of the cars is pegged by the rules not changing.

IMO, the sales of new FEs stalled because their price is tied to the Dollar-Pound exchange rate. When they cost $30k they sold like hot cakes. At $50k, not so much.

Um, the only thing I disagree with here is that performance is not "similar" between FM & FE. Unless you call 2 seconds faster on average to be "similar." FE has about the same power-to-weight ratio as FM, with vastly superior aerodynamics, suspension & brakes. The only reason the performance was similar was the fact that one car was brand new and the other was raced for 17 years.

The recent surge in FE performance was the instant result of putting a decent set of dampers on the cars. Up to that point all those other apparent advantages didn't amount to a hill of beans.

Stan

[iamuwere]

Agreed. I want an FE, but not $50k worth of want. That price buys a new FB, for what ever that is worth.

[formulasuper]

Agreed. I want an FE, but not $50k worth of want. That price buys a new FB, for what ever that is worth.

It's worth 2.691 seconds at Road Atlanta, according to the track records.

[Bill Steele]

Well, actually, I think they should elminate all classes except Formula Ford. You see if they did that everything would be fine. We wouldn't have all this class warfare stuff, everyone would be driving better (FF drivers are better drivers don't you know).

OK, I am willing to compromise to prove I am a reasonable person, we will also allow Club Ford. Ah, compromise is good for the soul, I feel better already. Also, we really do need a low cost alternative to suck unsuspecting neophytes into racing and get them hooked on the thrill, but that's it! No other classes, ok?

Now the only problem I see with my idea is we might lose a few competitors, but who cares? I mean, the guys that run other classes like FE, FM, FA, FV, FS, well you get the idea, they don't know the true value of a race car because if they did, they would be Ford drivers!

So there you have it, the perfact solution to less than robust Ford turn out, make everyone drive Fords!

OK, next problem?

[R. Pare]

IMO, the sales of new FEs stalled because their price is tied to the Dollar-Pound exchange rate. When they cost $30k they sold like hot cakes. At $50k, not so much. Stan

Stan:

You missed his point, which had zero to do with the price of new cars. Rather, he was pointing out that, if you look at the sales prices of new cars vs used cars in the majority of spec classes, and then compared that to open classes where the new car prices are nearly the same, the used spec cars usually go for a much higher price. Those extra $$$ can be, and are, a major factor in the "cost of entry" that a huge portion of the potential racing population cannot get around if they go the spec car route.

In FC and FF, for example, you can get a used car for a lot less that half the price of a new one, and for a quarter if you are willing, and have the skills, to add in sweat equity by building most of the replacement parts yourself. To those unafraid of that sort of challenge, this may be the only way they can get a start.


Secondly, the exchange rate actually has only a medium-sized role to play in why the FE is $20K more now. The exchange rate was at it's lowest in recent years in the middle of 2003, when it was about 1.55. As of June this year, it hit 2.06 briefly. That is an increase of about 33% during the last 4 years.

If indeed the sales price over here was directly tied to ONLY the exchange rate, the price would have climbed only about $9000 to $39000, assuming a landed cost of $28000, paid in British Pounds.

No, the climb from the original price has been 66%, double the exchange rate increase. Possibly some of that extra is when the margin seen is calculated as a percentage of cost, but the majority is because of increased production costs, and/or the unwillingness of the manufacturer to continue to sell at a break-even point after the market has been primed via the loss-leader route.

[smcqueen]

A couple of things. A substantial portion of the price increase is due to the numerous upgrades necessary to make the car work or work better;
- trans parts upgrades
- flywheel/clutch
- steering
- alternator
- fuel injection
- dampers
- drive axles
- probably some things i don' know about

Second,

A very imporatant factor in buying an FE which should not be overlooked. I bought an FE knowing that I would have a nationally competitive engine, a nationally competitive chassis, with the only difference between cars being the individuals ability to set up the car, and the ability to drive the car. I don't think I could have done the same for the same money with a new or used FC.


scott

[Larry]

Ah, yes, the "numerous upgrades necessary." This is a very true statement, and a very telling statement! As introduced, the car was never ready for the market. SCCA sold a car that wasn't developed sufficiently. They used the early customers (who did buy at a good price) to be their test-mules and find the problems (such as gearbox, manifold, etc.).

Larry Oliver
International Racing Products

[Matthew Inge]

Well firstly I agree with scott and secondly...the maintenance on the FE is pretty much nothing compared to the other classes. Everything on the car is solid and the price boost was due to making parts stronger and more reliable. I think Enterprises must be doing something right as well, after all they "only" have sold 900 SRF's.

Matthew Inge

By the way...what new class had the most participation and made it in to the top 15 its first year? Hopefully people will stop hating on the FE's because they know we are getting quicker at the track. This shouldn't even be a topic of discussion.

[Eric Cruz]

Ah, yes, the "numerous upgrades necessary." This is a very true statement, and a very telling statement! As introduced, the car was never ready for the market. SCCA sold a car that wasn't developed sufficiently. They used the early customers (who did buy at a good price) to be their test-mules and find the problems (such as gearbox, manifold, etc.).

Larry Oliver
International Racing Products

Yes, Larry, I too am accustomed to new race cars being introduced fully-developed and perfectly reliable right from the manufacturer. As an "early customer" I had very few problems with the car, and felt that the support I received from Enterprises was outstanding.

Best regards,
Eric

[S Lathrop]

I think that there is no reason to spend time arguing spec vs development cars. Each has its place and each has as much right to track time as the other.

I happen to have grown up with development cars and much of my pleasure from racing is struggling with problems that I can make progress on solutions. I enjoy the challange of doing setups and experimenting with different ideas. It has also been a large part of my success in keeping a few cars at the front of the grids for decades. Or as my drivers age we can adapt our setups to remain competitive. Drivers are not the only competitors at a race track.

But development cars have a very high learning curve and require a lot of effort. To me that is racing. Spec cars reduce the required knowledge base to run competitively and there is a better preservation of your initial investment. But I remember a few years back when FMs, used, were bringing upwards of $40.000. Then over night the price drops in half. I think I saw that one traded for $17,000. In FF and FC there are cars that are still national championship competitive that I built in 1994. Then there are other cars I built at the same time that have not been maintained and are worth what any other 1994 chassis would be.

The cost to race a car with FC/FE/FM performance is way cheeper with a used FC. To win at the top level not true. But if you are skilled and resourcesful cost still favors FC, called sweat equity.

But if you want to race and minimize you work between races then choose the spec car that you like the best.

A lot of my customers would get upset when I would introduce an update because they felt that devalued their cars. I felt it extended the cars competitive life and saved the customer money by not forcing him to buy a new car every few years. We now have spec cars for those who want them.

The real problem is when we confuse the two types of racing with rules and official rullings. Spec car people don't tolerate development car types and visa versa.

One of the problems I see is that low level spec cars do not do a good job of preparing drivers to race at higher levels where car setup becomes ever more important. It is much easier to learn the nuances of setup changes at the FF/FC level than it is when you get to the big time, pro Atlantic or IPS. But very few drivers will ever advance that high.

Again, each class has its pros and cons. SCCA club racing is better off with both. It is best to have each and every one try to get along when they are on the track. The days of one class race groups in purpose built race cars are gone, at least for now.

[D.T. Benner]

But you should have said in your last sentence "at least in Formula Cars". as Spec Racer Fords have there own group.

[S Lathrop]

But you should have said in your last sentence "at least in Formula Cars". as Spec Racer Fords have there own group.

Funny what $2,000,000 plus of SCCA membership money can do for a class.

[MarkM]

If the money SRF generates for the club were to be taken elsewhere, we would be in financial straits.

[Stan Clayton]

Funny what $2,000,000 plus of SCCA membership money can do for a class.

I know what you're saying, Steve, but I think that the 70,000 SRF entry fees since 1985 (at what, $200 apiece?) have paid back that investment.

[Dave Gomberg]

But you should have said in your last sentence "at least in Formula Cars". as Spec Racer Fords have there own group.

Well, in many places, but not all.

Dave

[Steve Demeter]

Stan,
I take strong issue with your statement.

The majority of an entry fee goes to track rental, insurance, mailing costs, other track fees and sanctions.

Very little to none of the numbers you quoted goes into profit for the National Club.

]To say that Sport Renault, Spec Racer, Spec Racer Ford has more than paid back it's investment by the club in the form of entry fees is ludicrous.

Steve Demeter

[Amon]

Stan:

You're assuming that the 70k entries since 85' is a zero sum game. Actually, many but not
all of those drivers would have found other classes to participate in and pay entry fee's.

Thanks!

Mark

[Stan Clayton]

Stan,
I take strong issue with your statement.

The majority of an entry fee goes to track rental, insurance, mailing costs, other track fees and sanctions.

Very little to none of the numbers you quoted goes into profit for the National Club.

This is exactly my point, Steve. Those entry fees DO go into track rental, insurance, sanction fees, etc., helping to lower everyone else's cost of racing, and in many cases helping to keep Regions' club racing programs afloat. I'd call that a return on investment.

To say that Sport Renault, Spec Racer, Spec Racer Ford has more than paid back it's investment by the club in the form of entry fees is ludicrous.

Ludicrous? I hardly think so. Enterprises remains current on paying down its long term debt to SCCA (retiring $50,000+ again last year) and also remains profitable, posting $36,000 in profit last year.

In summary, the SRF family of cars have:

Contributed 3000+ entries per year to Regional and National racing for the past 25 years.
Loans to Enterprises are CURRENT on being repaid (due primarily to SRF).
Enterprises continues to make a profit for the Club (due primarily to SRF).

We could argue over the details, but to dismiss my statement as "ludicrous" is just that.

Mark, if anyone is treating the money as zero-sum, it is Steve Lathrop. For years Steve has harped on about how SCCA dumped $2-million into Enterprises, as if that money vanished in a puff of smoke. Nothing could be further from the truth.

Stan

[R. Pare]

..... as if that money vanished in a puff of smoke. Nothing could be further from the truth.

Stan

Then tell me Stan, where exactly IS the money that Enterprises lost? Has it magicly reappeared somehow?

No, it hasn't. Instead, the money loaned to Enterprises to allow it to continue operating - a position it put itself in by operating at a loss - has been paid back, but the original monies lost is still gone, and gone forever.

[Stan Clayton]

Richard, you ask "where exactly IS that money?", to which I answer "856".

That being the number of SRFs delivered as of the Convention earlier this year.

Questions?

[R. Pare]

Don't ya just love non-answer answers?

Nice try at a dodge, Stan, but no one with any brains is buying that as being an answer that has any meaning reletive to the question.

While it is very true that Enterprises has sold a large number of cars, and in doing so has been able to pay back the loan out of those profits generated from sales that were post-loss, that fact is that you cannot deny is that the original monies lost are gone, not to be re-couped.

However, none of this has a damned thing to do with the original thread subject, which was supposedly about there being too many classes.

[Larry]

Stan, I doubt that we will change your mind, as it seems to have been firmly lodged despite the facts. For MANY years, SCCA has pumped money into Enterprises, going all the way back to the Shelby Can-Am. SCCA guaranteed the sale of a minimum number of units. When the requisite number of buyers failed to materialize, SCCA had to pay a substantial sum in compensation.

During the salad-days of SRF, Enterprises still lost money--in spite of the SCCA allowing the SR (Renault then) to be constructed in violation of the GCR rules on roll hoop construction. Since then, SCCA has loaned Enterprises money at interest rates BELOW those that the club was paying at the same time.

When SRF sales slowed, it was clear that Enterprises would not remain viable as it was. Thus the entry of the FSCCA car.

The big complaint on Enterprises is that these are hardly arm's-lengths transactions. (NOTE: see Fran AM vs. SCCA lawsuit if you doubt this statement.) I would love to be able to sell parts for the FSCCA, and I could do it below the cost of the current suppliers, but I am prevented from offering this service--even though the parts would be identical. I don't see how this is serving the membership when competition is stymied.

Larry Oliver
International Racing Products

[Stan Clayton]

Hey guys, sorry I had to skip out on you yesterday, but I was busy all afternoon and then we had company for the evening.

But like a bad penny, I'm BACK...!

Joking aside, in my initial reply to Steve I acknowledge that I understand his point (because I share his feeling that the Club should never have started up Enterprises). That said, I also tip my hat to the SRF community for their strong and continuing support of the Club over the intervening decades. SRF has contributed 10's of thousands of entries over the years and stands head and shoulders above any other class in the history of SCCA in that respect. Continuing to piss and moan about the investment SCCA made in SRF more the 25 years later is just pointless IMO, and does a disservice to the members of that class.

So give up with the Enterprises-hating already, and let's work towards a better future.

See ya at the Runoffs!

Stan

[DaveB]

As Mr. Lathrop stated that $2 mil plus was written of as bad uncollectible debt on the clubs taxes (see financials in Sportscar) . This is still a big pill to swallow for many SCCA members (newbies excluded). Enterprises is just paying off their resent operating loans.

[MarkM]

I am a newbie, so maybe I don'tr get it. However, it seems that the pill has already been swallowed and long time members can choose to either continue to be nauseated or move forward with the future of the club.

My personal opinion is that the club would currently be in financial trouble if not for the past history of SRF participants. I have never driven an SRF and have no plans to.

What brought me to SCCA? The F/SCCA, now FE. Why? Spec formula car that looks good.

Too many formula classes? Probably. I think there should be three or four and let's roll. Just make sure at least one of them is a winged "spec" class similar to FE.

[RussMcB]

Mark, I couldn't help but smile a little while reading your last sentence. I know you didn't say this, but what I was thinking was, "I think there should be three or four classes. Just make sure at least one of them is mine.". :-)

[MarkM]

Funny how that works. To be honest, I am so hooked now, I would pick a class and race.

[RussMcB]

Funny how that works. To be honest, I am so hooked now, I would pick a class and race.

I agree completely. I've never gotten into any type of race car and not enjoyed it. And regarding SCCA: I complain about plenty of little things, but generally think it has high quality, well run events.

[Steven McWilliams]

After I posted in the thread, Iwas watching it if I could contribute to it.
Frankly, I could not, this thread has been over for a long time,and has gone off track. From what I see, not to be complaining tho0ugh, is just lots of arguing.
Now I'll say this: I think there is a good amount of Formula Car classes, and everyone has their own thing, depending on budget,and interest. SCCA has done a great job making classes affordable, but still fast ie: FV,FST. THe problem is the small budget closed wheel cars ie: SM SSM, ITA,B, C. They are taking over the club, and SCCA, is following the $ I don't blame them. After I run at Summit Point,and get my license, I'm going to try FRCCA. All Open wheel car club. I will run a couple SCCA events to keep my license ,and to keep in touch though, but I think FRCCA has the best option for me.

[steve kramer]

. SCCA has done a great job making classes affordable, but still fast ie: FV,FST. THe problem is the small budget closed wheel cars ie: SM SSM, ITA,B, C. They are taking over the club, and SCCA, is following the $

I am having a hard time understanding your logic. On one hand you are saying that SCCA has made plently of open wheel classes available including low cost FV, FST. But on the other you are lamenting all the SM, etc. cars?
When (virtually) any SCCA event takes place, one can enter any class, whether open or closed wheel. (all open wheel classes have national status, the only significant group left out of nationals is the IT crowd) So if the potential drivers all choose closed wheel classes, how is SCCA following the $? Seems like the public has voted - and voted for closed wheel if that is where the numbers are increasing.

[samiam520]

THe problem is the small budget closed wheel cars ie: SM SSM, ITA,B, C. They are taking over the club, and SCCA,

I would argue that most of the classes that you mention are not cheaper than FV or FST or even CF. I have a buddy that just sold his FV for $6,500.00 and bought a SM for $13,000.00 I could buy 2 FV's or one really nice CF or FST for the same price. Additionally, I believe any of them would be as cheap or cheaper to operate then the SM. This is not gong to be very popular, however, I think a lot of people are afraid of open wheel cars. I think that is the reason for the discrepancy.