Too Many Formula Car Classes

[Steven McWilliams]

that SCCA has made too many closed wheel car classes, and they're following the $$. But they also made a good amount of Open wheel car classes

[John Nesbitt]

that SCCA has made too many closed wheel car classes, and they're following the $$. But they also made a good amount of Open wheel car classes

Considering that your benchmark is Summit Point, it's hard to argue that SCCA has too many closed wheel classes. The production-based classes aren't having any difficulty in filling their MARRS run groups; the non-production classes are.

[Steven McWilliams]

Last week I didn't have much time to watch other races. I only saw production, and I helped out in T&S during SRX7 & IT7 but there seemed to be plenty of other closed wheel cars. It was my first race in a while,and I broke a CV joint on the first lap of the first Qualifying. I was the teal and black Reynard.
I raced ten years ago,and there was large amount of cars in every group, including the big Formula cars like ours (last weekend was a great amount too). I just don't understand why they made SM,and SSM, and SRX7,and IT7. Some drivers race in both SM,and SSM,and it seems unfair to other people that only run one group. Also, SRX7,and IT7 looked pretty simuluar when I was watching them.

Maybe I haven't observed enough for my opinion to count . It just seems that SCCA is overdoing it with 29 closed wheel classes . there's an open wheel class for everyone with only 10 open wheel classes, Idon't see why there is the need for 29 closed wheel classes.

[John Nesbitt]

Some drivers race in both SM,and SSM,and it seems unfair to other people that only run one group. Also, SRX7,and IT7 looked pretty simuluar when I was watching them.

People who double-dip in SM and SSM pay two entry fees. They deserve two entries. Some people run in multiple non-production classes.

Club Ford and Formula Ford look pretty similar to non-participants. Heck, FC, FM, and FE look pretty similar.

It just seems that SCCA is overdoing it with 29 closed wheel classes . there's an open wheel class for everyone with only 10 open wheel classes, Idon't see why there is the need for 29 closed wheel classes.

Consider your Labor Day race on Sunday.

In the production classes, 239 cars took the green flag in 32 ( ) available classes, for an average of 7.5 per available class.

In the non-production classes (including SRF, xSR), 69 cars took the green flag in 15 available classes, for an average of 4.6 per available class.

If you look at open wheel classes only, the numbers fall to 42 starters in 11 available classes, for an average of 3.8 per available class.

The problem is not the proliferation of production classes, but rather the fall in non-production participation (at least at Summit Point), combined with the proliferation of open wheel classes.

[Dave Gomberg]

A comment on John Nesbitt's observations: generalizations based on numbers from one track or even one division are not necessarily valid across the country. In my wanderings around the southwest and west earlier this year, I was reminded that not only is all politics local, but so is class participation. For reasons that are not always clear, certain classes are more popular in some places than others. Also, there is an amazing proliferation of local regional-only classes; sometimes there are analogs in distant places, sometimes not. Although I expect that on average entries across the country may be skewed along the lines John presents, averages can't be trusted to give a good picture of many local situations.

Although the National participations numbers (http://www.scca.com/documents/Club_E...ion_MASTER.pdf) don't take into account IT and local regional-only classes), you can see how different classes are unevenly represented. For example look at the Rocky Mountain and Northern Pacific divisions each of which put on 6 National races this year - they are in adjacent columns, so the comparison is easy. Even among our spec classes, there is tremendous variation across the country.

Dave

[Steven McWilliams]

Ok, even though our group had 3.8 cars per group, we had a respectable 30 sum cars on SAT/SUN,and around 20 sum on Saturday. That is just about as much as the other groups.
I think SCCA did a good job with the Formula and Sports racer classes. I still don't understand why there is the need for almost three times as much tin-top classes are needed.

That's all I have to say for this post. Nice talking with everybody.
Hopefully I'll see you at MARRS 10


Steve

[John Nesbitt]

Ok, even though our group had 3.8 cars per group, we had a respectable 30 sum cars on SAT/SUN,and around 20 sum on Saturday. That is just about as much as the other groups.

Well, no.

Again, on Sunday, which featured the best turn-out of open wheel cars, the two race groups which were predominantly open wheel averaged 22 starters (including SR's). The production race groups averaged 34 starters - over 50% more.

I think SCCA did a good job with the Formula and Sports racer classes. I still don't understand why there is the need for almost three times as much tin-top classes are needed.

The short answer is that, at least in the MARRS series, the tin-tops are putting up the numbers to justify their classes and groups.

[LolaT440]

I think the issue between the FRCCA and SCCA is one of costs and track time.

If you deleted all the closed wheel cars and spec racers, how many cars would be at an SCCA race? 20?

So this is with the National SCCA. So a little regional club like FRCCA has about the same turn out.

So what is the difference. A little stricter rules to control costs. A hell of a lot more track time. Maybe less insurance. If all the SCCA guys showed up at an FRCCA, what's the difference. Insurance I think. If Rand laps me 15 times under the FRCCA checker vs the SCCA checker, I still had fun driving in my mirrors all day.

So SCCA has a lot of classes, mainly because there has not been a really cost effective solution to modernize and rollout new cars. So guys like me are running 1970's death traps. And a few people can spend 30 to 60 on a new car.

FRCCA is mostly the lower budget guys, but not exclusively, who want maximum track time. It is more of a tight nit club. FRCCA measures track time by hours, not minutes.

So not to bash SCCA anymore. SCCA has the events at Lime Rock, so I go when I can.

[Straight8]

Very interesting thread this. Just to add my bit to the kindling, it's striking that the problem is NOT confined to the SCCA. IMO, you see the same thing internationally: FF/FF2000/FBMW/FRenault/F3/GP2/World Series by Renault/IPS/ etc., etc., ad nauseum in semi-logical fashion up to F1.

Open-wheel racing has what I think is inherent tension between varying degrees of amateur participation ("Clubland" and thus the need keep costs w/in the reach of amateurs) overlapping with those having professional aspirations (generally more willing and able to bear higher costs than even the most bucks-up members of the "for the fun of it" crowd). Why the tension? As has been pointed out before in this thread, a single-seat racing car is, or can be, scary. Its very form is far enough removed from other cars, even sports cars, to be intimidating; it implies the seriousness necessary to master it. It can be nothing other than A REAL RACE CAR. It comes with a virtual warning label shouting "GO PRO OR STAY AWAY FROM ME".

Or does it? Those of us without professional aspirations are really seeking accessible versions of this most serious of racers. To use the obvious historical analogy from two-seaters: You knew you couldn't really handle that Ferrari, Jag or Cunningham you saw at Bridgehampton or Sebring; but you could get close enough to that sensation and enjoy yourself with an MG or TR.

That, IMO, is the core of Clubland/ProLadder problem and the major reason for the number of single-seat classes. For the club racer, what's the open-wheeled equivalent of a Sprite or TR4? For the would-be Indy or GP star, which of these will best prepare me to get into that Ferrari or Dallara? One can argue that everything that works for ClubRacer will work for WouldBePro, but I think that's only true at the very early stages. WouldBePro will ultimately want and need something closer to "the real thing," something that requires more cost and greater committment than ClubRacer wants or needs.