Too Many Formula Car Classes

[fubar]

Just picked up the latest Sportscar mag to read the Tom Schultz' June Sprints recap. I consider myself a relatively astute "club" racer running my first National over 30 years ago and continued active in FF except for the last 2 years. My question is what the heck are FB and FE and how did they suddenly appear as National classes? I remember FB back when Villeneuve, Rahal and Cogan were running old Ralts but no clue about the new class as none were entered in the Sprints. nor in any other National I saw covered.

I understand Coello was taken out of the lead by FM(s) (no surprise there); but congratulations to Cliff Johnson for his win in what used to be the largest FF event in the country. Sad to see the huge split of open wheel racers into so many diverse classes, and also the nearly empty turn 5 stands compared to when the Sprints used to draw huge Sunday crowds. I guess the average race fan is as confused about SCCA classes as am I.

[EYERACE]

the recently invented F1000 class is called FB suddenly...and FSCCA is now FE......doesn't make any sense to me that this has happened.

[carnut169]

You think that the stands would have been filled if FE & FB did not exist? Did they download the supps and decide at that point not to attend?

I'd suggest going back and reading the FE/ FB debates as they have been covered from every conceivable angle.

[carnut169]

and it's SCCA Enterprises... since they did the class- "FE"

F1000, performance-wise is between FA & FC- "FB"

Seems to make sence to me.

[Stan Clayton]

the recently invented F1000 class is called FB suddenly...and FSCCA is now FE......doesn't make any sense to me that this has happened.

Eye, please open your 2007 GCR to page 68. You will notice that each class is both named (e.g., Formula 1000) and assigned a 2- or 3-letter identification (e.g., FB) to be placed on each side of the car per GCR 9.3.28.

Looking at the formula class listings, you will notice that FB and (in 2008) FE are natural progressives in the identification sequence. Furthermore, FB harkens back to the early history
of SCCA. FE is both a convenient progressive as well as a conscious play on Enterprises.

Now you know...

Edit: Ah...thanks Sean. You beat me to it.

[RussMcB]

My take (100% opinion):

FE (Formula SCCA) got invented because the Club wanted a relatively new technology spec formula car. It seems to have plenty of cars, so, if you use that as a yard stick, it was a good idea.

FB (F1000) has a lot of interested because it's fast and relatively affordable. Almost as fast as FA at costs closer to FF.

FF has a pretty old engine which doesn't help it's draw. We all know we'd love driving one, but it's just not as attractive compared against other alternatives of today.

I think almost everyone was surprised when FB became a national class at it's inception. And I think they (SCCA) owed it to the FE class to grant them national status because they deserved it and it would not have been fair to force them to continue to run in FA.

[SStadel]

Well I count 8. Of those 8, 6 are in the top 12 in participation. Only the new FB is not in the hallowed top 24. I'd argue that the 22 other classes are a larger problem than the 8 formula classes. Another way to look at it is, 16 of the bottom 18 classes are other than formula cars.

[fubar]

Hey thanks all for the info. Didn't mean to rile up all formula drivers as this was originally started on FF discussion. Agreed, there are way too many classes period and I also don't know (or really care) about the differences between a T1 and AS. I'll go back and review past threads on the subject before starting a new one. Also don't know what it will take to fill those empty stands but I don't think it would be drifting. I'm running for cover!

[EYERACE]

Hark! I see yonder Formula B car..........sure doesn't sound like they used to. eye couldn't resist the brevity - forgive me.

no offense taken from your post and none intended here towards you Stan. my comment meant it simply seems unnecessary that a class named already was then renamed to another letter designation. inventing the cars themselves was not all that bad of an idea. never heard, and i hope i never do, 'em called an 'enterprise car' but to someone i guess it makes sense....calling 'em a formula scca car at least mentioned the name scca.......cool.....one less secret

[Stan Clayton]

No offense taken, Eye.

I was just clarifying that all classes have both a name and an identification code. The name of Formula SCCA has not changed, but the ID code changed this year from FA to FE when the cars were removed from Altantics.

Stan

[formulasuper]

No offense taken, Eye.

I was just clarifying that all classes have both a name and an identification code.
Stan

If that's true Stan, what is the name of the class with the ID code FS?

[Stan Clayton]

If that's true Stan, what is the name of the class with the ID code FS?

As noted on page 68, its name is "Formula S"...

FWIW, the Club sought input a few years ago to choose a name based on the "S", but never adopted any of the entries.

BTW, my favorite entry was "Formula Libre", which was submitted by numerous persons. Libre doesn't start with "S", though, and the name was not adopted. Now that the naming pattern has changed (Formula SCCA = FE), maybe that could be revisited if anyone is interested.

[D.T. Benner]

I have heard anouncers at the track call it "Formula Sport" in a call to pre-grid. I like Stan remember "Formula Libre" but with the Jack Black Movie "Nacho Libre" maybe thats not a good idea Maybe F-W as in "What the F--K is THAT?"

[formulasuper]

I have heard the announcers at the track call it Formula SCCA more than once. Now that they have their own ID code, FE, maybe that will change. I usually tell anyone that ask that it's Formula Secret! With the rules for this class being wide open it has the potential to be the fastest cars on the track, finances permitting.

[Mark H]

There are 2 many classes but you can't unring a bell.
That was a fubar to dog the FB, Sean must have been stuck in 285 traffic ...or you would have gotten it right away
Also 2 years out of racing vs the work Sean, Russ and others have put forth this last year or so, I could see it coming.

The SCCA needs folks like Sean, he has the passion and willpower to go out there and put togeather something that he thinks will be good for road racing / SCCA / formula car racing! . He is a newer member like myself, younger / in touch with what guys in their 30's-40's like in racing. Maybe they can bring the fans back?

I respect the older members as well as the newer ones, with out yall low number guys maybe there would be no SCCA? As I respect yall so do I the guy on a Novice licence. He is the future of MY racing club. Racers like Stan, Russ and Sean have taken time out of their "normal" life to do free work for my racing club!!!

Being in FC I can say I diden't like the idea of FB because it takes away from cars I will get to race aginst. But Sean was in FC before me and was ready to move up or on or I even out at one time? So as you can see the FB has energized a lot of members. Look at the F1000 portion on this site. Them guys are on FIRE with energy!!

So in the short run, YES there are two many openwheel classes, who should get axed or combined????? I like FE, I like FM...2 open wheel spec. classes? The attempt to combine them went south. Maybe FM into the FC? Somethings gotta give.

And on a final note. I like all of the SCCA racing!!! When I started I only watched the open wheel races....then the GT-1 group.....then I got to drive an ITC so I get IT now. Ya gotta watch the SM race, some of the best drivers in the club are to be found at the front of that pack, I mean with 40 like cars you don't get to the front of that pack with luck? Them boys can slap get it!
All in all I don't ever say "I don't care about the other classes" They are doing the same thing we are and they kinda look up to us (purpose built cars and such) so if we discount them we will be that stero-type wine and cheese, snob type member. Not the Brave, swash-buckeling , daredevil, good looking(at least myself), 200mph, open wheel playboy RACECAR DRIVER that we all know we are. Don't burst their bubble...be cool! Share the love.....Why can't we all get along......Oh gotta go drop off my girlfriend and see the wife before I meet the girls at the lake house by 12....in the Vette.

[D.T. Benner]

You smokin Home grown? Just kidding! We all need to tell it like we feel. That's what this site is all about.

[rickb99]

You forgot a few Mark

FA, FB, FC, FE, FF, FV, FM, F500, CFC, CFF, FS

And don't forget, the used up FM Rensis, Formula Renault and Formula BMW cars will soon be looking for a 'club home'.

But to give ultra-credit, the merging and matching of the F2000 Zetec's with the Pinto's into FC was a good idea (in progress). Saved another whole new class to further dilute the grid size.

I know there was an effort to get the Formula Renault homologated into some class. Did that ever happen??

[carnut169]

I suspect more consolidation is on the horizon...

[RussMcB]

<snip> And don't forget, the used up FM Rensis, Formula Renault and Formula BMW cars will soon be looking for a 'club home'. <snip>

They'll easily slip into FS, right? I kinda thought that was the impetus for the FS class - formula cars that don't fit SCCA's regular classes.

[rickb99]

Yes FS in SCCA is also called Formula Libre (FL) by some clubs. It simply means, I am Liberated of all the normal things that make you what you are. I can do anything as long as I meet the safety standards and am styled more or less like a Formula car.

[Stan Clayton]

And don't forget, the used up FM Rensis, Formula Renault and Formula BMW cars will soon be looking for a 'club home'.

The FM-Renesis (Pro Mazda) and Formula Renault (Fran-Am) are already classified in FA and/or FS, but there have been no requests or even interest expressed in making them separate classes.

AFAIK, we have not heard a peep from any F-BMW owners about joining the Club, but classing them in FS would be a snap, as they are FIA homologated in F3.

[formulasuper]

They'll easily slip into FS, right? I kinda thought that was the impetus for the FS class - formula cars that don't fit SCCA's regular classes.

Russ is correct, FS class is for "cars that meet the general regulations of Section 9 of the GCR for Formula Category cars, yet are different in concept and specifications from the current SCCA Formula classes."
I believe I have maybe the only Formula car that this class was created for. My RT5 Hayabusa powered car is not eligible for any other class, however many other cars run in both their designated class & in FS simply by getting dual homologation for both classes. The homologation process does not check for class legality, only for safety specs, therefore it is possible for someone to take their new FA with dual homolagation & run in FS without changing anything but the A to an S. I guess if the competition is too great in their own class they can just race FS to win and get a track record in FS. Ok, I've said it, but I doubt the racers that need to read it ever visit this forum.

[carnut169]

If you ask the officials to check the cars for compliance they may Grant your request...

[RussMcB]

<snip> I guess if the competition is too great in their own class they can just race FS to win and get a track record in FS. <snip>

Are you talking to me? :-).

I must admit that describes my situation a couple of years ago. My FA-legal FSV wasn't as fast as "regular" atlantics. But, the main reason I got dual homologation was because it allowed me to run at the ARRC. I had run there in IT a few times and it was such a fun event that I hated to sit it out.

When I first entered FS, my rear wing had winglet extensions and was .25" wider than FA legal, only so I could say it wasn't legal for FA. After a while I gave up the pretense. I figured if anyone ever pushed the issue I'd say my engine was 3 liters or I had a 7 speed transaxle and let them protest me. Of course, I wasn't beating a lot of people so nobody cared.

I think the same thing happens in other "catch all" classes, such as SPO and ASR. There are a lot of GT-1 and C & DSR's that change classes to run the ARRC.

[formulasuper]

No Russ, I wasn't referring to you. I understand regional racers in your situation wanting to run the "regional cars only" ARRC race. What I don't understand is National racers that race the Runoffs in National classes and run regionals and/or the ARRC in the same cars by changing the class letters on the side of the car.

[glenn cooper]

F'd Up Beyond All Reasoning?
Coello taken out by a wayward FM? Geez Fu, what story were you reading? I was there and unfortunately the (unquestionably Uber fast) driver in question took himself out when he decided to launch like Tony Kannan out of T14 towards the green. Geez - FM's were not even in the same race!

Why so many classes you say?
Let me give you the stuation as I see it:
I want to drive FA, but my reality has that dream squashed even before my first fresh Hassslegren has been quoted ($$$$).
Having driven FM and Star Mazda Pro Series, up until the switch to the Pro FM ('04) I have competed with a very fast group of racers.
I've seen plenty of FC boneheaded maneuvers in my time as well. Lot's of clanging this year in the southeast - go figure.
I actually got a chance to drive a pre-production Pro FM, probably the fastest thing this side of a FA I'd likely have the chance to pilot.
Alas, budegtary constraints put the Kabosh on that whole thing as well...

What's a racer to do?

Lets see what else is up the ladder (In Coop's Not-so Humble Opinion) a way's...

FC - A very cool chassis powered by a tractor motor straight outta the 70's!?!?
I can tell you straight away I (and likely any kid comning up out of Karts) is not going to get excited listening to that thing drone around the track. The engines a very pricey, and at the end of the day are not inspiring me. Add in the fact that it's about a second or so faster than a FM (nice power and longevity) - What's the point?

Now something super sexy arrives in the form of a Continental, but lift the engine cover and there is a proper lump back there now. Add in the fact that for somewhere in the 'hood of a few thousand dollars, you can have a fresh, low mileage (allready broken in!) 180 HP, multi valve, 13k rpm SCREAMER mill, AND a fresh transmission. For a few thou!!

The price of this performance? In my case, not having the skills to design and build my own (as some have), probably right at 20k. Build your own for a lot less, or go turnkey for $45-55k. It's up to you and your wallet.

Let's recap:
Plentiful, affordable modern engines,
Proven modern chassis,
Damn-near FA performance at a fraction of the cost.

Seems to me it's not a matter of "Why FB", but rather "Why anything else"?

At times I can be much more diplomatic (as my fellow FB brethren have shown above), I guess this wasn't one of those times!

Regards, GC

[samiam520]

Also, don't forget FST. It is gaining momentum quickly and should be a regional class next year. For those that are unfamiliar with FST it is basically a modern day FV with a 1600cc air cooled engine, disc brakes, rack and pinion steering, CF spec tires and 13" x 6" rims. It still uses the FV transmission with the swing axle and the later style front beam with ball joints instead of link pins. With the rules package that is in place it should have the lowest direct operating cost of any class, under $200.00 per race.

Scott

mystiqueracing.com

[Mike B]

F'd Up Beyond All Reasoning?
Coello taken out by a wayward FM? Geez Fu, what story were you reading? I was there and unfortunately the (unquestionably Uber fast) driver in question took himself out when he decided to launch like Tony Kannan out of T14 towards the green. Geez - FM's were not even in the same race!

Glenn,
I think he was talking about Niki's brother, Tony Coello, driving an FF. Fubar is still inaccurate, though. As I recall, Tony broke a half-shaft exiting T5 and was a sitting duck for the next car through, which happened to be an FM.

I'm obviously 100% in agreement with everything else you said. You're on a roll, go with it!

[D.T. Benner]

As a former Mazda pro Racer you may remember that one of the challenges was racing equal cars to see who the best driver was? Same with the old Pinto and Zetec and FE cars! Do you really need a 13000 RPM screamer to prove you are a better driver?
Sometimes I wonder if those who are so intoxicated with the FB idea ever stand back and look at the bigger picture? Every year the Bike companies up the performance of their croch rockets and with the cost of new purpose built cars passing $50K is the whole thing going to turn into another DSR escalation?
I'm happy for those who see FB as a chance to construct/convert a car and the resulting pride in their results. BUT I have been around DSR's long enough to see the MC engine/chain drive package is not a very reliable combination. "Why anything else?"indeed,why not.

[rickb99]

I think Fubar's opening comment about the sudden proliferation of formula class's does have some merit. And I did forget FST. Haven't been following that in a long time. I didn't realize they already had a class designation.

Many of us watched the near demise of C/SR (maybe even on probation one year) due to not maintaining average entry numbers in National races. They worked hard to get the numbers up and keep their status. Perhaps some of the comments above are general in nature about how FB and FE did not go through the GCR specified process to attain National stature. But that is an old story not worth rehashing.

The good new is, I was reading Racecar Engineering last night. We have a NEW open wheel class coming. Isn't that great news... The Superleague (how'd they pick that name?) will be here next year. Panoz chassis, Menard V12 with 750 HP. The 1st 6 races are in Europe next year with, get this, FOOTBALL TEAMS (that means soccer, for now) providing "support" and promotion for their car teams. "Expansion" is planned outside Europe. Go figure. By 2010 we'll have the Atlanta Braves in the pits during a Superleague race at Road Atlanta!!

Wonder where these 'over with' series cars will fit in club racing? 750 HP, Hmm slightly more then FA's there. Maybe a Pinto, Zetec or Suzuki will fit in the chassis

You have to wonder why a new Formula car 'class' comes along almost every 2 years. I guess with the ONE chassis syndrome that seems to have been started by NASCAR (chock), nobody who wants to build a chassis for a pro series can just design one that fits existing rules and sell cars into that pro series. So they get a couple of billionaires together and start their own.

Now, moving on to the new and innovative Aquila FZ1 Zetec (1,800 cc) powered FF. No, don't panic, it's in Denmark (for now)

The SCCA is is left to sort out how to mix in a class and match in a run group when these formula cars come to the club. They really do try to provide a "club" home for as many as possible. And that's great.

D.T.B.
I (sadly) have to agree with you. My D/SR and competition days go WAY back before MC engines were used in D/SR. Yes back in the Fiat days. But when my son decided to go racing I told him D/SR was the one true way. Inexpensive home built with only restriction being engine displacement. I watched the MC DNF's and the DNS's once we went to the track and became disheartened. Then witnessed (on the D/SR Forum) the price of a 'good' car go from $12,000 to $20,000 range to $45,000 then $52,000 then $65,000 the whole idea of D/SR racing seemed foolish. The D/SR I MOST admire is Bob Fox! Tows his Fox car all over the west and just has super fun driving it. He won't win against a Stohr or Phoenix but he represents the heart and soul of D/SR racing!

Hooray, we found an FC to fit our needs Now, if everybody will just convert to Zetec's maybe we can pick up about 15 to 20 Pinto engines for $250 a piece and Jeff will be set for his entire racing career!

P.S.
I don't know why but I hope HP is never gone. Just seems to harken back to the birth of the SCCA. It's the last of the small bore 'in the beginning' groups and used to have gigantic fields. It's our history out there when they run.

[RussMcB]

I like to think that motorcycle powered DSR guys have worked out a majority of the bugs and we (FB) have and will definitely benefit from that.

I was drawn to FB because it is actually more affordable than FC, at least at the level I'd like to run (not Runoffs contender, but not a back marker either).

I can't afford a Zetec and the four speed Pinto, while fun and challenging, is unexciting. The bike engine is (arguably) half the cost of a Pinto engine. I wont even mention the transaxle aspect. (Oops. I just did. :-).

Regarding the comparison between DSR & FB - don't forget that FB doesn't allow internal engine mods, so the drive trains should be more reliable and cheaper.

[jgaither]

P.S.
I don't know why but I hope HP is never gone. Just seems to harken back to the birth of the SCCA. It's the last of the small bore 'in the beginning' groups and used to have gigantic fields. It's our history out there when they run.

Rick: Never fear. HP is alive and doing very well in the vintage groups. Such is the path now for older cars and declining classes - and it's not a bad thing either. Even S2 is doing great in vintage with huge fields and great racing - with those old tractor motors!

jg

[rickb99]

Russ, I think I agree

Seemed like the relatively stock MC's held together better without a doubt. I did look in the F1000 section a while back and see that 'crate engines' are now $4,500 is that correct? So between D/SR and F1000 all those 500 mile junk yard engines at $1,200 to $1,500 are soaked up?

Obviously with my location, there are Stohr F1000's running in Portland, OR. but I've never seen one. The first Phoenix FB will be home based here in Seattle and I'm hoping to see it in action before the end of the year. Hopefully he will bring it out to Bremerton next month.

[RussMcB]

I did look in the F1000 section a while back and see that 'crate engines' are now $4,500 is that correct? So between D/SR and F1000 all those 500 mile junk yard engines at $1,200 to $1,500 are soaked up?

I doubt it. There seems to be a steady supply donated to the market by unfortunate bike riders. Do a search on ebay and you'll see lots of engines for sale.

I may not be the best person to ask about engine prices and availability. I'm just happy I was able to buy two low mileage 2005 Kawasaki engines for about $1,000 each. FB Class "front runners" may be spending a lot more on their engines.

[rickb99]

Russ, I just did something similar but back door search. Man, if you don't Google all this racing stuff often, you can miss out in a hurry. Any body aware of this? That sort of looks like Clark Lincolns body. But maybe it's just that Clark used that color when he intro'd his wonderful contribution.

http://www.arbitragecars.com/dsr.html

Can a Glamer F1000 be far behind??

[carnut169]

Can a Glamer F1000 be far behind??

Hopefully not.

I am in the same boat w/ Russ... running Ebay engines in an older chassis. I see two different groups racing F1K, the guys who are not afaid to chop up a tired Fc and those wanting to pilot some of the coolest looking cars on the track (new FBs). Both groups see the economic advantages of running a stock MC engine.

I believe the stock motors are reliable as I've experienced it 1st hand.

Lets face it, we race b/c its fun. Its fun with a tractor motor, its fun with a FA or a Formula First. For me FB is a way of maximizing the fun with a minimum budget. $200 gets you around the track w/ a 60's VW engine, right (I know your not including tires)? Its about the same for the 21st century rocket. Take Russ for example... $1000 engine will last for at least 1 year assuming he does nothing stupid. At the end of the year its still worth $500. If he does 6 races thats engine/ trans cost of less than $100 per race. Throw in chains, brakes, yada yada and you are going around the track for couple hundered bucks- just much faster.


There are not too many formula classes, there are just not enough people racing formula cars!
Hopefully FB and FST will help reverse this situation.

[Bill Bonow]

$200 gets you around the track w/ a 60's VW engine, right (I know your not including tires)?

Sean,

We did a three season/year study that includes everything (yes, tires too) less entry fee, towing and food. It came to $198 average. And VW still builds the engine in Mexico. I'll bet you'll start seing them in SE Div in '08.

[carnut169]

Thats amazing Bill. Well done!

[Bill Bonow]

Here is a photo of a '07 Campbell Evolution Formula First (BeaveRun) to get an idea what the class looks like (plus I wanted to attempt posting a photo)

[Stan Clayton]

Nice looking car, Bill. How much does a new turn-key FST go for? Thx! Stan