Reynard Whaletail???

[jabro1000]

I'm not sure if that is the proper name for the bodywork I'm dealing with; I think I read a post somewhere here at some time which referenced a "whaletail", but that could well be a figment of the old imagination, and if I in fact did, I could easily be throwing it out there in the wrong context. Apologies if so. My SF90 has the type of rear wing assembly which looks essentially (to me at least) like the rear body section of 1.6L Reynards of that era with the addition of the two vertical components (terminology?) of the wing fastened to the bodywork. Inside the body section there is an ~1" metal tube cast into the body mold which looks like it should fit into some type of bracket attached somewhere near the gearbox (similar to the way the nose piece mates up to the front crush box); however, no such bracket exists on the car at present. Right now the tail section just mates up with a few little clips on the main body section which just seems like a feeble connection to me. It seems like the tube/bar inside should connect with a bracket to make things a little more stout. If anyone out there with a Reynard would care to share how your tail section mates with the rest of the car I'd appreciate the comparison...Curious to know what peoples opinions are of this style of tail versus the more compact and seemingly much lighter style rear wings which just attach to a bracket on the gearbox. Thanks in advance for any help!

[FC63F]

You have the right terminology for the tail section. It is called a whale tail and was part of the car in itis original design. There are a lot of these up in-the rafters... and they are there for a reason.

I have a virgin whale tail in white which bolts right up to the car and I was not tempted to use it.. They are heavy, fragile and aero dynamic bricks.

I am aftaid the right way forward will cost some $$ but be much more effective, effecient and lighter than your whale tail. What you will want to do is contact Keith Averill at Averill Racing and have him build you a modern up to date wing system for your 90 Reynard. It will provide the right kind of downforce, be easy to attach and remove from the car and in comparison it will be much lighter more effecient and effectie

Attached is a picture of what you are looking for on an 84 Reynard

[Dave]

Whale tail bad... unless it's on a 911.


Read this...

http://gnegy.com/reynard/summary_pri.../diffusers.txt

[jabro1000]

Up in the rafters and for good reason... I guess that explains why I got two of them when I bought the cars. Thanks for the suggestion and opinion on the prefered style of wing I had suspected that the whale tail was the inferior of the two possibilities, but have had to debate the opposing viewpoint with my lead mechanic a few times...a few more replies like yours could really give me some ammo to shut him down for good on the issue I know a gentleman in our area with an 85 1600 Reynard who refuses to run with the tail section of his bodywork on for the fact that it is so ridiculously heavy, but I wasn't sure if it somehow transformed into a work of genius with the addition of the upper wing elements.

I actually also have a rear wing assembly identical to what you have pictured (was the recommended setup of the individual I purchased the cars from) which is I suppose what I should run with as a matter of principle, but I am curious to know still how the whale tail is supposed to mount in case I am forced to use it for some unforseen reason which will sadly more than likely become a reality at some point in the game.

[formulasuper]

I had a 1985 Reynard F2000 that came with the original whale tail. It had a steel bracket bolted to the Hewland that the tube in the tail fit into when you installed the tail.

[jabro1000]

Thanks, I figured that must be the intended installation means or the tube wouldn't be there...Mongo smart! I'll have to add fab mounting brackets to the to do list. It does seem odd to me that arguably the best and unarguably the most versatile open wheel chassis designer of our time would accept a key aerodynamic component on his car which seems to be held in lower regard than a steaming pile of dog crap. How could this be?

[rickb99]

Mongo is smart But Mongo's dad (lowly mechanic) never looked up the whales tail to see the bar. Also, Mongo's dad may think it's better to drag your whale tail in the weeds a few times before putting the good tail on

Dave:
Jeffs 'good' cockpit surround doesn't look like that either. Which one is that you're using? His good one has a 2 piece shell that surrounds the transaxle with the wing mounted to the Hewland.

Might we be better off just leaving those body pieces in the paddock too?

[jabro1000]

Lol, I figured we'd wait to talk on the phone to smack one another around on this one, but I guess not. Couldn't agree more on the drag the whale tail through the weeds concept. Honestly I never really looked closely at the tail section either until putting all the bodywork back on today; thing needs someplace for the tube/bar to attach or the first blade of grass it hits in the weeds is going to pull the whole shebang right off if it doesn't fly off on it's own down the straight. And I said LEAD mechanic, not lowly...

[FC63F]

There are all kinds of aftermarket parts floating around for 87-90 Reynards. You would have to confirm this with Keith Averill but the whale tail was an original piece. I have not seen one run for a few years. I would also not really advocate running one even in a test mode unless you intend to run it in your race mode - (test and develope with your intended configuration

The clam shell I think was a later addition when people went with wing systsms (Mono plane, bi plane, two wings systems, w wing with flaps etc) Most if not all started with the wing system bolting to the rear of the Hewland and a number of aftermarket suppliers provided clamshells that enclosed the Hewland and were ment to clean up the rear areo. The clamshell attached to the rear of the cockpit surround and to the lower rear body panels with pins/zeus fasterners etc. I have one and think there could be some advantage but so far have not taken the effort to work out the assembly. I am of the mind that the current simple configuration (no appendages) is simpler and right now - simple is best

see pics

David Keep

[rickb99]

Thanks Dave,

The black one is the style we have for the good body work. I notice whoever that is, isn't running the rear enclosure pieces.

The most 'fun' Jeff and I had on Saturday was trying to get the drivers right radiator remounted into the pod. Talk about your Yoga exercise!

It was removed to drain the cooling system when we first got the car. However, we had to drain again to clear out the Prestone super flush. Tried the 'recommended' shop vac trick. It was a bit 'tricky' but we figured out how to do it with minimum spillage and it worked.

P.S. We aren't in the "test and develop mode as yet. It's sorta like the 'how the heck do you drive this thing mode'. As the lowly lead mechanic my goal would be to set the car up to go as slow as possible short of pulling 2 plug wires

[FC63F]

The black car is an 89 reynard with the Averill kit and represents the high end of the spectrum. Car is at Mid Ohio and the picture was late last year. The car does not have the clamshell covering the trans only because the owner doesn't have the piece.

The red car is not wearing the clamshell but does own one - the challenge is that the car often runs Waterford which requires some form of a muffler and I as the owner decided to always run a muffler for convenience sake - so I have the peice but will need to do some kind of engineering to use the piece - maybe next year

As for the configuation you will be "how the heck do you drive the thing" I have found painfully that it is important to operate the car in the config you will race in - that way you can develop your check lists, and have consistent feedback from the driver. I am a bit of a stickler on this as I have made that error and when the car acts badly - you have no baseline to understand the car's feedback. I have had that experience just changing from Goodyear to Avon (hard pro series) to used good year, back to soft Avons and then back to good year. Never really got control of the car - this year I am running only 160's and I have a much better baseline of comparison.

Regards

David Keep

[LAJ]

Rex Gunning has and I think still runs the slim tail (clam shell ) at the rear of their Reynard.
Corey Collins ran it some last year and from pics online I see he is not currently running one.
Here is some free advise- go with the newer (smaller) wings & clamshell tail. as on most cars where you can REALLY cut drag is by cleaning up the rear !!!!!!!! John Green can back this up when he was running his ff2000 84 Van Diemen(center Radiator) at Mid-Ohio he ran without the tail and then with the tail same day. I believe it was 5mph more at the end of the back staight with the tail on then without it!! This was with out a diffuser on the car.If you run a diffuser you would have an even better reason to run the small rear clamshell to help clean up the air going over the top of the diffuser.(making it a lot more effetive)
Working at a windtunnel on more than a few racecars,most of the work has been managing the air around the back of the car .
I would talk to Kieth about new rear wing setup and the slim bodywork to go around the trans.
Lee

[JHandley]

Hers is a pic of the rear tail piece support bracket from my 1984 Reynard 84sf.
Probably something similar to what was used on the newer reynard.
Hope this helps.

[FC63F]

Attached is a picture of the improved tail - this is a two piece affair that is similar to Rex Gunning's car. It is a nice assembly part that fits good - but I would need to get creative with the muffler - havn't had the time

David

[rickb99]

Too funny FC63, That's even a little different then our 2 piece. looks nice. Ours is same concept in the bottom wrap around part. But ours is a 'clam shell' design. One piece wrap then a top piece that fits down on it. Must be multiple sources for these body panels unless, some aren't made any more.

Not sure on the muffller issue here. Our tail pipe exits below the lower A-arm so it's clear of the clam shell. Although a Supertrapp is in the box of spare parts it was not attached. We have a 103 dB limit at Portland, Pacific and Bremerton (SCCA rule at Bremerton). And a 98 dB at the Canadian track (but we won't run up there any time soon). We slipped the Supertrapp on last Saturday and fired it up. Way, way over quiet. Will have to get some sound readings and have the trapp in the truck.

Thanks for that picture JIFFY. That should be a big help to the driver/fabricator

Now that I mentioned it, this whole sound thing is a complete joke. As a flagger, I'm pretty close to the track. A formula car, sports racer or even a sedan can come by that doesn't bother your ear even a little but they are getting called for sound violation. Then a boomer V8 or a real screamer comes by that about blows an ear drum and it's fine for sound. I know it has to do with the frequency/amplitude but the entire system needs revamping for what is really damaging in terms of volume versus frequency. It just has to do with how it's measured across the audio spectrum, gain of the system versus frequency and any built in filtering. Maybe a sound engineer will see this. I just know RF, AC and DC

[Phil Picard]

Still have a Virgin bullet tail for sale , fits 87 and up.

http://www.apexspeed.com/forums/atta...8&d=1172373078

[FC63F]

There are at least three different slim clam shell designs in the market - not sure if any are in current production but you never know. I suppose for some $$ you could get Pennon to build their version. I just got one of the slimline noses from Pennon and as you would expect - nice piece.

Mufflers here at Waterford are an issue - rule is 75 DB at the lot line AND the muffler must be commercially available - ie no coffee cans wired on. I run a Dynomax oval curtesy of Steve Myers and Dynomax Performance mufflers which has NO adverse impact on HP -- perforated straight tube with F/G roving. Easily beats Waterford requirements. I have in the past run Supertraps with 20 plates and that worked as well but I think a HP loss. Taking the muffler off and on for specific tracks was too much of a pain - so Dynomax designed an oval I use everywhere.

As a side note - several years ago Waterford hired a professional sound engineering firm to perform tests at the track when racing and one of the findings was that even if you really cleaned up the exhaust of a formula continental - you would still be at the limit with mechanical noise such as gear noise, air intake noise and general tire noise etc. However, to keep the track we do what we have to do.

Regards,

David Keep

[rickb99]

Phil,
Amazing, that one is virtually identical but subtley different then ours. It would certainly work though. We have 2 whale tails and 1 clam shell at the moment. So we're a bit over stocked. But, as the driver (Mongo) is grimacing at the thought of hauling a whale tail around even with his great strength, could I ask how much you're asking?

Maybe I could convince one of our locals to buy a whale tail and make it a little easier for our driver to get around him

[Phil Picard]

$350.00 Plus shipping, UPS ground.

[Richard Learned]

Phil;
Just got back in country. Thanks for the email and sold. Tell me where to send the cash.

Richard L

[JHandley]

Thanks for that picture JIFFY. That should be a big help to the driver/fabricator

I'm not using it anymore Rick.
Got a Newer style wing on my reynard.
If you think about going with the original whale tail, let me know.
You may be able to use it as a pattern.
Jeff

[rickb99]

Jiffy,
Unless Jeff really objects massively, I would intend he run the whaletail for at least the first couple of races. So a pattern would be good.

I know you guys feel we should run the right stuff from the start. But this is a novice driver fresh out of the box. Both of our local tracks are very, very unforgiving of off track errors. The good body work we have is really good. The red whaletail already has some cracks in the pods and heavy rubs on the whales bottom. We will eventually repair it as a second set. But, I'd hate to see him do his first oh-oh with the good stuff on there.

Yes, it would be good to have a pattern

[Larry]

...if you (or anyone) is interested, I have several of the original style tails in stock. (Actually, I wish I just had several--I have many.) I'll take $99 each for these tails.

Larry Oliver
International Racing Products
703-759-0567 most evenings until 9:00 PM eastern

[rickb99]

Do they come with mounting brackets??

At this point in the thread I have to fess up to really being the "lowly and DUMB" mechanic. Jeff has a data logger built into his brain. It's set to record everything I say for future reference. The primary function of the logger is to identify any errors or omissions on my part. Jeff pushed the 'recall' button last night.

Well this time I made a big error! When the car arrived we were quickly trying to sort through a box of miscellaneous stuff. He pulled a bracket out of the box (you guessed it). I in my haste I tried to match it to the front end. Didn't seem to work. So I said "Toss it. That must be an old style". Oops, yup, he pulled that conversation out of the brain logger last night and reminded me of it. Half of this thread is all my fault for telling him to toss what turns out to be the whaletail mount!

Lesson, NEVER ever throw anything from a race car away for at least 5 years.

So Larry, do those whaletails come with bracket?? Or by chance to you also have "many" of those??

[Steven McWilliams]

On my 84-86 Reynard SF2000 I use the whaletale, but unlike in some of the pictures, my upright is made of fiberglass, and it cuts some weight off. Also, Instead of have a square upright for the whaletail, there is a "U" shape cut out of the front of the upright, so that also looses a lot of weight. The Reynard is a great car to learn with, and you might want to keep the Whaletail on until you get a handle for it, and then move to the better body work. or maybe change the shape of the upright to loose weight.

[Larry]

I'm not at the shop right now, but I'm pretty sure that I have one tail mounting bracket. I'll be glad to check later.

Larry Oliver
International Racing Products
703-759-0567 most evenings until 9:00 PM eastern

[TODD BISHOP]

Now that I've been teased with going to a updated wing assy., does anybody have or know of anybody that makes a clamshell assy. to fit a 84 Reynard? Todd Bishop

[rickb99]

I have no clue if the parts are really still made, if this is the only source or if the prices are current.
http://www.pennon.com/

[rickb99]

Larry,

I've tried to call the 703 number listed above several times today. I get, the number is not in service message. Is there a different number?

We are wondering if you have one of those Whale tail brackets? If Larry doesn't, does anybody else who sees this have one???

Rick

[Phil Picard]

Maybe, not sure, would have to go digging to see. Due to my travel schedule that couldn't happen till the afternoon of the 10th.

Wouldn't be a bad idea to send me a PM to remind me on the 9th

That is of course if you haven't found one by then.

Phil

[Larry]

You can reach me at 703-759-0567. I have a real job that pays money and pays the bills, and I work it until about 3:00 PM. IRP is my second real job--it just doesn't pay money. I'm available at the 703-number from about 4:00 PM until 9:00 PM most evenings. I had several messages on my machine, and I had two hang-ups, so the phone is working.

Larry Oliver
International Racing Products

[rickb99]

Ahh, I see the problem. First post with number had the wrong exchange (3 digit part). Will PM and call on 9th or 10th.

[Larry]

FYI, I'll be traveling from Sept 7 thru Sept 11.

Larry Oliver
International Racing Products
703-759-0567