Entry Fees too high

[Todd McAfee]

Lola,
I don't believe that it was a double school, but rather a two day school. It only had one sanction number. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong. This is no different than a typical two day regional. I know it's tough, but them are the rules. The region works very hard to put on events and make a small profit at each event. We have to, that is how the region survives for the future. I just want people to know you weren't slighted. There was a pretty heated discussion on this over on the improved touring site about 6 weeks ago, don't have the link handy.

Todd

[John Merriman]

One important thing to remember: A 'club" - this Club, any club - is made up of its members. Its not a company selling a product. Nor is the Club a business that accepts fees for services rendered. (Seems that a lot of people think of the SCCA that way. They're wrong) The members ARE the Club. Your Region is locally managed by an RE and a Board of Directors. Road Racing is managed locally by the Comp Board or Road Racing Board. In my experience, these people are a VERY hard working volunteer crowd who pour their hearts into running their Region. The meetings of those groups are held monthly and are open to the Members. While chatting on the web is useful because it gets issues on the table for discussion on line (and there are some good points posted above along with a bunch of silly ones) the real way to find out about and possibly change things like entry fees, spectators, track-time, race groups, refunds, Regional budgets or anything else it to chat it up with the Board Members at the track or at one of their meetings. An example: In 1984, a group of NER racers wanted a new class for that season. Don Denomme, Rick Hiland, Craig Olmstead and Norm Marx and I got together and hashed out a proposal. At a mid-winter Comp Board Meeting, within five minutes after I presented the proposal, the Board voted in the new class - Club Ford. Thus, in a move which was also happening in some west coast Regions at that time, a strong need was met - by way of a volunteer Board acting in a favorable way, responsive to the Members' interests. I'm not saying that all the various issues raised fairly above can be tackled and solved in that way but it is by far the best way I know to become properly informed and to raise items for consideration by fellow Members who are busting their tails week in and week out to make the Regions events and race weekends a success. My advice: try it.

[LolaT440]

Don't get me wrong.

SCCA people are great. I have an absolute wonderful time. Everyone is more than helpful.

I don't see how people can argue that the entry fee is not high. I don't care if you are a millionaire. That is a lot of money to pay for 1.5 hours or so.

The price has got to effect the number of members and competitors. It clearly will cut down my racing compared to if there were more competitors at $100 entry. How can this be argued?

And my point about the school was SCCA is a business , not a club. If it was a private club, they would throw me a credit. But it is not, it's a business. And me being a club member means nothing when it comes to getting paid. I have no problem with that when you look at it from a business position.

So if everyone is cool with 325.00, fine. No one said I had to like it.

And about the 908 guy, yes. The point is the economy tightened up a little, so even these guys cut back because of costs not just the entry fee of course. I even think te Jefferson 500 was canceled this year because of low turn out. So my point is it is not just me that is looking at the costs of things.

This may be a perfect time to bring up the annual "alternate FF engine" thread. That usually brings everyone to the floor.

[cooleyjb]

Well we could alaways compare to autox which people consider cheap racing.

Yeah for 1.5 hours of track time 400 bucks for road racing is expensive but not overly expensive in the whole scheme of things.

Autocross pays 30 bucks for 5 minutes of seat time. That equates to 540 bucks for 1.5 hours of seat time.



FWIW here is the listing of insuarnce rates for SCCA
Spectator adds 250bucks as has been previously stated
http://www.scca.com/_FileLibrary/Fil...t_and_Memo.pdf

[Roux]

I think it was about 14 years ago that I dragged my first car to SCCA school. A 2 day affair that ended miserably with a failed part in the very first session. Maybe a total of 4 minutes of track time. No refund as I had turned a wheel. The car was a piece of junk and I didn't have any cash to spend on it. It let me down at the next school after a full day of running. So the second day was again paid for but not used. Third school was a charm. Car lasted the first day, I got signed off and even let a friend borrow the beast so that he could complete the second day of the school as his pos was not running.

Many years later I have figured out how to earn more money and also deal with the surprises. I have a second job that puts 6K into a race fund. Not surprisingly I race about 6 regionals a year. My only advise to you when you shell out a lump of cash that seem too high is to say to yourself, " a year from now I will have forgotton how much this bothered me, so lets get this thing to the track and race".

Sucks, but what can a man do?

I really had a great race weekend at WGI this past weekend and all I can think about was the insane cornering speeds and how hard some of the guys were running around me. I cannot recall what the entry was. 250? or was it 350? If it was 500 I would have noticed and remembered. Work on changing your pain threshold and come on out and run as many events as you can.

[Wren]

yes, it is a lot to pay for very little track time.

I've learned my lesson on refunds for events after making a $300 donation to the Florida region when I missed their new years eve double regional. I gave up after about 10 emails and multiple promises that the check was in the mail. Maybe I'll send them a 1099 for the money I gave them.

All future entry fees will be made with credit card, if I miss the event and the money isn't refunded, I'll dispute the charges and let the region deal with the cc company.

[RussMcB]

Don't get me wrong.

SCCA people are great. I have an absolute wonderful time. Everyone is more than helpful.

I don't see how people can argue that the entry fee is not high. I don't care if you are a millionaire. That is a lot of money to pay for 1.5 hours or so.

The price has got to effect the number of members and competitors. It clearly will cut down my racing compared to if there were more competitors at $100 entry. How can this be argued?

And my point about the school was SCCA is a business , not a club. If it was a private club, they would throw me a credit. But it is not, it's a business. And me being a club member means nothing when it comes to getting paid. I have no problem with that when you look at it from a business position.

So if everyone is cool with 325.00, fine. No one said I had to like it.

And about the 908 guy, yes. The point is the economy tightened up a little, so even these guys cut back because of costs not just the entry fee of course. I even think te Jefferson 500 was canceled this year because of low turn out. So my point is it is not just me that is looking at the costs of things.

This may be a perfect time to bring up the annual "alternate FF engine" thread. That usually brings everyone to the floor.

The question that keeps popping into my head is, what actions will YOU be taking in the next weeks or months to help lower entry fees? Will it be something more than post on an internet forum? Maybe you could contact your regional officers and let them know you think more promotion needs to happen to draw spectators. Maybe they will be thrilled that someone has stepped up to the plate to address this problem.

[ghoneycutt]

The key to all of this is the PERCEIVED VALUE. Apparently, there's a problem with SCCA in that regard. I'm not sure what fixes it, but unhappy members is not a good thing.

I run mostly with FRCCA ( Formula Race Car Club of America) URL="http://www.frcca.com/"]http://www.frcca.com/[/URL] now because I get a couple of hours a day of track time, a good sprint race with trophies, innovative races like 1/3 mile asphalt ovals, Summit Shenandoah CLOCKWISE and counter-clock, etc. There is a emphasis on sportsmanship, hey, we even make it through turn one! Safety IS a priority- sportsmanship has allot to do with safety and although it's easy for those uninformed to take shots at anything not SCCA, I would encourage those doing the talking to come join us for an event. You just might be surprised at how well things run and enjoy the family atmosphere.

If you go to the FRCCA website and read the history link, allot of what people are observing about SCCA is the basis of why FRCCA was formed. Good reading.

I'm selfish about my recreation. If at any time I find myself on a Monday regretting or complaining about my weekend racing experience, there's something wrong. Time to take up golf or some other hobby. Running FRCCA will most definitely keep me off the "links"

Greg

[RussMcB]

Interesting post, Greg. Thanks for sharing that view point.

It makes me wonder, if you listed the different aspects of FRCCA & SCCA side by side, what things are better on the FRCCA side? What's preventing SCCA from doing as well in those areas? Are they things in out control?

Just wondering out loud...

[Dennis McCarthy]

FRCCA-RCCA has been around a long time and if that deal
was so much better why didn't it put SCCA out of business?
It's never caught on.
Simply check out the FRCCA driver counts.
There's a reason they're so low.
The grass is no greener on the other side of that fence either.

[RussMcB]

FRCCA-RCCA has been around a long time and if that deal
was so much better why didn't it put SCCA out of business?
It's never caught on.
Simply check out the FRCCA driver counts.
There's a reason they're so low.
The grass is no greener on the other side of that fence either.

In my most recent post regarding FRCCA, I was hoping to spark a more positive discussion. Greg has obviously enjoyed some aspects about FRCCA, so why not do some comparisons to see why Greg and others find more value in FRCCA than SCCA? It may lead to a dead end, but then again it may highlight some possible improvements in the way SCCA events operate.

My gut feeling is that it will be hard to move a mountain (SCCA's established way of life), and comparing the two clubs is like comparing apples & oranges (FRCCA doesn't have 30 classes, for instance). On the other hand, we shouldn't be closed minded.

[John Nesbitt]

When considering entry fees, keep in mind that the fee for the regional at LRP ($325) is sort of an anomaly, at least on the East Coast.

From what I hear, the pricing situation at LRP reflects the owner's desire to put the track on a financial footing which would ensure its future as a race track (ie. make it profitable enough as a track to head off alternate uses of the property). So, perhaps the proper question to ask oneself when considering an event there is, "Would I prefer LRP as a $325 regional, or as a golf course/subdivision?".

There are alternatives opening up in the Northeast. The track in southern New Jersey is being paved, and the Palmer track may proceed if NER can overcome the environmental and financial hurdles. Either of these should provide lower entry fees.


I wonder whether some of the complaint about entry fees isn't reflected angst about other issues:

1. The decline in the quality of our track time. As classes splinter, and total open wheel entries decline relative to SM/IT, the run groupings become more and more unattractive. Racing in an alphabet-soup Wings&Things group, with large speed differentials, and few other entries in one's own class, is less fun. This is purely a function of the number of cars we put on track, and is under our control.

2. Costs overall are escalating. Metal prices and petroleum prices are going up as the Asian industrial countries bid for finite resources in order to produce those $39 DVD players (and exploding tires and poisoned dog food). Anything with a hydrocarbon component (fuel, tires, shipping, food) reflects the increasing cost of crude oil. SCCA is not to blame; it's more Walmart's fault.

[racer27]

Costs are high due to market factors. The LRP and other track land needs to produce more revenue for it's owners then could be produced developing it for other uses. Rental fees are then set accordingly.

In the future the price will reach such a point that customers will not pay it and then the owners will be forced to find alterate land uses and we lose a venue. For me , if the entry fee is in excess of $280 (For what is currently offered) I no longer seriously consider it an option. Differant packaging (Pro, Spectator, Schooling, Telivised, etc) may entice me to pay more but my typicial raceday fee is $280. If my choices were limiteed to options costing that much or more, unless I win the lottery, I'll stop competeing and get my entertainment elsewhere.

A compounding factor is that we don't have allot of track choices. Either we pay or we don't play. If there was more competion for racing customers, prices would adjust, customer service would go up, etc.

However, this is a catch 22. If built, Thunderbolt, NH, Monticello (Private club), Alpine (Private Club) could provide this competition. These tracks unfortunutly could could drive existing tracks out of business.

LRP is built on high value land. I believe newer tracks will be built on less desirable land (Airports, depressed areas, industrial land, deserts, etc). Also newer tracks will be built with the track not being the only source of revenue. They will be come entertainment centers with hotels, resorts, even casinos.

Long term, I beleive competition is good. It allows the highest value proposition to stand out and attract customers. I

n the same way that competition is of benifit to tracks, it is also of benifit to clubs. The fact that www.formulaproracing.org, www.frcca.com and NASA exist gives people options as to where to spend our Formula racing $. As stated before, this evaualtion and evaluation of other factors leads me to typicially spend my racing $ wiht these alternative clubs. If there was only one option out there and I did not find that option to offer the value I need, I'd not be racing. I can also tell you, that I'd not be racing today, without FRCCA's Rookkie - Tyro Program existing when I started.

[ghoneycutt]

Russ, et al,

There's always the risk in forum chat or email conversations that the writer's intent or demeanor is misunderstood. Much easier to sit around the campfire and debate these things then type on a keyboard. That said, none of my posts on this subject are designed to put down SCCA, club management or the members (of which I'm one). These are simply my opinions on the subject. There is no black and white answer. YMMV

"FRCCA-RCCA has been around a long time and if that deal was so much better why didn't it put SCCA out of business?"

That was never the intention of the club. As I understand it, the signs have been there for quite a while that the amateur hobby of club racing was escalating beyond the means of weekend hobbyists. Partly due to the extreme investment by "teams" and the chase for the latest and greatest parts, set-up, enhancements, constant supply of fresh tires, etc. Although thre are certainly exceptions to this generality, many hobbyists are daunted by the financial commitment to make a competitive run on that level. Referring to the FRCCA history page, you can see the intention of the club. It's an alternative.

"so why not do some comparisons to see why Greg and others find more value in FRCCA than SCCA? "


Foremost for me is that this is a hobby and there is a viewable ceiling on what I may need to spend to get on the podium with FRCCA. Couple that with the sportsmanship mandate of the club, on-track carnage is lessened. When I made the comment in my previous post about "making it through turn 1", I hope I didn't offend anyone but it seems by reports and the discussions on this board that there are many early lap mishaps in some races and that does no one any good. Our FRCCA founder will be quick to tell you that races are not won in the first corner, only lost and that the most important lap is the checkered. When I'm going into 1 either on the pole or back further, that's what's on my mind. No one wants their day or weekend to end on lap one just to load the car on the trailer with a shovel and go home. Where's the satisfaction on Monday morning that your recreational hobby is supposed to fulfill?

"My gut feeling is that it will be hard to move a mountain (SCCA's established way of life), and comparing the two clubs is like comparing apples & oranges (FRCCA doesn't have 30 classes, for instance). On the other hand, we shouldn't be closed minded."

Good point. They are not the same clubs. Member clubs are two-edged. The membership will move the club competition, classing, rules to a place, then sometimes observe that the club officials no longer have the members best interests in mind. Surely, somewhere deep in the hallows of SCCA HQ, someone is thinking "why all the complaints, we thought that you wanted things this way?" Same things occur at Country Clubs, really, any club. With FRCCA's smaller membership count, it's easier for club officials to listen and respond to the membership's ideas and wants. Less chance of spinning out of control. More chance of members being satisfied customers. We do choose to do this hobby, correct?

"Simply check out the FRCCA driver counts. There's a reason they're so low.
The grass is no greener on the other side of that fence either."

But it is planted on solid ground. Track time is not based on car counts, you know what you will be getting. You can rely on safe, clean races and a very welcoming attitude and support from the club and it's members. Yes, FRCCA needs more cars, just like some SCCA classes. The bigger the crowd, the more people that show up for it. If drivers would openly commit to attending an event, more drivers on the fence about attending would commit and then you're starting something.

I entered this thread because the discussion about fees, etc. plus some threads about avoidable wrecks due to poor driver descisions is enough to scare someone from persuing Formula Racing in ANY club. Some of you reading this began at FRCCA or similar clubs and now run SCCA. It's important to bring people into formula car racing on the level they can participate at and not make it seem unobtainable by mere mortals looking to fulfill a hobby.

I keep using the word Hobby. Possibly, there's part of the rub. I clearly know as Clint Eastwood would say, "my limitations". Cash, car, time, etc. No, I will never be SCCA Champion, but I have a shot this year at FRCCA Champion and that's a big deal to me.

Greg

[stonebridge20]

FRCCA-RCCA has been around a long time and if that deal
was so much better why didn't it put SCCA out of business?
It's never caught on.
Simply check out the FRCCA driver counts.
There's a reason they're so low.
The grass is no greener on the other side of that fence either.

I started in RCCA back in 1986. I served as chief instructor from 89 to 92. My last year in CF was 89 as I moved up to F/A (still in RCCA). I left RCCA to test the SCCA F/A waters in 93. After winning the NeDiv F/A championship in 93, I moved on to the Toyota Atlantic series in 94. In 1989 (what I consider the hay day of RCCA) they had 30+ club ford senior fields and the novice group was so big at times that they would split the group and run 2 races. The F/V, F/C, F/F group (mostly SCCA cars) would average 6-8 cars and the F/A group would see 4-6 cars. The racing I did there was the toughest I have ever done in my 22 years of racing. The safety workers were first class and well trained. Pocono would hire the RCCA Jaws of life team to work the NASCAR races as well as many "car clubs" would hire the corner workers for their events. The reason RCCA never "ran SCCA out of business" was the fact that with ONLY formula car classes in RCCA, they couldn't keep up with escalating track rental costs. As the track costs got larger, RCCA started going to smaller and smaller tracks. The RCCA entry fees went up to SCCA levals and more and more people went to SCCA to get back on the "larger" tracks. The problem "snow balled" to the point that RCCA was racing on "modified" 1/3 mile oval/road courses. This may be way out there, but what I think hurt RCCA the most is the "car clubs" and performance track day clubs. Track owners were starting to see the supply and demand issue when more and more of these "car clubs" started popping up in the late 80's and early 90's and priced RCCA right out of the game. In 1989 the track rental at LimeRock was something like $7,000 a day (the highest around) Pocono and Bridgehampton were around $4,000. At that cost, you could put on a race day with 75 cars at $110 entry fee and still afford to feed the corner workers!

Agnif

[rickb99]

Here's a thought for you. If Lime Rock cost $7,000 to rent for a weekend in 1989, it should cost $11,503 today based upon the compounded inflation rate. Allowing for escalating profit demands maybe $20 or $25,000 might be reasonable. So what happen'd?

Some one also mentioned the proliferation of marque clubs and specialty users driving the track rental prices up? At least in our area that's not quite true. They normally take week days and off weekends from SCCA type club racing. In actual fact that should reduce or stabilize track rentals as the track has a broader base of clients.

Once again I must return to the question of PAYING spectators or race sponsors. It's the only reasonable way to provide the track and the club with a revenue source to reduce the entry fees/costs.

Oh and FRCCA does have one sorta neat deal:

12 Month Plan (based on 12 races - Full Season)
- 12 monthly payments (Jan - Dec) of $220.00 ($2,600.00 total)
- Includes: Full Season of racing, Membership, License/Rain Insurance
, One Crew Card, Two tickets to the Awards Banquet, One Ad Panel in the Awards Calendar

12 payments and ammenities for signing up for the season. That sure makes it less painful. Why, heck at $300 a month for 12 race weekends that's still a bargain

[Charles Warner]

Some one also mentioned the proliferation of marque clubs and specialty users driving the track rental prices up? At least in our area that's not quite true. They normally take week days and off weekends from SCCA type club racing. In actual fact that should reduce or stabilize track rentals as the track has a broader base of clients.

Unfortunately there are only so many desirable weekends, especially at the better tracks, and with the proliferation of these alternative groups the demand has gone up while the supply is constant. Leads to higher asking prices.

- 12 monthly payments (Jan - Dec) of $220.00 ($2,600.00 total)
- Includes: Full Season of racing, Membership, License/Rain Insurance
, One Crew Card, Two tickets to the Awards Banquet, One Ad Panel in the Awards Calendar

12 payments and ammenities for signing up for the season. That sure makes it less painful. Why, heck at $300 a month for 12 race weekends that's still a bargain

Interesting. However, what happens if you can not attend all the races because of health or car trouble or scheduling issues? Do you get a pro-rated refund? Or attend the Awards Banquet? Partial refund? Most of us can not predict our personal schedules that far in advance.

[racer27]

... what happens if you can not attend all the races because of health or car trouble or scheduling issues? Do you get a pro-rated refund? Or attend the Awards Banquet? Partial refund? Most of us can not predict our personal schedules that far in advance.

To answer Charles's question, you select from an alterante plan (Below) or as I do (Because my schedule is so unpredictable), no plan at all and pay race by race, $225:

3 Race Plan
- May choose ANY three (3) events:
- 4 payments of $161.25 ($645.00 total)
- No other provisions
6 Race Plan
- May choose ANY six (6) events
- Payment Option #1 - 6 payments of $249.20 ($1,495.00 total)
- Payment Option #2 - 12 payments of $125.00 ($1,500.00 total)
- Includes: 6 races of choice, Membership, License/Rain Insurance and One Crew Card.

Never having needed it, I don't know what the policy is regarding pro-rated discounts, so I can't answer that portion of the question.

[EACIII]

Here's a thought for you. If Lime Rock cost $7,000 to rent for a weekend in 1989, it should cost $11,503 today based upon the compounded inflation rate. Allowing for escalating profit demands maybe $20 or $25,000 might be reasonable. So what happen'd?

Don't know how to do that orignal post thing but $25,000 times 2 days is $50,000 about were it is now. So maybe the price is right.

I am not sure in this market anyone would want to buy an old gravel pit built in wetlands with 50 years of racing fluid in the soil to develop. I can't image a condo development making any money in Lakeville, without the track there the area losses value.

[rickb99]

Uhh, that's a confusmentation of the numbers.

Was 7K for a WEEKend in '89 not a day. Even if that were per day back then, in todays market, based upon inflation that would still be about $23,000 per weekend not 56K.

[Greg Mercurio]

West Coast NorPac/SF Region rates:

----------Infineon Laguna Seca Thunderhill
Regional $265 ------$310 ----------$220
National -----------------------------$365
Dbl Regl- $450--- --$470 -----------$365
Dbl National -------------------------$425


And they increase every year.

[Tom Sprecher]

Costs are high due to market factors. The LRP and other track land needs to produce more revenue for it's owners then could be produced developing it for other uses. Rental fees are then set accordingly...

...In the future the price will reach such a point that customers will not pay it and then the owners will be forced to find alterate land uses and we lose a venue...

...A compounding factor is that we don't have allot of track choices. Either we pay or we don't play. If there was more competion for racing customers, prices would adjust, customer service would go up, etc...

...LRP is built on high value land. I believe newer tracks will be built on less desirable land (Airports, depressed areas, industrial land, deserts, etc). Also newer tracks will be built with the track not being the only source of revenue. They will be come entertainment centers with hotels, resorts, even casinos...

Like it or not tracks are an investment for the owner who expects a decent rate of return or that investment must be sold or converted into something more profitable. Most likely it will not be a race track otherwise why make the same mistake twice?

The rental fee charged is based on what the market will bear. If you don't want to pay the high price there is always another racer in another organization that will. This is how we lost Labor Day weekend at Road Atlanta to Suzuki GP. Always remember: Money talks and BS walks.

[rickb99]

Okay I'll give you an example at a major track:

Portland International Raceway:

SCCA double regional $340
That 'other club' double race weekend $210

and, the other club is $110 more if you want to run in 2 groups.

So I don't know. What, does the SCCA have to pay another $130 for every driver to get a 2nd sanction number?

I admit, $130 isn't a lot in the over all costs of racing. But that amount extra (for each race) to run 6 to 8 races is a lot of minor stuff on the car, a lotta gas in the truck or a new helmet and belts. It could even add up to most of an engine refresh in in 3 years.

[Charles Warner]

SCCA double regional $340
That 'other club' double race weekend $210

As in most things, you get what you pay for. (On the surface it might appear otherwise.)

[Greg Mercurio]

Charles: Not necessarily. Free market forces allow the track to charge what the buyer is willing to pay. Some clubs rent Thunderhill for SIGNIFICANTLY LESS than SCCA rents it to itself. Wrap your arms around that one if you can. Still, we get a really decent rate at Thill, by comparison to the other 2 tracks.

In addition to track fees, some Regions actually try to put some cash in reserve for equipment, repairs and other nice things.

Some Regions (gasp!!) have millions of $$ in the reserve account. At some point there needs to be some reality check on increasing fees balanced against the ever increasing reserves.

[Bill Steele]

When I started racing Formula Ford 18 years ago a friend asked if it was expensive. At the time, my response was. "it is shockingly expensive." In the intervening years nothing has changed on that front.

The real problem with the cost of racing is it is worth it.

[Frank Varano]

I think the only way to make FRCCA bigger is to increase the quality of drivers (no offense meant to anyone in FRCCA). Right now in my Vee i'm working on getting my national because I want to race with the best amerature racers in the Northeast, and right now the SCCA seems to have that. What if 4 or 5 of the top level national formula ford guys decided to head to FRCCA. Would that make it more appealing?

[stonebridge20]

Uhh, that's a confusmentation of the numbers.

Was 7K for a WEEKend in '89 not a day. Even if that were per day back then, in todays market, based upon inflation that would still be about $23,000 per weekend not 56K.

The $7,000 was per day!

[rickb99]

LOL okay. So then 25,000 or 30,000 a weekend would still be well above the inflation rate over that period. 56,000 a weekend means it's been huge increase.

That would probably be okay if there were 600 car fields. But road racers per capita have not gone up with the birth rate. Are we spending too much time racing and not enough time birthing? I guess instead of complaining about the cost of racing on the Forum, we should be in the bedroom doing........

[Mark H]

When I was a kid (last week) I sorta ranked sanctioning body's in my head by order of importance using say this ...how many big races, coolest cars, speed and drivers. 1.USAC 2.F1 3. NASCAR and WOW 4.SCCA a group I'm proud to say I drive with. Be it only on a Reg level(4 now ) and not pro, its still a big deal to me!!! & worth it!!!!

As Charles says its the insurance that runs up the price, and with fans bang, even more insurance $$$$? I hate insurance anyway, take life insurance....are you insuring me that I'm never gonna die or at least if I never miss a payment?

Some of the newer tracks down south are kinda high priced, but Road Atlanta last weekend was only $200 vs $175 6 yrs ago, or maybe $150?

The only good fan turn outs that Ive seen were at MO for the Runoffs.Some of the Rovals will get a 100 or so only because they can see all the action. But sports car racing in general has kept the paddock open to the fans in an attempt to gain/keep their interest.

I know a little off subject but having done both I think that we have got it good!! Because when we wake up on Sunday marning WE GET TO RACE FORMULA CARS!!!!!!!!!!!!

[LolaT440]

I get a little offended at the comment of "what actions will you take" to address the high fees with SCCA.

If I could volunteer and work on promotion and advertising I would do it in a second. But my personal issues why I can not are my business.

FRCCA is the best. More track time for the money. And just like the SCCA they are a great bunch of guys. If I could run with them more I would. My racing is limited to CT right now.

I really think everyone should do one race a year with FRCCA, just to support that club. They work really hard to cater to Formula Cars.

[RussMcB]

I apologize. I was trying to think of ways to phrase my message so it wouldn't be overly offensive, but I know I fell short.

The point I was trying to make was, it takes a lot of work to make changes. Therefore, if you cannot commit your own resources to make changes (for whatever reasons), you have no choice but to accept things the way they are and simply decide if it is worth the money or not. Things got the way they are after many years and many different influences. My hunch is that if anyone had the time to investigate, there would be acceptable reasons for the level of current entry fees.

So, how would you answer that question? :-)

[ghoneycutt]

"I really think everyone should do one race a year with FRCCA, just to support that club. They work really hard to cater to Formula Cars."

Now that you mention it, remaining 2007 chedule is on the FRCCA.com homepage.

up next-

9/1/07- Race #7 - Day 1 of the Fastmaster - 1.1 mile Road Course - Pocono International Raceway - Pocono, PA

9/2/07- Race #8 - Day 2 of the Fastmaster - 1.5 mile Sweeper - Pocono International Raceway - Pocono, PA

y'all come!

[J.D. King]

Cost of track rental, insurance, ambulances, feeding workers, tow trucks, track cleaning/clean up, etc., divided by number of participants = entry fee.

The host region, or "club", IMO, is supposed to operate an amatuer race on a break even strategy, but will hopefully make enough money on a race weekend to pay for maintainence and upkeep of radios, timimg equipment, etc.

As the chairman for the Pocono National, I can tell you that we work very hard to keep entry fees low while still treating the workers and volunteers right.

I've already paid my $325 for Lime Rockand I'll be there supporting the NNJR and the NEC because it is important enough that I feel my money is well spent there. I know NNJR will be taking a huge hit in the wallet on this upcoming race, but I guarantee that the powers that be will not skimp on the social aspect as a result.

[FWSchroeder]

i always enjoy reading these long threads and replies that take so many directions MANY good points are always missed.

What i took from this mess [and what i believe started this thread] was that on September 1st 2007, i can spend "90 minutes" on Pocono North for $245.00 then the next day i can spend "90 minutes" on Pocono South for $245.00. It doesn't matter if i have a FV, FF, FC or FA [or even a tin top, hope the Mazda guys don't find this thread] and they will accept any current license. That's cheaper than any regional, national or test day fee, Period.

On a personal note, Mr. Pugliese and FRCCA [RCCA] were directly responsible for my involvement, enjoyment and continued participation in Racing. When after doing my scca drivers school [i was in high school] i realized i didn't have enough money to pay all the scca memberships, license fee's, entry fee's and on and on and have enough for tires i found RCCA was running at my home track and joined him while everybody else went to The Glen for a Regional. Mr. Pugliese's vision and goal is to provide a "SAFE, Competitive, Family Friendly environment for NEW COMERS and Veterans to enjoy their hobby/sport of choice" and not over through any other organization .

My Personal Opinion: scca has become a business and looks to cut your Track Time if your group is to small and not profitable, i seem to recall a really long thread here about Wings in scca. FRCCA Remains a "Club Dedicated to it's Members".

In Closing, i very recently heard from a good friend about his trials and tribulations at a event. He was complaining about the Stewart's, The Entry Fee's versus Track Time and on and on. Wouldn't it be nice to go to an event were you were Welcome and woke up Monday only talking about the fun you had. I do after running with FRCCA.

Thanks, Fred

[DanW]

Everything is relative...

A NASA event in Northern California... HDPE is $159, Race Group is $299

https://www.nasaproracing.com/nasa_e.../?event_id=467

The end of day social mudslides made on a weedwacker powered blender are quite good.

Thunderhill street school is $245 for 1 day with instruction

Cost of SCCA regionals were covered previously. 3 Day Drivers School is $570.

How about going to WATCH??

Monterey Hysterics.... $125!!! for 3 days.

Pebble Beach Concours $150 for the day.

http://www.laguna-seca.com/Events/index.cfm?EventID=20

Monterey Sports Car Championships... $55 3 day ticket.

http://www.laguna-seca.com/Tickets/i...ets&EventID=21

Decent field level seats at AT&T Ballpark, SF. $37 to $60

I am old enough to remember $50 entry fees to Riverside for Cal Club events, but I was only making $2.30/hour.

[LolaT440]

So who is going to LRP? for 325? I sold a kidney yesterday, so I'll be there on the 10th.

I'll do my best to make an RCCA race. I missed Thompson because my gearbox was a little tired.

Everyone has a billion reasons why not to race with the FRCCA. But everyone that does has a good time and a good battle with someone, either in the back, middle or front.

[stonebridge20]

So who is going to LRP? for 325? I sold a kidney yesterday, so I'll be there on the 10th.

I'll do my best to make an RCCA race. I missed Thompson because my gearbox was a little tired.

Everyone has a billion reasons why not to race with the FRCCA. But everyone that does has a good time and a good battle with someone, either in the back, middle or front.

Joe,...That's a damn shame! 77 posts and a kidney later, you CAN'T do the LRP race on the 10th! You'll never get a medical waiver in time!

Agnif

[Racinggrl1]

It took me a little while to get through the 77 posts...

I have been crew for SCCA teams, SCCA Pro teams, IMSA teams and most recently a driver of a formula car with FRCCA.

When I crewed I didnt worry bout the cost.. as long as I had food, a car to work on and somewhere to sleep I was happy.

Now I drive, and I have to worry about the entry fee, the gas, the lodging and feeding my crew.

I have been told by many of my competitors that I have improved in leaps and bounds as far as driving goes, and I attribute that to having 100 minutes of track time every race day and enough sessions and competitors to continue to play and learn constantly.

I have participated in the 12 month budet plan at FRCCA (for the 3rd year now). I made all the races the last 2 seasons, my car held up (even with all of that track time on it!), and I saved a load of money over the people who paid race by race. I have the schedule in January and I work my committments around it once I decided to run the complete season. refund wasnt an issue. This year I signed up for the year budget plan and discussed with AJ the prospect of needing to downgrade to the 6 month plan if the schedule changed due to work/OT situation and he was very accomodating. So far I havent needed to, but its there.

The "car payment" I make every month to race allows me to run the whole season. I buy one set of tires at $650 for the season, and the expenses of each weekend (gas, food) I pay as I go. We do alot of camping and crashing on friends living room floors this year, but I have made it work because I want to.

As for the track selection.. all the clubs in the NE are struggling with where to go play. If its asphalt and has lefts and rights, I will go, regardless of the length or reputation, its not the track that makes the racing, its the participants! Sure I want to go to WG or LRP, and I do so with another club that offers that (when enough cars like mine participate).

I enjoy the racing community, whereever it is... this is where I choose to race and hope that others will just be open minded, and if its something you want to try, dont worry about the peer pressure around which club it is you choose to go and enjoy your race car with.

[sc94]

"...that on September 1st 2007, i can spend "90 minutes" on Pocono North for $245.00 then the next day i can spend "90 minutes" on Pocono South for $245.00. "

I'm not positive but I believe if you register 10 days prior to the event you can run both days for $400.

Kirk