Entry Fees too high

[GeoffRain]

[quote=LolaT440;145858]So who is going to LRP? for 325? quote]

I'll be there. Trading the hotel room for sleeping in the trailer will make my entry fee hurt a little less. And it will make the beer party last longer.

Geoff

[Michael Rand]

Actually the FF/CF/NCF etry forLime Rock August 10-11 is getting close to a total of 20 1600 cars.
The online registration shows 15 and I know of at least 3 others coming who are not listed online.

One question which I have never gotten an answer to:
What is FRCCA's [or EMRA's, FPR's, NASA's, etc etc etc] Participant Accident insurance coverage ?
Not the usual track required $5Mil Liability, but if you wad up your toy and are seriously injured, what medical coverage do you as a participant have ? Or the trailer falls on a crew person, same question. Anyone who signs the release as a participant will be covered, driver or not, for the duration of the event at the event.
Doesn't take much these days to rack up gigantic hospital bills, does it ? And if you are under the impression your personal health insurance will pick it up, think again. There are exclusions for any "dangerous sport, as defined bythe insurance industry, things like racing anything, on land, water, in the air, scuba diving, sky diving, etc etc .
I have asked several people involved with the "fringe", my word, as non-SCCA mainstream, racing oranizations and have never gotten a definitive answer.
I am prepared to be corrected but the simple fact is what we do can and does result in serious injury and the ACCUS member clubs and organizations, of which SCCA is one, are all under a $1Mil Excess Medical policy. Excess as in when any other insurance refuses the claim this policy kicks in. Even $1Mil medical isn't all that much these days but it is a safety net of substantial size.

[LolaT440]

I don't know. There is insurance, it is probably not as high as SCCA just because of the size or the club.

I guess I would say I cut corners or roll-the-dice on the insurance. I should be more aware.

As for Mike, I AM going on the 10th and 11th. You should blow the dust off that clapped out crate you call a FF and drive at LRP on the 10th or 11th. Maybe you're a little scared the Lola will have a little to much steam under the hood for you?

[Tom Sprecher]

Cost of track rental, insurance, ambulances, feeding workers, tow trucks, track cleaning/clean up, etc., divided by number of participants = entry fee.

The host region, or "club", IMO, is supposed to operate an amatuer race on a break even strategy, but will hopefully make enough money on a race weekend to pay for maintainence and upkeep of radios, timimg equipment, etc.

As the chairman for the Pocono National, I can tell you that we work very hard to keep entry fees low while still treating the workers and volunteers right.

I've already paid my $325 for Lime Rockand I'll be there supporting the NNJR and the NEC because it is important enough that I feel my money is well spent there. I know NNJR will be taking a huge hit in the wallet on this upcoming race, but I guarantee that the powers that be will not skimp on the social aspect as a result.

The racing region typically runs on a break even basis. You guys should once work at producing an event or go to a race chair meeting and look at the books for your region so you could see the expenses incurred which have to be paid. It would explain alot.

A large racing region that hosts several events a year uses the additional entry fee charged for a double weekend to offset the possible poor turnout at single race weekends. The expenses are about the same but the income is reduced. It's either that or charge a fee to exit the track to cover the difference.

As for the examples of other organizations charging less if you took the time to compare apples to apples you would see why they can be cheaper. They either skimp on services, you get less track time due to the expenses spread over more cars entered or fewer groups with bigger fields. One friend compared it to running his FC on I-285 around Atlanta. You wanna run with tintops?

[Michael Rand]

I AM one of the 15+ already entered.....along with JD King, Todd bardwell, Rod Kendall, etc etc etc..
Want another set of used 600's ?

[LolaT440]

In case I get a flat or something

[sc94]

I received this response from FRCCA when I presented them with Michael Rand's question about insurance. If anyone has any other questions or would like more details about the insurance, I'd encourage you to contact AJ directly at the number below.

"Kirk, What the FRCCA has is very different policy; we have a one million dollar policy PER incident, NOT accumulative. THEREFORE, ANY number of accidents and each would have the full One million dollar coverage. In addition, our weekly loss of pay is 50% higher than required. Yours for the Sport, AJ

Also please be advised that if you or other participants have policies that exclude you from coverage while racing, there are insurance companies out there, if you watch a televised race, they will advertise this type of insurance and welcome racers to inquire about their coverage’s."


AJ Pugliese
FRCCA
1-304-725-4644
www.frcca.com

[racer27]

Kirk -

Thanks for obtaining the answer. I was going to ask the question myself... I think it would be benificial of the club (In fact all clubs) to post this info on their web sites as insurance should be one of those things being factored into your racing decision.

See you in Sept @ Pocono

[Michael Rand]

Just make sure Buddy is talking about Participant Accident, medical insurance, not Liability.
If FRCCA has $1M PA, even per accident, that is great and far more than many others.
And the payment he says is 50% higher than required cinfuses me, required by who ? That benefit can be anything the insured wants, $75/week for 26 weeks, $125/week for 52 weeks, whatever is chosen and can be affordable to the party buying the policy. What requirement dictated by who is a reasonable question.

[rickb99]

OMG.. we've gone from trying to figure out how to reduce entry fees (a few suggestions in the first 2 pages) to examining the fine print in insurance policy's? I believe, regardless of the maximum amount, the SCCA medical coverage is 'over and above your personal medical insurance coverage'. Are you racing without medical insurance????? The additional coverage is 'nice' but if needed your in really, really deep stuff.

I'd be more inclined to look and see if your own policy has a motor sports exclusion clause.

[anthonywill3]

I AM one of the 15+ already entered.....along with JD King, Todd bardwell, Rod Kendall, etc etc etc..
Want another set of used 600's ?

Mike:
I will be making my first trip to LRP (to race that is) next weekend... Is there electric in the paddock, or am I bringing the generator?
tx,
Tony

[Michael Rand]

Definately bring the generator, extremely limited power, like maybe 4 outlets in the entire place.

And here's a reality check boys and girls: Entry fees are not going down, not this year, not next, not in our careers. Suck it up and admit it, racing is expensive. It is not for everyone, as has been previously mentioned in this thread. It never was, it never will be.
And if you do not know the details of the Participant Accident Insurance in place when you race then you can not complain about the costs if and when you ever get injured.
Ask the event chair, the series organizer, the Region RE or Comp Chair, the owner of the "Club" you are racing with, and look at the policy.

Rickb99, ain't it great that we have this forum to enlighten and discuss ?

I have been in the business or managing, organizing, working for sanctioning bodies [IMSA, SVRA] and operating race series and events for almost 30 years and it never fails to amaze me that the great majority of racers have no idea what the conditions are under which they compete.
As the adults used to say, "It's all fun till someone gets a stick in the eye....".

[stonebridge20]

As for Mike, I AM going on the 10th and 11th. You should blow the dust off that clapped out crate you call a FF and drive at LRP on the 10th or 11th. Maybe you're a little scared the Lola will have a little to much steam under the hood for you?

BITCH SLAP ! Ouch !

Joe, have fun at the "Park" without me. It's too close to the Pocono national for me. I will take you up on the "challange" if you show up for the NARRC Runoffs. Hell,...I'll even give you a few FREE lessons if you show up!

Agnif

[Bill Steele]

I think most of the people I know racing cars as a hobby can afford their habit.

That is not to say that occasionally there isn’t someone else in the household that views the expenditures associated with the hobby as excessive, but those are clearly matters of opinion and invariably selfish, mean spirited and narrow minded in nature.

[stonebridge20]

As the adults used to say, "It's all fun till someone gets a stick in the eye....".

Now listen to Rand here boys and girls. I poked myself in the eye today with my motorcycle key and it's NO FUN ! It's a good thing I had my protective contact lenses in, which shot out of my eye and landed in the dirt at the Subway parking lot. Yea, you think it's funny. You try riding a R6 Yamaha with one eye closed and a 6" turkey Sub in one hand through Connecticut lunch hour traffic! I'm just glad I didn't poke myself with a STICK!

Agnif

[John Heckman]

It seems to me that no one is right and no one is wrong with all of these threads. I have worked on race cars both as a hobby and as a professional for a certain German based factory team with their Indy car efforts. I have also raced karts and for the last 8 years formula cars. I race with the FRCCA and it is within my budget and is less expensive than running a full season in a competitve (key word) kart. There appears to be different levels of racing no matter what type of "club" you are in. The gap between the levels is what I look at. Cubic dollars while a fact of our sport does not make you a better driver competition does. I have never raced with the SCCA it always seemed to be too political to me from what I read and heard. And too expensive to be and stay competitive The gap between levels also seems to be way to large to me (haves to have nots). I took offense to a very early thread that said something to the effect that it doesn't matter if it $300 or $400 dollars for an entry. It does matter because grass roots is what supports the sport. No matter the "club" the management needs to keep that in mind. If the middle class American person can not afford it, it will eventually die off. Being deeply rooted in the FRCCA I see the efforts that go into trying to make the CLUB work and be more affordable. Those of you who talked about car count need to ask yourself a question if you had more cars would the cost go down. With the FRCCA I believe that if we could get full fields it would ... why because the club is surrviving with the low car counts and because the management has made that promise. Now realizing that external costs (tracks, insurance etc.) are not going down it may not be much but there is hope there. You can not just look at the entry costs for racing you also need to look at the cost of maintainence etc. The FRCCA spec classes address that. For those who wish to continue running pure SCCA Fords there is that class available too, as well as all other formula cars classes that show up. I would also like to perhaps put the FRCCA club atmosphere into perspective. Several drivers have had family crisis this season and the club has gotten together and helped them. The club is not based upon pure competition, which there is plenty of, in my own case I just ran wheel to wheel for 25 laps with another driver and lost by less than 1/2 second. Competition and driver ability is definitely there. But the greatest complement a driver can get is praise from his fellow drivers and that is the highest award given in the FRCCA ... the award for SPORTSMANSHIP. You see the club is people based not system or organizationally. Perhaps if you want to get to Indy or F1 it isn't the right road for you, although we have had our share of Pros come out of the club. Now I know many of yoou are going to pick this apart it the nature of the beast so go ahead.

[Dennis McCarthy]

While Apexspeed is hands down the greatest resource available in North America for club open wheel racers, I get a chuckle from some of the posts and often wonder about the guys who complain the loudest about entry fees, rules, and the volunteers that put on our race events. It would be interesting to know how many races annually do they actually participate in? I wonder if they have ever volunteered to help out at an event, or give back a bit of time to support our hobby, even once?
Regardless of club affiliation, who has ever attended once attended a club meeting to voice concerns or to question why entry fees are what they are? Maybe taking a single evening out of the entire year and sitting in on a regional meeting might give a whole new perspective on how the volunteers who make it possible for us all to do what we love so much arrive at the decisions they do. It seems like the drivers who have actually worked at making a difference don't complain too much. Apathy certainly won't lower the cost of racing any time soon.

[Bill Steele]

While Apexspeed is hands down the greatest resource available in North America for club open wheel racers, I get a chuckle from some of the posts and often wonder about the guys who complain the loudest about entry fees, rules, and the volunteers that put on our race events. It would be interesting to know how many races annually do they actually participate in? I wonder if they have ever volunteered to help out at an event, or give back a bit of time to support our hobby, even once?
Regardless of club affiliation, who has ever attended once attended a club meeting to voice concerns or to question why entry fees are what they are? Maybe taking a single evening out of the entire year and sitting in on a regional meeting might give a whole new perspective on how the volunteers who make it possible for us all to do what we love so much arrive at the decisions they do. It seems like the drivers who have actually worked at making a difference don't complain too much. Apathy certainly won't lower the cost of racing any time soon.

Amen brother.

[John Nesbitt]

While Apexspeed is hands down the greatest resource available in North America for club open wheel racers, I get a chuckle from some of the posts and often wonder about the guys who complain the loudest about entry fees, rules, and the volunteers that put on our race events. It would be interesting to know how many races annually do they actually participate in? I wonder if they have ever volunteered to help out at an event, or give back a bit of time to support our hobby, even once?
Regardless of club affiliation, who has ever attended once attended a club meeting to voice concerns or to question why entry fees are what they are? Maybe taking a single evening out of the entire year and sitting in on a regional meeting might give a whole new perspective on how the volunteers who make it possible for us all to do what we love so much arrive at the decisions they do. It seems like the drivers who have actually worked at making a difference don't complain too much. Apathy certainly won't lower the cost of racing any time soon.

Spot on.

[thunderracing91]

I really dont understand the high entry fee either. I use to road race shifterkarts at BHF, Gateway, IRP, Grattan, Road America, etc etc etc. The entry fees would vary from $125-$175 depending on each track. That included 2 days of racing and pit passes. Is the insurance for having the SCCA cars that much more or am I missing something? The karts are renting the same tracks as us but somehow manage to have really cheap entry fees? I know the karters had a lot less members in that organization than SCCA

Andrew

[D.T. Benner]

I think Bill knows my wife?

[Charles Warner]

I really dont understand the high entry fee either. I use to road race shifterkarts at BHF, Gateway, IRP, Grattan, Road America, etc etc etc. The entry fees would vary from $125-$175 depending on each track. That included 2 days of racing and pit passes. Is the insurance for having the SCCA cars that much more or am I missing something? The karts are renting the same tracks as us but somehow manage to have really cheap entry fees? I know the karters had a lot less members in that organization than SCCA

Andrew

Andrew,

Before simply looking at the straight cost you need to be sure you are comparing oranges to oranges. A detailed examination of insurance, medical requirements, facilities, wrecker requirements, security issues, concessions, etc. might prove enlightening. Also, some facilities, and even regions/divisions, view certain events and/or organizations as loss leaders with the intent of making up some of the loss on other events.

[Michael Rand]

They also used to get literally hundreds of entries for the kart races, I remember wen I was based at Rd America for Skip Barber Racing and there was a huge WKA, I guess, weekend with like 500 entries.
That sure helps ease the load on each individual entrant.
Dividing the "nut" by 200 or even fewer entrants is a lot different than 300 plus.

[tonyc]

Don't forget the bottom line folks... This is America and the name of the game in America is MONEY. Those who can get as much as they can get will find a way to get more... if it's the price of gasoline, or the price of you medication you need to keep you alive, or whatever. If they have the supply and you want it, they will demand a price proportional to how badly you want it.

It's not fair, but it's American.

[Larry]

...if there was so much profit to be made, there would be more tracks under construction! We now have 300 million people, yet we have just a handful of race tracks (when compared with England and Europe). Whenever someone talks about possibly opening a new track, the tree-huggers get involved and make the deal almost impossible.

I'd suggest that you ask your region where the money goes. The DC Region typically turns out 250+ for a regional race, which most would find a large number, yet our break-even point is pretty high. The money goes for track rental, insurance, sanctioning, etc. When I started racing (about 40 years ago), a typical entry was $65. It's now almost 3x that number. The price of a new car has gone up about 8x. The minimum wage has gone up 5x. Entry fees are, in comparison, a bargain. I'd much rather see something done to lower the cost of engines/rebuilds. Better yet, I'd rather see a $25K Formula Ford--but that's a dream.

Larry Oliver
International Racing Products

[Jim Garry]

Agree with Larry on all points. I remember reading Mad Magazine as a kid and this one cartoon sticks in my mind. An owner is walking around his place of business and listening to all sorts of multi-million dollar deals going down; some of them shaky. He says nothing to anyone.

Then he walks past a receptionist who is throwing away paperclips that came with some mail. He screams at her about wasting the company's money. As he walks away, a VP asks him why he got so angry at the receptionist. He replies, "multi-million dollar amounts I can't get a grasp on. But those were damn good 5 cent paperclips she was throwing out.


Jim

[tonyc]

It's not the sanctioning bodies I have a problem with (for the most part). It's the other BS to which the sanctioning bodies are held hostage, ie, Insurance companies, lawyers & track owners to name a few.

Look at what it costs to rent Lime Rock. With the amount of money they charge, do you think they could spend a little to improve the track surface? Now they are selling "LRP Club" memberships for $110K each. I wonder how many new yachts that money will buy, and how much will actually go into the track?