What is YOUR conversion to F1000 costing you?

[Richard Dziak]

Now that we are deep into the F1000 program, with new cars such as Stohr, Phoenix, Piper etc. My question is:

For those that are converting older VD's over to F1000, like Sean who has already completed his car, Russ McB who is very close and a few others, WHAT IS YOUR, or WHAT WAS YOUR COST TO CONVERT from VD to F1000.

Was the cost what you expected?

Did you spend MORE than you thought?

Did you spend LESS than you thought.

I think that this may be a good thread for those considering conversion, and a few others that may be in the process of converting to F1000. I have spoken to many VD owners considering conversion, but they are very unsure of costs and manhours used to complete the build.

[RussMcB]

I haven't really been keeping track, so I can't give you an accurate number for my project, I think it'll be around $7,000 - $8,000, after deducting for old drivetrain sales. Included in those numbers is zero dollars for my labor.

Yes, there have been some costs that I didn't anticipate.

Those VD owners you mention considering conversions - will they do the work themselves or hire someone? I think the cost difference between those two options could be big.

I'm interested to hear the cost of the Novak conversion.

[Richard Dziak]

Russ...one of the fellows has teared his 98VD apart.....already sold the engine ($2500). He will most likely buy the Novak conversion kit, but Jay Novak has not announced the price yet, and the 98VD owner will do most of the work himself. He is having a hard time selling off the components. Seems like a glut of parts may be out there for VD-FC's.

If you can complete the conversion for just $7m to $8M that seems to be a real steal. I realize that you have your own time into the project, but for an $8,000 investment that seems reasonable.

Will be interesting to hear what other conversions are running. Seems that there are muliple opinions on costs to convert old to new.

[RussMcB]

As you eluded to, there are a LOT of options and variables. I think I will end up with a great car for a very reasonable investment, but, on the other hand, I am missing a full season of racing and spending many hours during evenings and weekends. It's been a great learning experience, but I'd rather be racing. If the Novak conversion can really be bolted on in a couple of weekends and the cost is reasonable, I think that would be the way to go if you have the money for it.

I think it's interesting that I've heard of more than one person who has committed to the Novak conversion without (I assume) knowing the cost.

[RobLav]

And I committed to building an entire car without knowing the price too!

The way I figured it, with all this free market economy stuff, the costs are going to be pretty close between competitors anyway. So then you have to consider the rest of the factors in choosing the supplier.

I think Jay is going to be using the new ICP diffs that Richard is making. I expect to be getting mine fairly soon.

[Mike B]

It's been a great learning experience, but I'd rather be racing.

You and I are living parallel lives. With each passing day with no racing I get more and more frustrated, especially with the June Sprints just days away . But, as you said, I hope to have a good car that has the potential to be a great car with some development, at an extremely reasonable cost. The thing is, it's MY car and I can modify/remove/add anything I want reasonably because I've built almost everything from the cockpit back (and some things forward.)

So, what will it cost? It's not done yet so this isn't a final number but most of the big-ticket items are bought and paid for so it's close.
I bought a used, damaged RF93 that was missing 3 corners in early 2005. Fortunately, I kept 3 corners-worth of spares from the RF95 I sold in 2004, along with some wheels and misc. other non-FC-specific bits. The wrecked car also came with some decent spares that were sold along with the FC parts from the car. Big items were the engine, gearbox, spare Ivey head, ring & pinion, oil pump, gearsets, and other 2.0L engine parts.
The total of sold parts comes up to just under $10k, and I still have a bellhousing and input shaft to sell, among other things. This is significantly more than I paid for the package so I consider it well-bought.
So far, the major expenses have been raw material and machining labor for our proprietary diff and subframe assembly. The engine would be in this category but it was "donated" to the project from an interested benefactor. It cost him $1800 about 5 years ago ('99 R1).
At this point in the project, my total outlay is just under $1000 ($2800 if you figure in the engine.)
Remaining big-ticket items (off the top of my head) are: shock rebuild ($300), paint ($500ish, unless I do it myself), wheel bearings ($400), maybe wings (if I don't finish building my own.)
Big things left to do that will have a big cost in time but not money:
engine cover/scoop, left side pod, wings, paint, wiring, plumbing, brake system, and a thousand other little things that I can't think of right now.

I consider myself lucky in that I got a good deal on the RF93, still had bits from the RF95, and sold FC pieces at the right time. Be cautious about inflating the value of engines and gearboxes when figuring how much you could sell off those parts to fund your conversion. There are some good 2.0L engines for sale elsewhere on Apexspeed for less than I sold my used engine for. With both Zetec and F1000 conversions in progress, there may be a glut of 2.0L engines with the commensurate price drop. There may also be a flood of LD200s in the market and I'd be surprised if you can get $1000 for one. I'm always surprised when bellhousings sell and not surprised that I still have one .

Finally, I think my total outlay for this project is lower than most because we've fabricated so much, including the entire differential, which has saved us thousands .

I'm curious to see where finished car values end up once this class really takes off. I'd love to have a new Phoenix but I think I can continue to develop this car to stay (or become) competitive. Look what Dave W. has done with a 12 year old car!

[Nicholas Belling]

Sure is alot of patience you have to have for all the time and waiting with no racing.. But in the end I am sure you will be happy you went through that phase in your life doing it your way.. You will definetly be an extension of your race car while drivng it now.

[Richard Dziak]

The input here ref "Cost of Your Conversion" has been very helpful to those considering converting an older VD to F1000. The straight forward responses and candidness on the costs will be very helpful to others who are considering a conversion. If they can sell off the older parts in lieu of the F1000 components as showen by these posts, more racers are apt to convert, thus making the field of F1000 even greater, which is a plus for all. Those racers that are presently converting certainly have made a committment to the class. Those end unit turn-key manufactuers like Phoenix and Strohr, have also made major committments to this class and certainly their efforts are most welcome. As we get thru 2007, it is expected that only more F1000's will emerge. The main thurst of our group here and across the country is certainly develop a National Class for the SCCA Championships. Since ARRC is already expected to run the group, that will be the first test for the F1000 class and a good field of cars. A national Champion will be crowned. That will be history in itself.

Hopefully we will be able to continue to get good insights and responses to this thread in an effort to inform and really give a true picture of what the costs related to converting the older VD's to F1000 is like. It would be nice to hear from Carnut 169 to find out what type of end costs and total cost to convert his F1000 beauty, since he is off and running and has a fully completed car. I realize some racers may not want to discuss finances. While some individuals will be able to afford a state of the art, new F1000 project, like Phoenix or Stohr, many racers who enter this class will be forced to convert.

Lets make an effort to keep them all informed of the costs related to the converts to F1000. It will only add to the number of cars over time. Once Jay Novak makes a final decision on pricing of his comversion kit, that too will help many racers. I know of several FC VD racers that are eagerly awaiting an announcement to the cost of the Novak Kit, so that they can consider a conversion project to F1000.

It's all very exciting.

[Mike B]

It would be nice to hear from Carnut 169 to find out what type of end costs and total cost to convert his F1000 beauty, since he is off and running and has a fully completed car.

See post #184 of this thread:
http://www.apexspeed.com/forums/show...3966#post83966

[Dennis Tapp]

I have been watching the F1000 post for the last two years. I called Pat Prince two years ago and ask about putting a 1300cc Suzuki in a 92 F2000 VD. I bought it in boxes for $6000. from a guy getting a divorce. I wanted to run it in at my local track (Hallett) in non SCCA events, they have a run what you brung class. At my age I am racing for grins and giggles. I was racing a DB-4 and it was the best grins and giggles in the world. But after engine work the giggles were gone. Pat told me about this F1000 movement and suggested I use a 1000cc engine. Sold off all the parts I did not need and had $1900 left in the car. I looked at what everyone was doing and did not want to become an engineer. Pat's VDR conversion for DSR would make a trouble free car but would have complications with the rear body work. That seemed like a better choice for me trying to stay at a $18000. budget. I figured the new cars would be out dated faster than my 92 with the way changes were in the DSR class.

Not being in a hurry because of other racing vices, I got in line at Pat's place for the conversion. I knew it would run up my cost having Pat do the rear engine install but I figured it would be better that having someone fix my screw ups. I can bolt everthing together and plum the car. After pulling the wings out of the boxes I decided not to use bondo and had Pat make a new front wing, nose box and rear wing. (added $3000). I am using a spool from Beasley ($1000), being a old go kart guy I thought it would be a good way to go until I thought that was the reason I am slow. 2005 Suzuki, wire harness and pan for $3500. I have spent $19500 to date. $3000 in labor and the $3000. wings made me go over my first budget. The car is a lot nicer than if I tried to weld it together. You can buy the kit and install it yourself to save money. It will only fit 91 thru 96 VD (no Swift or Renards)

My new budget is $22000. if I can fix the body work myself. In my mind I really am prepared for $24000. Only things I have left to purchase are shock and brake rebuilds. Also the little extra nut and bolts. I had Pat figure out the shifting, clutch and throttle hardware.

I have attached a few pictures of the car in Pat's shop. I picked it up last week in Sterling. We had to take it apart to fit in my Suburban. I think the VD conversion will be the best bang for the buck when it come to grins and giggles. Dennis

[RussMcB]

Looks like it's going to be a beautiful car!

[Mike B]

Dennis,
Is that belly pan one continuous piece of metal that sticks out 1+ foot on each side?
If it is, you might want to consider cutting it down to about 1" and bolting the floors on.
The RF93 I bought had been rolled by the previous owner. It had a stainless pan similar to the one in your pics but one side was bent down at about a 20 degree angle. My theory is that the car got sideways into the dirt and the edge of the pan dug in and catapulted the car into a barrel roll. Whatever bent the pan, it took a heck of a lot of force. I had to lay it over the curb in front of my house and drive over it with my truck to get it close to flat again. (no, I didn't reuse it. I just wanted it as a reference pattern for the new one.)

Otherwise, the car looks great and Pat's work is top-notch as usual. I hope you'll consider making your way to Cendiv for the June Sprints!

[Dennis Tapp]

Mike, Pat left the floor for me to cut so I could have many options depending on side pods and body work. He left the film on the aluminum so I could paint the frame without masking. I do not like powdercoat. Trying to figure out the rear body work. Weld mounting tabs, etc. so I can paint the frame. Dennis

[Mike B]

Mike, Pat left the floor for me to cut so I could have many options depending on side pods and body work. He left the film on the aluminum so I could paint the frame without masking. I do not like powdercoat. Trying to figure out the rear body work. Weld mounting tabs, etc. so I can paint the frame. Dennis

That's a good plan. My suggestion: don't paint the frame until you're ready to leave for the track. The minute you paint it, you'll find something else that needs to be welded to it. I understand that it can be quite frustrating after having the chassis powdercoated...

[Tom Hope]

Mike, I saw that car roll at Buttonwillow..