up-ing the ante

[Daryl DeArman]

With the constant evolution, if you will, of the 1L bike motor technology, looks like there is a new HP leader in Production 1000cc motorcycles.

The MV Agusta F41000r 312 makes 183HP at 12,400rpm according to the June2007 Cycle World that I got in the mail today.

This isn't a bike you are likely to see in the salvage yard, or a motor you'll find on ebay. But the bike is expected to retail in the $25K range. Get out your checkbooks and do it quickly, only 150 units expected to be produced.

[John LaRue]

A certain Citation owner already has an Agusta in the shop.........

[GoPro]

A certain Citation owner already has an Agusta in the shop.........

Mmm...sounds swift. But would you WANT to be the one guy winning with a hot motor nobody else has? Tough call...I'd stick with the group and whoop ass with what's common so you'd know your driving did it.

But maybe I am just being totally naive!

[Charles Warner]

Mmm...sounds swift. But would you WANT to be the one guy winning with a hot motor nobody else has? Tough call...I'd stick with the group and whoop ass with what's common so you'd know your driving did it.

But maybe I am just being totally naive!

So, you are saying one should not use the rules to the fullest to go as fast as is legally possible????

Not a tough call at all.

[D.T. Benner]

How much money do you have?? (F1000 style)

[P. Howarth]

$15k for the car
$25k for the bike
$10k to make it all fit
Sell the pinto parts of the car for 2-5k$
Sell the bike roller to the crash crowd 10k$

or
$5k for a GSXR1000 motor
$35 for a Storh, Speeds, Phoenix

I think it is just spending in a different place.

[Mike Devins]

Per George Dean the 07 GSXR made 176.6 - dead stock in the bike.

http://p081.ezboard.com/fdsrforumfrm...icID=814.topic

Air box and pipes would get you pretty close for a whole lot less money and with a motor with known durability and spares available.

[EACIII]

So you believe someone won't put a MV in a Storh, Speed, Phoenix with and air box, pipes etc. and make a 200 hp, $70,000 rocket ship? As stated already "how fast do you want to go, how much do you want to spend".

[RussMcB]

To some people, $70,000 is an unimagineable amount of money to spend on a hobby. To someone else, it's a drop in the bucket. Not much we can do about that.

[Jay N]

What will the Stohr owner with an MV engine do after the 1st engine failure?

Thanks ... Jay

[Wren]

a real man would design and machine his own engine/transmission and integrate it as a stressed member of the chassis(yes, it's been done).

[P. Howarth]

What will the Stohr owner with an MV engine do after the 1st engine failure?

Thanks ... Jay

Buy another bike and sell the parts he doesn't need.
I'm guessing it would be somewhere around $15-20k after all the hassle of getting rid of the bike parts. That is about what an Atlantic motor would cost.

Is 10 hp worth $10-15k? People spend close to that in DSR to get more out of their R1 or GSXR. The CSR crowd spends lots to turn their 1300 into a 14, 1500 cc motor. All of that is club racing.

My guess is that if the person wasn't winning races with that motor, they won't be all that likely to buy another. If they are winning, who knows?

Personally, I like the idea of a 3 year old gsxr motor in a FC conversion driven on the edge and beating the big buck machines.

[Daryl DeArman]

I like the idea of a 3 year old gsxr motor in a FC conversion driven on the edge and beating the big buck machines.

I think that most people like that idea too. However, all it takes is one better engineered package that is equally tuned and driven and we are racing for second.

Fortunately, it has been my experience in club racing that it is the exception to find both talent and a big budget. When you have both, you aren't likely to be club racing. So, I guess it all works out in the end. It is just a matter of degree...how much extra talent and experience do you have to offset the size of the other guys' wallet?

Again, I'd like to suggest to those involved in the class that they take a look at implementing a 5 year rule of some sort on the motor and perhaps minimum production units. For example, minimum 500 units sold in the US for the 2008-2012 season motors must be 2007 model year or older, 2013-2017 a 2012 model or older.

I raced in the CDCRA where we had a 2year old motor rule. It still created a motor to have every year, just one that was already 2 years old and perhaps more available. Freezing the motor every 5 years means that the same motor choice should be competitive for at least 5 years.

[timos]

And I thought this whole F1000 thing was to solve those pesky engine problems (i.e. the 1600 cost and availability).

Folks just swapped one set of issues for another.



tim

[RussMcB]

Again, I'd like to suggest to those involved in the class that they take a look at implementing a 5 year rule of some sort on the motor and perhaps minimum production units. For example, minimum 500 units sold in the US for the 2008-2012 season motors must be 2007 model year or older, 2013-2017 a 2012 model or older.

I raced in the CDCRA where we had a 2year old motor rule. It still created a motor to have every year, just one that was already 2 years old and perhaps more available. Freezing the motor every 5 years means that the same motor choice should be competitive for at least 5 years.

I like that idea. My VD RF94 chassis is being converted to accept an '04-'05 ZX10 engine. I have two of the engines. It would be nice if what I have can remain a bit more competitve for a longer time. Anything to keep the gap from widening between old/cheap and new/expensive sounds good to me.

[Wren]

And I thought this whole F1000 thing was to solve those pesky engine problems (i.e. the 1600 cost and availability).

Folks just swapped one set of issues for another.



tim

honestly, I doubt anyone is going to have this motor in their F1000, they would have to get someone to engineer the installation and I doubt that any of the manufacturers are hot to do that right now.

[Charles Warner]

honestly, I doubt anyone is going to have this motor in their F1000, they would have to get someone to engineer the installation and I doubt that any of the manufacturers are hot to do that right now.

Riiiiigggghhhtttt!

[Wren]

Riiiiigggghhhtttt!

care to tell me who is going to show up with it in their car?

Remember Lee said that John Hill broke one of his own records(set with a Loyning's engine) with a junkyard engine.

There are going to be years to develop these cars to the point that it will be worth it to drop $25k on an engine.

[John LaRue]

If you drive/own a Citation you are already "uncommon", the Agusta is not much of a stretch from there. Zoom zoom zoom.......

[Wren]

If you drive/own a Citation you are already "uncommon", the Agusta is not much of a stretch from there. Zoom zoom zoom.......

good point. You think Google will have directions to the nearest Agusta dealership? I'd better get two though, so I have a spare.

I'm sure Brandon and Steve won't mind changing up the drawings a little so someone can use an irreplaceable engine.

[Daryl DeArman]

No such thing as an irreplaceable engine, some are just harder to come by and a more expensive when you do. Besides, it doesn't have to be replaceable because by the time it does grenade there will be a different "motor to have".

Agreed, most people will go with the tried and true and will be quite successful with it. But to say that some won't spend big bucks for an advantage is ignorant. Again, thankfully most who do so are wasting their money because they can't utilize what they already have to its' fullest.

I guess it really comes down to what is at stake when one decides how $eriou$ they need to be with their effort. Look at 250 karting. Think Eddie Lawson and Wayne Rainey aren't getting a little help from Yamaha with their TZ effort? Sure most can go with a Rotax, or Yamaha TZ if they have the funds...but all it takes is a team to show up with a BRC.

The BRC is a GP bike/KART enigne (as is the TZ)...$18,500CAN but you do get 360HP/Liter (90HP from 250cc)! Do the F1000 rules limit the car to ONE motor?

Dear Santa: http://www.brceng.com/250fe.html

[Wren]

But to say that some won't spend big bucks for an advantage is ignorant.

you're probably right, look at all of the Agusta motors in xSR.


I'm more concerned about all of these rich guys hiring design teams and building entire engine/transmission combo's from scratch. Like this one:



Within a year, you won't be able to win in F1000 without a custom designed motor and transmission.

[Wren]

the best part is that it is legal, b/c the transaxle isn't licked by the airstream

[HastyHorn]

Let's not forget that Ducati has built a limited run of their MotoGP V-4 engine for public consumption...reportedly making 200 HP at the rear wheel. Regardless, I will be very surprised if either of these engines shows up in an F-1000 and instantly becomes competitive.

I've written the Comp Board recommending allowing Triples at an 1100cc parity to four cylinder 1000cc engines and Twins at 1200cc's for DSR use. I'd like to see that change (in DSR) just to have some variety of engines and exhaust sound....Triples sound so sweet. I can understand why they might not consider such a change for a new Formula venue.

Hasty Horn

[Daryl DeArman]

Love the sound of tripples as well...I happen to own a Sprint 1050. It doesn't make the power or the rpms the inline 4's do, but it sure is a nice ride!

You don't see the MV's or other less popular units in xSR because their rules are open enough to make more power with the Japanese stuff--the aftermarket support is there.

F1000 is dealing with stock motors which means that there are arguably, better options, and options that are in a state of flux.

I don't have a F1000, so what do I know? When I am an empty-nester maybe I will, depends on how the class has evolved.

[Lotus7]

sorry, "xSR" ???
thx

[P. Howarth]

sorry, "xSR" ???
thx

xSR = SCCA Classes ASR, CSR, DSR