2007 participation data

[Stan Clayton]

Year-to-date official participation...to be updated the first week of each month.

PDF Link

Stan

[JByers]

Pretty amazing that FA has more entries than FC or FF.

[VehDyn]

I agree about the FA numbers. Down here in the Southwest, we have a ton of Pro Formula Mazdas that run. We had a couple Swifts show up last race and I will see what happens this weekend. It would be interesting to see the split at the end of the year as to how many were Pro FM. Just for grins.

[Stan Clayton]

Yes, the FA data are very interesting. BTW, for the first time since 1983 FA is also ahead of FV. Too early to tell if that will hold for the rest of the year, but there does seem to have been a sizable influx of Pro Mazdas into Club racing. Maybe that is the source of the bump in FA participation. Stan

[Rob Howden]

Definitely a good sign for open wheel racing.

Four classes in the top-10 and six in the top-20, including FE (FSCCA), a newcomer. Formula 500 and Formula B will need to get on it. It's possible that FB simply won't have enough cars built to hit the top-26 to gain '08 entry, but F500 has the cars out there. They need to get together as a community and get back to the track.

I do find this all interesting, especially when they talk of consolidating formula car classes. Why would an organization risk damaging the open wheel classes when they make up four of the top-10 classes?

I'll be watching these PDFs like a hawk.

RH - FCM

[Stan Clayton]

Good point, Rob. Not only four formula classes in the top 10, but 3 sports racer classes there as well. With 7 of the top 10 classes from the F/SR ranks, it's clear that rumors of their demise are premature...

The talk about eventual consolidation is in response to continuing declines in several classes. FF has declined nearly 80% over the past 20 years, and so far this year is down again from last year in per race average (5.9 this year versus 6.3 last year). F5 is down sharply (63%) from last year and is well below the participation level required to maintain National status. FM is down a third from last year, and has declined nearly every year since 1999. FV is down nearly 20% from last year.

The BoD wants healthy classes that can maintain their numbers if not grow. When a class like FF stops growing and can't even hold onto its numbers the BoD starts asking questions. I think the biggest cause for concern in FF in particular is the lack of new cars coming into the class. We have homologated just one new FF a year for the past 5 years versus one new SM per day over the same time period. FV and FC are also down, but homologation of new cars is steady; the first indication those classes can recover their numbers.

As you note, FE is making up some of the losses in the formula ranks and I think is a shoe-in for the 2008 Runoffs. Some of those drivers came from FC, but lots also came from SRF, and a surprising number of first-timers in SCCA have bought the cars. I do not see FB making the grade for '08, but watch out for '09 as their numbers start making themselves felt. It takes a minimum of about 40 actively raced cars for a class to maintain its National status. So far about 20 FBs have been sold and there may be half a dozen more conversions in progress. It wouldn't take a huge leap in numbers from there for them to make their weight felt.

Regards, Stan

[TimW]

FF has declined nearly 80% over the past 20 years, and so far this year is down again from last year in per race average (5.9 this year versus 6.3 last year).

The interesting thing is though with just 3 divisions and SoPac being pretty terrible for formula cars nowadays, I would think that once CenDiv, NorEast & Great Lakes thaw, where the FF community is relatively strong, you may actually see it may actually be flat to slightly up (not SM strong, but on our graded curve we look like A- students). What was the FF avg through Mar 1 in 2006? That would be a more fair comparison. I'd suspect we're higher. What was the FF avg for Southwest & Southeast through Mar 1 last year? At 7.2 and the Road Atlanta National this month having 10 cars entered I'd say we're within the year over year noise to make it hard to really call the numbers rising or falling at this point & with this amount of data. F5 is outside the noise band clearly if the precincts reporting thus far are strong F5 divisions.

Don't get me wrong, I'd rather race with 30 cars instead of 7, and the 20 year view of the data is indeed not pretty, but I don't think a year over year comparison is fair at this (very snowy, damn it) point in the season.

[Stan Clayton]

Snow...wassat? We're expecting near 80 for our Double Natty next weekend.

Your points are well taken, Tim, which is why I noted the data as "so far". As you note, it is too early to draw definitive conclusions. However, such was not my purpose, but rather to illustrate to Rob why the BoD/CRB are concerned and are talking about possible consolidations. The long term trends are not good for several classes. Of course, this is nothing peculiar to the F/SR ranks. As the following graph from Bobby Lentz illustrates, a number of classes from other categories are in far worse shape...and believe me, there is plenty of talk about consolidation there as well.



The vertical line delineates the top 24 classes. The minimum required average to maintain National status is 2.5 entries per Naional.

Stan

[Rob Howden]

The talk about eventual consolidation is in response to continuing declines in several classes. FF has declined nearly 80% over the past 20 years, and so far this year is down again from last year in per race average (5.9 this year versus 6.3 last year). F5 is down sharply (63%) from last year and is well below the participation level required to maintain National status. FM is down a third from last year, and has declined nearly every year since 1999. FV is down nearly 20% from last year.

The BoD wants healthy classes that can maintain their numbers if not grow. When a class like FF stops growing and can't even hold onto its numbers the BoD starts asking questions. I think the biggest cause for concern in FF in particular is the lack of new cars coming into the class. We have homologated just one new FF a year for the past 5 years versus one new SM per day over the same time period. FV and FC are also down, but homologation of new cars is steady; the first indication those classes can recover their numbers.

Regards, Stan

Hi Stan,

Here's my position. When discussing any kind of drop in participation, I think the SCCA needs to look at the drop in ALL the classes before pin-pointing any particular class. They need to throw Spec Miata out of the comparison equation, because its growth can be very much attributed to its position as the 'in' thing right now. It's a cool class that is appealing to a certain number of people - it's the big attraction right now. Comparing the drop in any class to a rocket like SM is unfair...they need to be compared to the other classes.

Here's what I'd like to see as I am interested. From 2004-2005-2006, what is the percentage drop in the numbers for each class. If 22 of the 28 classes are dropping, it's not the classes or the formulas, it's the SCCA.

Here's a hint, the SCCA is supposedly looking for new members, however, there is not a single SCCA advertisement in any of the karting magazine or websites, trust me, I know. Karting is the #1 potential community for new SCCA members, and there is ZERO advertising aimed at them. I would bet that at any regional or national kart race, 90% of the karters have never heard of the SCCA.

I'd be willing to believe that the SCCA participation is dropping due primarily to the fact that our Club is doing very little positively to actually gain new members.

RH - FCM

[Al Guibord]

It is certianly my hope that over the course of the next 2 years that a lot of the guys running in the F2000 Series will be buying newer equiptment and breaking up the log jam of good used FC's for regional and national drivers to use which in turn will increase the FC numbers again... Rob I couldn't agree more about marketing to the Karting crowd...

[Stan Clayton]

Hi Rob,

Although I agree that some well-targeted marketing would help (I have nothing to do with the business side of the Club) the picture is better than what you may think. In 2000 we had about 5500 license holders, versus 9400 last year. That's not as rapid growth as Nasa has experienced, but it certainly indicates that the Club is not shrinking.

The challenge is that National racing entries have been static for years. Here is a graph of the data from 1983 - 2006.



Without the SM class, National racing entries are right where they were in 1985. But the picture is more complex than that. In 1985 National entries far outnumbered Regional entries, because Regional races were thought of as a necessary evil to getting a National license to participate in National races. As the years went by, though, Regions figured out that Regional racing was an end unto itself for many racers and they began to build robust Regional classes and racing programs. The result is that last year we had 10,687 National entries...and 29,380 Regional entries (not to mention the 89,000+ Solo entries!). If anything, it is National racing which is in trouble...not the Club as a whole.

I would correct you on one point. Karting is not the largest or even a major source of new drivers in the Club, although it is a natural background for open wheel drivers. The overwhelming majority of new drivers in the Club come straight off the street. There is not even that much migration from Solo. And most new drivers want to drive a car they either have in their garage or that they see and admire on the street. The good ol' days when FF was 25% of all National entries seem well and truly behind us.

Regards, Stan

[Daryl DeArman]

Karting is not the largest or even a major source of new drivers in the Club

I'd agree, but is that because SCCA doesn't offer them something they want? Or is it because they don't know the SCCA exists? They may not represent a huge market compared to the general public, but the demographics say they'd be the perfect target market.

Most karters think car racing is really expensive, with no real idea what it costs to club race. They know what Formula TR, Formula BMW or a spot on the PR1 motorsports team would cost. They know that karting can be Expensive and assume that cars must be moreso.

If we are at their races (and I've heard it) and someone seems slightly interested, car racers tend to boast about inflated budgets and appear elitist.

SCCA racing can be cheap (FV or ITC) or it can be expensive (FA or GT1) just as karting can be expensive (250 Superkarts and ICA classes) it can also be cheap (SuperBox, HPV)

There is also that percentage of karters who are waiting to be discovered and aren't ready to pursue racing as a hobby---therefore they aren't going to put the kart away just yet.

[bryancohnracing]

Stan,

Please check those numbers again. To my knowledge the number of licensed drivers has hovered between 8200 and about 10,000 over the last 20 odd years. I recall reading data (found stuffed in a file cabinet) that had the hard participation data from 1979 on. Where said data is now I have no idea.

I think the 5500 you are quoting is licensed National drivers, not the total of licensed drivers.

Another side note: Look at the total % of Formula/Sports Racers participants vs over "class groupings such as Production. I recall that F/SR was in the mid to high 30% of the total number of SCCA racers for many years.

[Rob Howden]

I would correct you on one point. Karting is not the largest or even a major source of new drivers in the Club, although it is a natural background for open wheel drivers. The overwhelming majority of new drivers in the Club come straight off the street. There is not even that much migration from Solo. And most new drivers want to drive a car they either have in their garage or that they see and admire on the street. The good ol' days when FF was 25% of all National entries seem well and truly behind us.

Regards, Stan

Thanks for all the continued information, Stan.

On this point, however, I was not trying to state that karting was, at this time, the largest or major source of new members for the Club. My point is that it has the potential to be such. I think one of karting's key aspects is that it brings people into the sport and teaches them racecraft and competition, and I believe that many have dreams of driving a full-size race car, but simply don't have the knowledge of what's out there.

A perfect case in point was found at the recent Kart Expo in Chicago. We had our FV project car there, as well as a Formula First. I was pretty surprised by the complete lack of knowledge that many of the showgoers had in terms of these specific cars. They had no idea of the budgets for a smaller formula car and we're extremely impressed.

I don't want to hi-jack this thread to go on this tangent, and it should be started as one of its own. Thanks again for the participation numbers. With growth and class stability being so important, I think one of foci regarding the growth of the FB and FE classes will be to detemine where these drivers came from....converts from other open wheel classes, new racers, or SRF/Prod converts.

[Douglas Kniffin]

Just a quick add possible reasoning on the FA numbers increase. I was at the double regional in Florida last month with a Van Diemen on wide wheels in FA. There were also 3 other Van Diemen's with Zetec's running in FA. In the FA class at that race there were 2 old Ralt RT5's and 4 Van Diemen's with Zetec's. Maybe that comes back to the 8's and 10's in FC again....

[Michael Rand]

No Doug, the train carrying that flogged to death horse has left the station-state-country-hemisphere.

[Douglas Kniffin]

Just looking at the increased FA numbers and the crazy post earlier this week debating it, it looks like that train is moving along quite well

[Stan Clayton]

Stan,

Please check those numbers again. To my knowledge the number of licensed drivers has hovered between 8200 and about 10,000 over the last 20 odd years. I recall reading data (found stuffed in a file cabinet) that had the hard participation data from 1979 on. Where said data is now I have no idea.

I think the 5500 you are quoting is licensed National drivers, not the total of licensed drivers.

Bryan, I checked with Staff and it looks like you are correct. They could not find the file you reference, and all paper archives are in long-term storage, but over the past 10 years total licenses have grown by about 15%. Obviously, that is less positive news than the 70% I was under the impression had occurred.

Another side note: Look at the total % of Formula/Sports Racers participants vs over "class groupings such as Production. I recall that F/SR was in the mid to high 30% of the total number of SCCA racers for many years.

I see from the chart above that F/SR entries account for nearly 50% of all entries, and presuming that the F/SR guys race about as often as other category's drivers, they must make up about that percentage of drivers as well.

Regards, Stan

[Thomas Copeland]

Not to bring back dead ponies or anything...

Doug, you are absolutely dead on accurate in your observations.....and the train may have left the station but it got derailed shortly afterwards due to some "high ballin' " through the rail yard.......

So far in the San Fran region every Zetec car I've seen has run as either FS or FA. I think I'll be the first Zetec FC car ever in the region when I run the double national next week. But seriously, I am considering running as FA or FS. I do have multiple "homo -G" papers.

[Rob Howden]

Not to bring back dead ponies or anything...

Doug, you are absolutely dead on accurate in your observations.....and the train may have left the station but it got derailed shortly afterwards due to some "high ballin' " through the rail yard.......

So far in the San Fran region every Zetec car I've seen has run as either FS or FA. I think I'll be the first Zetec FC car ever in the region when I run the double national next week. But seriously, I am considering running as FA or FS. I do have multiple "homo -G" papers.

Hi Tom,

Here's my question, why would you run as an extremely uncompetitive FA rather than a competitive FC?

RH - FCM

[Thomas Copeland]

Rob, more likely to run as FS. Unrestrict the Zetec and crank up the HP. Let that baby fly down the straightaways.

We got one guy here in the region who has souped his Zetec up to something like 190 HP. I think he has like 8 gears or something like that in his car so he can take advantage of every power band/torque rating that motor has. I swear the thing is like the "Green Monster" of Van Diemens. Must be a real joy to drive.

[Stan Clayton]

Rob, I've asked that very question of several FC-Z drivers who persist in driving their cars in FA (and FS). The uniform response I've gotten is that once you tried the car with 180+ hp, going down to 144-ish is completely unsat.

Stan

[Jeff Read]

Let us know how it goes running in FS for a National

[Stan Clayton]

Thomas, if you look at the revisions to the FA specs for these cars which came out in the March Fastrack, you will find that everything (AFAIK) the Darryl Benner did to his car is legal in FA. Free cams, free map, no restrictor, 5-sp, free diff, etc.

Zoom zoom...

Stan

[Thomas Copeland]

Really Stan? Maybe that is the way to go....dunno. Definitely bears thinking about.

[Stan Clayton]

Yes really, Thomas. See page 19 of the March Fastrack. The feedback we got from the guys who still race the cars in FA was that they'd like some easy bolt-on power upgrades without getting into the engine (cams, map, etc.) and to be able to upgrade to a 5-sp (I am told the 'box has a 5-sp conversion kit) and a limited slip diff, so we gave it to them. The weight seems about right presuming a 200 lbs driver, so we didn't change that.

Don't get me wrong, the car is still an underpowered Atlantic, but talk to Darryl about how much more fun it is to drive in that configuration.

Oh yeah, tires are free in FA, too.

Stan

[Greg Mercurio]

Thomas: By competing as an FA you are going to be increasing WHICH participation numbers? You have an opportunity to support the FC class with a DOUBLE NATIONAL race weekend and you would toss this opportunity?

Your illogic rivals Captain Kirk's

[Douglas Kniffin]

With a competant driver I don't see why a sorted FC car with a worked Zetec engine and big wheels can't make 90% of the atlantic drivers very annoyed. I really good guy in a new swift is still going to kick ass but for the most part I think a suped up Van Diemen should now be competitive with what you regularly see in FA.

The important question is... why the hell would you want to go that fast in that tube frame? Sounds very scary.

[racer27]

The important question is... why the hell would you want to go that fast in that tube frame? Sounds very scary.

That's one of my big F1000 (FB) concerns...

[Thomas Copeland]

Before you go bazonkers Greg I'm not driving in either FS or FA next weekend. I have the loaned wheels so I can do it as FC. I'm just talking about possible future stuff beyond that. You'll still get your chance to get your butt kicked next weekend.

As far as wanting to drive in FS and FA I really don't want to...you see I have these wheels, pefectly good ones too, sitting on my shelve, figure shouldn't be wasting them, so I'll should use them...wonder where I can?....

[Greg Mercurio]

I'm soooooooooo relieved I just can't hardly stand it. You can run those big wheels next weekend and compile the data you need to make your case to the CRB. If Stan is there he can witness the testing data as well. As for getting spanked, well, I'm breathless with anticipation of some really close racing.

Just remember, this is NOT a contact sport!!

[Thomas Copeland]

In 27 years I've never hit another driver. Not once. Hope that doesn't end up being famous last words (I just got to make sure I've got all my excuses in order...).

[greg pizzo]

My question would be ...after all that ......would or COULD you be competitive in FA ??? agaisnt a good Rt40-41 or a swift 014??? or even a swift DB4 ??

might be able to semi keep up in a straight line ........but if you were up against a real driver in a real car ........ the lack of GRIP I think and BRAKES would be a problem.......

Stan...????

I know you and Rennie have some Knowlage of a decent RT40......



BTW even the 2005 COOPER spec car is a blast to drive ....I am faced with the decision ..wether or not to tunr it DOWN and fun FC or turn it UP and GO FA/FS ....

with the NEW aluminum head pinto motor .... claims of 10ish more HP ........ GEEZZZ that puts it right near the COOPER motor !! ....... I hope some day SOON we can all play nice together at the COOPER spec HP ........... a reeeally nice Balance !!! ........CRYING SHAME that whole deal went away !!! .....

its really hard to make yourself LIKE going slower ....artifically !!!


Stan...????

[Bob Wright]

I think it would be very hard to bring a Cooper Spec car (which is, for all intent and purposes, a FC on steroids) up to Atlantic performance if for no other reason than ground effects. There have been instances all over the country where Cooper cars beat true FAs, but never against a well prepared one with a good driver.

Alu head- if there was ever a reason to convert a Pinto to Zetec power, that's it. At $4,000 and probably 4hp (per QS, but they have not seen or dyno'd one so its educated speculation) the justification becomes way easier. The ECU on the Zetec will simply get dialed up to meet the new pinto numbers. If the new pinto piston/rod combo is eventually allowed, then the Zetec gets dialed up again...etc.

All this screaming about Cooper cars, 8/10" rims and the unfairness of it all affects what, maybe 20 cars in the entire country still in Pro spec?- the rest either have been or are being switched to FC spec.

[Stan Clayton]

Greg, I think Bob and the others paint a pretty accurate picture of the Zetec's potential in FA. Maybe nearly as quick in a straight line, but seriously handicapped in the twisty bits. Earlier I wrote that I thought the Zetec made about 180 hp...well, I think I got that wrong and that the real Pro 2000 number is about 170. Still, even if there are only about 20 folks who don't want to chop 25 hp off 170 and who may be interested in adding 25 instead, then it is an easy proposal for the CRB to approve. The Cooper series is gone and with it the need to hold these cars to that series' arbitrary spec. Regards, Stan

[jgaither]

This thread is interesting to me for a lot of reasons. One of those seems to be an unstated lack of interest in winning a national championship in one's given class. Because the participation numbers are geared to that end, one would think that getting to the big show & then having the right mount that can win it would be the most important thing.

The guys that are having a blast with their modified FC's have every right to race what they want - this is a free country still, I think. But they won't be contesting for a win at Holy Topeka. For them, it doesn't seem to matter & that's OK. Just seems different. Makes me wonder if the venue has dented the interest in climbing that mountain. I still think I'd like to do it one more time, but getting the invite isn't as special as it was for me in 1977 in FF. (Hey, remember now - DW is older than me).

jg

[JByers]

Stan, here is a question for you. If someone was to upgrade the current Cooper spec motor from 162 Hp and increased it to 200 hp, replace the 4 speed open dif to a 5 speed LS, replace the front wing and diffuser with efficient replacements, how do you think the zetec would compete at a low speed track like Topeka? It is my understanding that aero of a RT41 or a 014 does not take effect until the 70mph range.

[Stan Clayton]

Stan, here is a question for you. If someone was to upgrade the current Cooper spec motor from 162 Hp and increased it to 200 hp, replace the 4 speed open dif to a 5 speed LS, replace the front wing and diffuser with efficient replacements, how do you think the zetec would compete at a low speed track like Topeka? It is my understanding that aero of a RT41 or a 014 does not take effect until the 70mph range.

While it seems axiomatic that whatever negatively affects low-speed FA aero will do the same for the Zetec, that is probably an oversimplification. The first generation Stohr DSRs responded very nicely to switching from an FC-style diffuser to their present design, and they picked up speed everywhere on track. That said, the Zetec suffers in comparison to late model FAs in that its overall width of 185cm is inferior to the 200cm seen on traditional Atlantics. OTOH, the cars have a 75 lbs weight break over the latest Swifts, which will help, and they present considerably lower overall drag figures. Generate some more downforce and the cars should be much closer to the pace, though I'd still consider a podium spot a problematical goal. Stan

[John Robinson II]

though I'd still consider a podium spot a problematical goal. Stan

Stan, arent they all?

John

[Stan Clayton]

Stan, arent they all?

That IS the general idea...