Formula D

[Wren]

Today you can buy a brand new F1000 engine for less than a rebuild on a Pinto or Kent engine.

Or a vee engine. My last vee rebuild was around $2500 with shipping both ways(and the builder ate the cost when it wiped a lobe on the cam on the dyno, and I took a 20/20 crank to save some money too). One of the biggest bike junkyards in the country is only a few hours away, I could save a considerable amount on shipping, could probably scam some free stuff out of them too, they're good guys.

I'm having trouble seeing how this class couldn't be cheaper to run than a vee. Crash damage would clearly cost more, and the shocks would be another expense.

[Rick Kirchner]

Steve - I was making my assumptions based on the replacement cost of a current VanDiemen frame - which I believe I saw on their website at $12K! Your costs certainly turn that assumption around. I have mine torn down to the bare frame right now, and when I took it over to my painter he took one look at it and said "holy sh!t - look at all that welding!" I saw an article on the Stohr use of stressed flat panels and i thought that maybe that was a much cheaper way to go. The front bulkhead on a Van Diemen is extremely complex as a fabrication, but I wonder if you couldn't just wire EDM the thing out of 1" plate and be done with it if you weren't extremely concerned with weight. It does look like other manufacturers have found better ways to fab that area.

Several years ago I worked with Manny Papendreas on a Turbine engine for a missile. He taught me all about production cost being a direct linear relationship to parts count, and since I've seen that in just about everything (and a single line of code counts as a "part"!). Every part has to be fabricated, tested or inspected, and assembled, so it's all touch labor - thus my "parts count and simplicity jihad".

I agree that it's currently cheaper to buy a new engine rather than rebuild a kent or pinto, but thats as much a function of the rules and state of the art as they evolved as anything else.

It is true that the life of ANY engine in ANY class nowadays - be it a bike or automotive engine - is much more limited. Due to CAD/CAM, rapid prototyping and other manufacturing techniques, it makes more sense for the manufacturers to re-optimize every time a new model is introduced or the emissions/CAFE requirements change, rather than to build a single motor design and constantly adapt.

[thunderracing91]

I'll also throw in a vote for the durability of these motors. I've seen multiple people learn to drive a clutch on one, no problem. Ours last for dozens(50+) of dyno pulls, then the chassis dyno, and then lots of hours driven by people who have no clue. We tore the pan off of one in a crash, shut the motor down afterwards, put a new pan on, and it ran.

We usually expect to pay about $1000 for a used, low mile 600cc CBR600F4i motor. You can do better if you are willing to wait, or strip one out of a bike.

I'm interested in how feasible it would be to buy a new bike, ride the break-in period, and part the bike out. Plastic is very expensive, so I think it might work.

If you were to sell plastics off of a new bike expect to get around $800 to $1000. They really do go for a good amount. All of the race guys would like to have have a roller set up on the bike. I am not for sure how much that would go for........but I would think you might get around $1500-$2000 for the roller chassis............

Andrew

[Matt Conrad]

I just wanted to chime in a bit on the MC engine durability issue....these are fairly durable motors in their stock trim...built motors with aftermarket pistons and machined decks and heads...another story....when valves and pistons collide...bad news.

Even though I would like to see it...I don't foresee any MC manufacturer getting behind what we do to their engines....forget the fact they come from crashed bikes....

Matt Conrad
Phoenix Race Works, LLC

[sidney]

I thought West was buying (and selling) crate motors from Muzzy? Are these new motors from Kawi or wrecked bikes?

[racer27]

Anyone know what the approx price differance is (Apple to Apple onparision) between a 600cc and a 1000cc (as used in FB) engine would be?

[carnut169]

From shopping Ebay on nearly a daily basis for a year or so...
Figure $1500-$2000 for a new 600 and $2750-$3500 for a new 1000.

Used motors are quite a bit less even if under 1000 miles. $500-1000 for a 600 and $1000- $2000 for a 1000.

I paid $2500 for my 1st motor (picked it up) a 0 mile 04. The 2nd one was $1500 shipped but had 2500 miles.

Ebay is not your only source... there are bike salvage yards, builders, and a little company in Arizona.

[thunderracing91]

Here is the rule book for the Championship Cup Series. I ran with this organization when I was racing bikes. When I was racing in the 600 class I ran in the middleweight supersport class and middleweight superbike class, and of course you could always race up in the the liter bike classes as the 600's were as fast if not faster at most of the tracks here in the midwest. Unless of course we were at Road America........This rule book gives you guys an idea of what they are allowing in the engines.

http://www.ccsracing.us/forms/2007/r...ook%202007.pdf

andrew

[Frank Varano]

Ok, so after 4 pages of discussion there seems to be a good basis for the rules of the class. I know from all the reading i'd probably buy one if this class comes out, maybe even convert a current FF. The only problem I see is who's going to build the first FD??

[SSpiffytoo]

The key words in this whole discussion (at least to me) are "Entry Level". From somewhere up above:

The two largest cost drivers in a new FF are engine ($13,000) and gearbox ($8000). Shcoks are third, and may be as much as $6000. The key to reenergizing FF (and not merely "keep it alive") is to reduce acquisition cost for new cars. When looking for places to cut costs, you start with the major costs first. Ergo the look at bike engines and their combined gearbox if you are trying to figure out a way to reduce costs of a new formula car.

If you want entry level, to my mind the car costs need to be in the range of new F500 cars ($20-25K for a complete car.) Definitely not north of $30K. Within a few years used cars will start filtering down. When I was looking at getting started in Club Racing I looked at FFs and what convinced me to go with an F500 were the engine, transmission and damper costs. I decided to go F500, but that's not for a lot of people (something about "oversized go-carts" comments comes to mind. ) But for entry level, I think that about the price point you have to hit. And the engine overhaul costs need to be kept in check somehow. Simple language in the rule such as, "Engine as manufactured by OEM. No component of the engine may be altered, modified, or changed nor be of any other origin than the original equipment manufacturer (OEM) unless specifically authorized in these rules." Then severely limit what is authorized in the rules.

Once again, the key words are ENTRY LEVEL!

[Bill Johnson 42]

So I sell my DSR this winter because a revised interpretation by the CRB of an age old rule with a very clear intent renders my car uncompetitive. I buy a FF because I am looking for something with stable rules, reasonable cost and low maintenance and here’s what I walk in to.

The only one that has actually summed up reality is Charlie Warner on page 3. If you want to know what a FD would really cost then look at the cost of a new F1000 from Stohr or Phoenix, it’s the same car with the same number of parts. Subtract $1500.00 for wings and maybe $500.00 for a supposedly cheaper motor and where does that leave you for your entry level car? Keep in mind these prices will only go up from there as the need/want for these companies to make money kicks in. Or look at a VanDieman roller, again same car, same number of parts. There’s a reason they cost what they do. The only way to make it cheaper is to have fewer parts. We already have that in F500 but for some reason that’s unattractive even though it meets all of the cost goals you seem to want. And yes, you can make something like the Banshee, but the minute you do, someone like Stohr will come along and build a rocket ship and blast it off the planet.

For those that think the motorcycle engine is the answer to everything, it is not. They are a whole lot bigger pain in the butt than these posts would lead you to believe. Does anyone really think you can win in a truly competitive class with a $1500.00 junkyard motor? A crate Spec Miata motor costs $1500.00, but look what they really end up costing and by the GCR that’s a so called “stock” motor. The only reason a FF or 2 litre cost what they do they do is because we are literally squeezing the last single HP out of them. The same thing happens in every class. I’m glad to be done with motorcycle power. They sound and feel great but they are not cheap, not overly reliable and certainly not low maintenance.

The biggest problem I have with this deal is all I hear is how we are going to consolidate the formula car classes into A,B,C,D and V. That’s great, but you already can’t get that done. How is creating more classes going to help get there? It’s not; it’s just going to make it a bigger nightmare when and if it ever happens. At every turn we make what needs to be done for the long term more difficult. Or maybe that’s just where we’re going with our club. We’ll have 12 different formula car classes so everyone can get a $3.00 trophy. Change our name to the “Track Day Club of America”.

FF has survived all these years because of the stability of the rules, not in spite of them. And no, the class isn’t what it was in its heyday but it is unrealistic to think it will be again or for that matter that any formula car class ever will be.

Also, can someone explain to me how it took years to get a new crank and flywheel approved for FF but we can have a new class in a matter of months? Something is wrong with the system when the priority is creating new classes versus helping existing classes.

Personally, I wouldn't mind FF going back to DOT tires with an open tire rule (so SCCA can’t sell it out like they did with Spec Miata). It will never change the outcome or cost to run at the front, same people will spend the same amount of money and the end result will be the same, but I think it would tighten things up a little.

[Sean Maisey]

I won quite a few DSR Nationals in the SE and NE between 2000 and 2003 with a cheap junk yard Yamaha R1. It definitely can be done.

I plan to kick some serious F1000/FB tail with a box stock GSXR later this season. I have put my 'skin in the game' repeatedly. I ran FF with a late model Van Diemen in 1998-2000, ran Stohr DSR s/n 001 from 2000-2003, ran a Zetec car championing it's inclusion in FC in 2004-5. This weekend I bought a 1999 Van Diemen with 2003 updates and I am converting it to F1000 specs...

What I can tell the uninitiated is that:

1) FC/FF Pinto motors really SUCK!
2) H-Pattern gearboxes - SUCK!
3) Yes Virginia, you can run salvage motorcycle power and win Nationals and run top 5 at the Runoffs. I have done it, and I am not that good.
4) Until you hear a m/c powered car pass at 12-13k RPM you haven't lived.

Bring it on!

Sean

[carnut169]

Amen, Sean.

The sky is not falling....

[Bill Johnson 42]

I won a lot of nationals too in a home built DSR over the last couple years. I really don't consider that an accomplishment.

You've also missed the point. This isn't a discussion about F1000 or DSR. It's a discussion about creating a new class that specifically targets an existing class. IMHO, something that is fundamentally wrong.

It also relates to where we want to be as a club in 5 or 10 years down the road with formula car racing. Do we want lots of classes with watered down competition across the country so everyone gets a trophy or do we want to funnel things down or a limited number of classes with stronger competition. Clearly 2 different paths to take.

This year I am getting my 2 teenage boys in the car. My choices to do that were Spec. Miata or FF. I chose the ford because it had the best balance of cost, competitiveness in the division and maintenance.

[S Lathrop]

Bill;

The days of single car racing groups are long past. Now everyone is looking for the racing class that will catch on or a run what you brung class structure. Cheep obviously isn't the answer or F500 would be the biggest class.

My opinion is that Zetec FC is the best bet currently and will have the lowest operating cost over time. The only part that may not be as durable as could be is the transmission and that can be solved. The only black cloud I see is the issue of the aluminum head Pinto. If the Zetec emerges with a tiny advantage, then the Zetec FC will be very stable as a class. If the Aluminum Pinto has the edge, then the benefits of a super durable engine will be lost. With the aluminum Pinto car owners will face major rebuild bills annually.

FF has chosen to not change and continue to exist as is. For the next 5 or so years, I think that is a good choice. The problem is that there are no new cars being built. If we get F600 with a FF type rules set, then that problem may not be an issue because there will be volume production of cars that can be built as FF. I am betting that I can make a standardized product to serve FF, F600, FC and F1000. I may not win that bet.

The advantage of the bike engines is that they offer great performace for low bucks. F600 and F1000 will suffer from the annual engine upgrade. If engines have a 2 year service life, then compared to the current FF and FC Pinto you will be money ahead. Also we are running the MC engines stock unlike DSR.

It still remains to be seen if F1000 gets up to the numbers to make the run offs any time soon. I was active in getting the current FC/Pinto cars to the National Championship level. That took about 3 years but we had a pro series in Canada at the time and you could get used cars from England at very low prices. F1000 is a stand alone deal.

Over the next couple years, F1000 will do a lot of sorting through designs as every one tries to find the best combination. At the same time the participation numbers have to get high enough to qualify for the run offs. I think this will be a lot of fun but any one who thinks that they are not in a development class better take a better look. Any one who doesn't like the thought of having to change their car to keep up better think again. It is highly likely that when we get to deciding a national champion, all the cars currently being marketed will not be competitive.

[Jim Garry]

Just wanted to say how much sense Bill Johnson made ...

The only one that has actually summed up reality is Charlie Warner on page 3. If you want to know what a FD would really cost then look at the cost of a new F1000 from Stohr or Phoenix, it’s the same car with the same number of parts. Subtract $1500.00 for wings and maybe $500.00 for a supposedly cheaper motor and where does that leave you for your entry level car?

That's an idea that was turning over in the back of my mind but I never pulled the thought together like Charlie and Bill did.

The only reason a FF or 2 litre cost what they do they do is because we are literally squeezing the last single HP out of them. .

See post #56 and Stan's #62. There are ways to cheapen this motor tremendously. But even if there is no future in the Pinto motor, let's not disenfranchise a huge group of car/engine owners. Let's not create a MC FD class in addition to the current FF class. Combine the two. Equalize the best we can, accepting that perfect equalization is not going to happen.

The biggest problem I have with this deal is all I hear is how we are going to consolidate the formula car classes into A,B,C,D and V. That’s great, but you already can’t get that done. How is creating more classes going to help get there? It’s not; it’s just going to make it a bigger nightmare when and if it ever happens. At every turn we make what needs to be done for the long term more difficult.

Here, here! The continual addition of classes with great frequency is taking its toll. Time to stop this reckless lack of vision. Let's take a holistic look at the formula category and lay out a long term plan for all its classes.

Also, can someone explain to me how it took years to get a new crank and flywheel approved for FF but we can have a new class in a matter of months? Something is wrong with the system when the priority is creating new classes versus helping existing classes..

No Bill, IMO that question can't be answered. Not with any reasonableness anyway.


As for FC/FF Pinto motors and H-Pattern gearboxes sucking, whether that is true or not, it would be wise to check the rush to MC power (for F600) and take a long look at it. Yeah, the MC engines are neat, and having them scream past at 13k is cool. Is that what we should base this decision on?

Jim

[Billy8910]

Sure would like to know if the motor mount dimensions are the same on an R1 compared to the 600.

And how much lighter is the 600?

And how much SMALLER is the 600?

And where are these 0 miles engines coming from?!

Thanks. Bill Hiatt

[thunderracing91]

I just dont understand why everybody wants to drop everything we have and go to F-1000 and the non-existent F600. Does everybody that wants one of these cars going to go out and buy one for $20,000-30,000 as soon as they come out? I know I cant! I would be lucky to get $10,000 for my whole ff setup. The reason we got into FF is because we were spending some big bucks to race shifterkarts on the national scene. My dad and I said this is ridicoulous lets get a car in SCCA and do some club racing. I know that my income wouldnt allow a $20,000-$30,000 car even with the help of my dad. I guess what I am saying is we have FF racers racing and we have FC racers racing. Lets help the too many current classes that we have. I think it would be cool to have a F600 screaming at 16,000 rpm but............................................... .are we just in the silly seasaon still?

Andrew

[S Lathrop]

The FF crank shaft issue involves SCCA Enterprises.

There was a crank built, tested, and that really fit years before Enterprises had theirs available.

Whats more, that crank would have been available for about half what Enterprises charges.

[S Lathrop]

Unfortunately cars cost money. The prices that Stohr and Phoenix are asking reflect the reality of building cars in the US today. Almost any type of car is going to cost about what you see.

Some one might be able to get a car built in Mexico or China cheeper but you will need volume sales and right now there is no assurance that the volume will be there.

This is the delema that leads to the spec car idea. Problem with spec cars is that the only thing spec about spec car racing is the cost of entry. You don't get the price structure you have in FF and FC with cars going form under $10,000 to over $50,000. You can have a good serviceable car at many different prices. You can also buy second level cars and through good preparation and good driving still run at the front. With spec cars you get one price for all.

For F1000 you can convert cars and if there ever is a F600 those cars that don't make it as F1000 will certainly be good F600 prospects.

The real discussion should be about the cost of playing at any level. F1000 looks real good to me. And F600 could be even better.

Go back and look at what the old FM cars cost. Something like $35,000 I think.

Folks that is the cost reality.

[jgaither]

Stan:

As you know, last year I wrote the Comp Board with a recommendation to consider revitalizing the class by enabling a current and more attractive drivetrain that is already being used in new chassis in the UK and (I think) Australia. This is a Ford engine and is an automotive engine & it can also run a lot of miles with low maintenance & is (I think) a decent candidate for updating existing chassis. The goal was to attract more new blood to the class with a modern drivetrain (which might also include a newer type gearbox as well) and encourage new manufacture of chassis here and abroad. Since this combo is already out there, shouldn't it be a part of a discussion like this?

Does the MC powertrain become the only way?

jg

[RobLav]

The club needs some compromise between developing new growth while maintaining the old guard. F600 (like F1000) would be an effort toward developing new growth of younger people and new cars.

A committee, made up of former FSAE paople and current manufacturers, seems a reasonable way to develop this. I know a very bright young guy up here in the Northeast who was on Cornell's FSAE team and is very interested in doing this. The interest is there.

[KOTR17]

The way it's going ....["it" being that lots of people seem to have a suggestion of inventing a new car or new engine use or new class.... for the purpose that the idea will "save" open wheel racing] ........

.........the way it's going, soon enough there will be a race weekend where the entire grid of "wings & things" will be made of one car of each of these classes.

FS, FA, FC, CFC, FF, CF, FSCCA, FM old, Pro FM, F500, F600, F1000, S2, DSR, CSR, ASR, SRSCCA, FV ...wow! 18 cars and everybody goes home with a first place trophy

Great Post!

SCCA is getting incredibly diluted which only keeps making life tougher and tougher for all classes, regions, etc....SCCA should be talking about which classes they are going to eliminate before discussing adding any more new ones.

Unless SCCA found a magic way of getting more new racers into Club racing it can't keep diluting all the fields with more classes.

Tony

[Bill Johnson 42]

Steve - Can't really disagree with anything you said.

I had a really hard time deciding what to buy this year. I have raced for quite a few years and I am also active in the club - right now I can't tell anyone new where any of our formula and sports racer classes are going in the next 5 years. The only place I disagree is that you already have a place for multiple chassis right now with FF and FC.

Dollar for dollar the best buy out there is late model FC. You can buy a helluva race car in the low 20's and with take-off tires race it for next to nothing, but of course the uncertainty of the motor rule is what is driving the cost of the cars down. Having a Pro series for a class is great, having a Pro series for a class with a different set of rules is a problem. That was the beginning of the end for S2.

If the Zetec is the motor of the future that's great then make it the motor of the future. Set a date 2,3 or 4 years out so it will be the motor to have at that point and go for it. The continual "tuning" of the rules is a problem. Our club has some very dedicated and talented people involved but we just dont have the resources to make all the different cars in 30 some classes perfectly equal on all our different tracks. NASCAR can barely do it with an essentially a spec car and unlimited resources. If we start adding multiple motor combinations in classes how are we going to make everything equal? What's the process? Or maybe the future really is lots of classes with lots of individual choices. That's just not my personal preference.

I know spec anything is unappealling to most on this forum but if we really want true entry level option then you have to look at what has been successful in our club, Spec Racer and Spec Miata. Both owe their success to an incredibly low entry level cost in the first few years of the class. Some of the successful youth orientated circle track classes have a lot of similarites with these 2 classes. And no, I am saying the spec thing is the answer and I'm not pushing it, but we also shouldn't ignore it either.

Do some of our classes need a tune up, absolutely. Change is hard in our club. People have a lot of time and money invested in their psoition and we need to have some respect for that. But change is a lot easier when we have a clear path to where we are going and a reasonable time frame to accomplish it.

[sidney]

I bought my first car in the mid-nineties (FV) and ran it for 5 years. Great learning experience on how to be smooth and carry speed. I stopped running the car and sold it, because the technology was 50 years old, VW stopped making blocks a few years ago, and things like spindles seemed to break hours after being crack-tested. The old guard didn't want to change the rules to make the cars safer, and at the same time easier to maintain. Now there is a small group of guys running Formula First. I'd call that an evolution of the FV rules. I don't have any FF ownership experience, but the story sounds similar, and falling numbers from 1000 to 400 means that quickly your gene pool is growing so small that sustaining life grows ever more difficult. I'd submit that FF needs to entertain a similar evolution, not revolution to breathe new life into the class.

I'm building an F1000 form an old Tatuus. But knowing what I know now about the rules, the converted cars are going to have to undergo major changes to be competitive. If you had FF rules tweaked to adjust to some market common items such as wheels and some cost-containment measures such as shocks, etc. then I think you'd get more guys running old FC and FFs with MC power. If I could run at the pointy end of the grid without buying a $50k+ Stohr or the like, I'd gladly trade my 1000cc motor for a 600cc and take the wings off. But the rules have to be written with that intent, not to sell more $50k cars.

If you had a 600cc bike class would vetran FSAE folks come and play? I'd say the answer is yes. Car manufacturers are already looking at conversion kits for older VD's. Why not capitalize on this and open up an FD class to 600cc MC power?

I think we need to give the Stan and his folks a chance to see what is possible, so that changes can be made to breathe new life into formula cars, otherwise, the downhill trend will continue.

[KOTR17]

Bill;


The advantage of the bike engines is that they offer great performace for low bucks. F600 and F1000 will suffer from the annual engine upgrade. If engines have a 2 year service life, then compared to the current FF and FC Pinto you will be money ahead. Also we are running the MC engines stock unlike DSR.

Before everyone gets too excited about the MC engines, may I make a suggestion. Find someone that raced shifter karts 4 or 5 years ago and ask them about the class. Shifter karting is very big in the United States and a few years ago it was on fire just after it's introduction. The class got going using Motocross engines (Yamaha, Honda, Suzuki, TM, etc....)Everyone could buy a new crate or used junkyard engine and go racing for very cheap and they ran forever. However, after a year or two as the class became more popular and more competitive and people began to play, what started out as a $1500.00 durable fun engine, became a $7500.00 time bomb requiring daily rebuilds. Not to mention every year the Asian motocross companies came out with a new and more powerful engine. So even if SCCA found a way to stop blueprinting (I am on the SM comitee and that is not likely) there would still be the problem of the engine of the year club.


BTW, the US karting scene has since dumped MC engines.

Food for thought,

Tony

[Greg Mercurio]

Like I never have an opinion or anything...

Go back and re-read Chas Warner's post. Please?

Since when does entry level require a $35K price tag? We have newbies in Crossles, Swifts and VD's in our region ever year. Some migrated from karts even. Into a car that doesn't have a MC enginefor heavens's sake.

My "entry" into FF was with a T342 including trailer and a ton of spare for $10k. Entry level redefined. My racing buddy and family friend's "entry" into FF was with a T342. Then he got a Crossle then a VD. All for less than half the de facto entry level of $35 or $25K that seems to be some of your pet numbers.

So let's discriminate between

Entry-Level-Must-Win-First-Place-Every-Weekend-Will-Be-The-Next-Ayrton-Senna,

and the

Entry-Level-Just-Graduated-From-Karts-And-Looking-For-Fun.

[S Lathrop]

Bill;

I'll buy your argument only for Spec Miata. SCCA no longer has the resources to afford a "successful" program like Sports Renault. At best SCCA spent $2000 per car and if the true numbers were known it might be double that.

If FF and FC were the only market, I wouldn't be interested. There are not enough sales in both classes to sustain one builder. I had been working on a new FC over 10 years. I only decided to finish the project after the prospect of F1000 became certain. I have argued for F600 for over a year now.

I can continue to just take care of my customers with parts and updates for the forseable future and not take on the head ache of a new product.

I am taking a significant gamble that I can build a product that will perform at the level of all my previous cars and meet the requirements for several classes. Of 9 car models I have done since 1974, all have won some type of national championship. I was about to say that there was one model that did not but Jim Gary's car did win a national championship. I have way more than 9 national championships.

I pushed for the F1000 to be an extension of FC and I am pushing again for F600 to be an extension of FF. I am betting that the F1000 and F600 have the sex appeal that attract customers. SCCA hopes that these 2 classes attract a lot of new drivers or they would not have created them. Rember also that classes will be eliminated if there is not sufficient interest. Any body rember SCCA CanAm?

It maybe that F1000 and F600 simply rearrange the deck chairs on the Titanic.

The real problem is that the existing mix of formula car classes is not attracting new participants.

[Stan Clayton]

Stan:

As you know, last year I wrote the Comp Board with a recommendation to consider revitalizing the class by enabling a current and more attractive drivetrain that is already being used in new chassis in the UK and (I think) Australia. This is a Ford engine and is an automotive engine & it can also run a lot of miles with low maintenance & is (I think) a decent candidate for updating existing chassis. The goal was to attract more new blood to the class with a modern drivetrain (which might also include a newer type gearbox as well) and encourage new manufacture of chassis here and abroad. Since this combo is already out there, shouldn't it be a part of a discussion like this?

Does the MC powertrain become the only way?

jg

If you take a look at post six on the first page of this thread, I think I made it clear that I include modern auto engines in the FD concept. IMO, new auto engines are a key to the future of not only FF, but certainly FD if it ever comes to fruition. So yes, the Duratec 1600 would be on the list in FD.

Lots of folks are excited by the prospect of a screaming high-RPM m/c engine, but frankly, they are not for everyone. Furthermore, I suspect that equalizing their performance with the Kent will be more difficult than some have imagined. After all, if they are given equal power they will naturally weight considerably less than an auto engine/transaxle combination. Cut their power down to a similar pwr/wt ratio and they will not have the outright power to be competitive. Folks interested in this option are going to have to contribute some skull sweat to figure this thing out.

In a recent thread, Steve Lathrop mentioned how he thinks the FC-Zetec is the most cost effective option in formula racing today, and I have to concede that he has a good point. IMO, a key factor in that cost effectiveness is that the engines and gearboxes are operating well within their design parameters. Folks who like the F-600 option have to realize that like the Kent, 600cc m/c engines will have to be stressed to within an inch of their lives to be competitive. Conversely, restricted modern 4-valve 1600cc auto engines would be well within their design parameters at 115 hp, and so, like the Zetec in FC, could be expected to last many seasons of racing with minimal drama. Finally, alternate auto engines/transaxles would weigh about the same as the Kent, further simplifying parity.

Stan

[Wren]

If you had a 600cc bike class would vetran FSAE folks come and play? I'd say the answer is yes. Car manufacturers are already looking at conversion kits for older VD's. Why not capitalize on this and open up an FD class to 600cc MC power?

I think the answer is yes. I think that just getting the word out to FSAE students would be extremely productive, and should be looked at for growing the club. This is a group of people who are really enthusiastic about cars, and are graduating as engineers, so they will have some disposable income. Every other young person at my driver's schools was a veteran of some FSAE program.

I have racing pictures up on my facebook profile, and people will message me wanting to know about it, and most of the FSAE team asks questions about it. Most people aren't even really familiar with it. Getting someone local to Detroit and California to take a car/cars to competition and talk to interested people would probably produce some new members. The local SCCA region is already doing the timing.

If you really want to open a can of worms, try to get them to change the FSAE rules to something that could be homologated. Note- I don't actually think that would be a good idea, I wouldn't want to share the track with 99% of FSAE cars.

[Moore3FF]

The final numbers are not in as my project is not complete, but I figure my conversion (FF to a 1000 cc bike motor) will cost about $8,000. I have not sold every last part of my FF that I won't need but the engine, trans, and misc. parts have netted about $5,600 (those with better equipment than mine will make much more). Thats a cost of about $2,400. Granted, I have done as much work as I can myself, but I could not get my FF engine freshened and purchase a preped aluminum head for that kind of money. So I hope to get two seasons of running on the bike motor and then sell it off for a newer one. My engine costs are greatly reduced so I can even run more events than I normally would.

Trust me, it is no easy decision to take a saw to your FF and convert it. It's also a ton of work if you do it all yourself. But when your choice is to convert to mc power and race or park your ride in the garage because you can't afford the engine costs, it becomes a much easier choice.

[Dennis McCarthy]

A few thoughts crossing my mind while doing a ground up on my RF95......

Maybe SCCA should stop trying to be all things to all people.
Keep adding car classes and in another few years we'll all end up with 5 lap races at best.
It might as well be FS across the board at least they would only have to hand out one first place trophy per race. I end up with much more track time at any almost any other event than with SCCA.

Zetec FC's are working well in the Northeast, just not with SCCA, Why?

F1000 Conversion? Outside of the initial group that has done or already begun a used car conversion, there won't be much of an incentive to convert used cars if they end up being grid fodder every weekend for the new purpose built F1000s. Running at the back is OK when your a newbie, it gets pretty old pretty quickly. Want to try the development thing, I've been there done that, it's pretty expensive. Steve L is spot on that present costs will certainly rise with the front running F1000s.

Banshee aircooled? Ever see one up close? While the concept is good the execution is somewhat primitive.

However, the Skippy cars manage to go many miles with no rebuilds and get beat up pretty hard by novice drivers. Was any thought ever given to why and how of their operation? Wouldn't they have made a good, safe entry level car? They are still being made in Lakeville Ct. I believe they are the largest domestic formula car manufacturer at present.


What can be done to make the Pintos much less volatile and much longer lasting? Detuning, tighter tolerances, aftermarket components? What do the engine builders say?
Is this the direction the CRB wants to take or is the long term goal to phase out the Pinto?

[Rick Kirchner]

Buried in all this what appears to be the overall concern - cost per mile. That means tires first and engines second. When the class is healthy, new cars will be sold.

In this months Racecar Engineering there is a short article with a few pics regarding the resurgence of FF and S2 due to adopting the Duratec. In sure there are other facets to the discussion (specifically, how they adopted the Duratec and the specific rules).

It also seems that the Aussies, Kiwis, Brits, Canadians, and some guys in Phoenix all race on treads. The cars were designed to run on treads. Why are we so enamored of the slicks?

I'd wager that for starters it's a helluva lot easer and cheaper to experiment with the tires than to make these big changes in the motor, regardless of the measured level of support. Why not, for a couple of years, run two FF classes - FF on slicks and FF on treads instead of CF, open to all years. One might find the treaded class heading quickly to legitimate national status. As the economics play out and the competition evolves, it should be obvious which way to go thereafter.

People always bitch, but once the tire bill comes down the engine bill might not be so bad. At that point anyway, the issue to reduce the engine costs would be more compelling.

[thunderracing91]

Before everyone gets too excited about the MC engines, may I make a suggestion. Find someone that raced shifter karts 4 or 5 years ago and ask them about the class. Shifter karting is very big in the United States and a few years ago it was on fire just after it's introduction. The class got going using Motocross engines (Yamaha, Honda, Suzuki, TM, etc....)Everyone could buy a new crate or used junkyard engine and go racing for very cheap and they ran forever. However, after a year or two as the class became more popular and more competitive and people began to play, what started out as a $1500.00 durable fun engine, became a $7500.00 time bomb requiring daily rebuilds. Not to mention every year the Asian motocross companies came out with a new and more powerful engine. So even if SCCA found a way to stop blueprinting (I am on the SM comitee and that is not likely) there would still be the problem of the engine of the year club.


BTW, the US karting scene has since dumped MC engines.

Food for thought,

Tony

I know exactly what you mean tony. I was there when SUPERKARTS USA! was in their prime. I raced the shifterkart scene from 1997-2001. In order to compete at the pointy end when scott speed, aj allmendinger etc etc etc you would have to have a minimum of 2 karts that were the latest and the greatest with a $6000-8000 dollar engine. My dad and I thought it was crazy for just a dirtbike engine. Although when it first started we had a fairly stock motor that my dad and I built. We won 2 grand nationals in 98 but shortly thereafter is when the engine builders started to get serious. It was great fun while it lasted but now we are spending about the same amount of money and we are racing a FF. I see now that all the 125 kart engines are Parilla's, TM and the like...............................

Andrew

[Stan Clayton]

Like I never have an opinion or anything...

Go back and re-read Chas Warner's post. Please?

Since when does entry level require a $35K price tag? We have newbies in Crossles, Swifts and VD's in our region ever year. Some migrated from karts even. Into a car that doesn't have a MC enginefor heavens's sake.

My "entry" into FF was with a T342 including trailer and a ton of spare for $10k. Entry level redefined. My racing buddy and family friend's "entry" into FF was with a T342. Then he got a Crossle then a VD. All for less than half the de facto entry level of $35 or $25K that seems to be some of your pet numbers.

So let's discriminate between

Entry-Level-Must-Win-First-Place-Every-Weekend-Will-Be-The-Next-Ayrton-Senna,

and the

Entry-Level-Just-Graduated-From-Karts-And-Looking-For-Fun.

Hey, it's not like Greg and I never disagreed on something...

I just went back and re-read Charlie's post for the umpteenth time. No offense to Greg or to Charlie, but when I strip away the extraneous content I am left with the "benign neglect" argument. No change. No additions. No plan for the future, except more of the same.

That approach works for classes that are stable or growing. However, except for a few slight up-ticks, FF has been sliding for 20 years. No new engines are available. Almost no new cars are being built. In fact, "superbikestore", an active member of ApexSpeed, probably parts more FFs on eBay per year than the Club has homologated over the past 5 years put together! That's not a slam on him, but it IS a forecast of where FF is inevitably headed if the basic paradigm is not changed.

Sure, new drivers can get into FF for $10-grand by passing around the dwindling number of existing chassis. But I would venture to say that they are nearly all going into Regional racing, while I am here to talk about reviving some growth on the National side of the class. IMO, the only way to do that is to offer an attractive package at a price potential buyers see value in. Does the present default VD at $42K meet those criteria? It would appear not, since as far as I can tell, they aren't selling any.

That "attractive package" is, again IMO, going to have to include newer auto engines and probably a m/c engine option if it is to spark some growth. Resting on its laurels isn't going to take FF anyway but further downhill.

Stan

[Don Denomme]

As others have suggested, I think that we should put a hold on ANY new SCCA classes for a minimum of two years. Let's stop looking for the latest and greatest entry level class and stabilize what we have and see what succeeds or fails.

As I understand it F1000 was an optional approach proposed by owners of outdated FC's. There are still people out there working on their conversions. The class has yet to show any real participation numbers and IMHO these cars are already outdated. Does anyone really think that a converted FC is going to keep up with a Stohr or Phoenix? And I'm talking equal driver skill.

Also, as has been pointed out, does anyone really believe that you will see long term competitiveness in either F1000 or the proposed F600 with an Ebay engine? I have a close friend who ran the NHRA JR Dragster series with his son and daughter. It too started out as a cheap entry level class running a Briggs motor. He finally bailed when the price of an alcohol burning single piston motor hit $12,000. For a lawn mower motor?

I agree that MC motors have more sex appeal than automotive engines. I personally love the sound of a good Ninja bike under full throttle. But, while sex sells, will people pay $40,000++ for it? Some will. But, that's not entry level.

I've been invloved with two SAE classes over the past several years while working at a race shop. What they found to be the greatest challenge, and greatest joy, was the designing of the chassis and suspension and being able to make improvements from what was learned from the previous groups. In general, they considered the enagine as the 'lump' in the chassis that ran the thing.

They would drool over the FF/CF and FC's that were in the shop. They would study the chassis, the body work and ask questions about set-up, etc. Never did they show any interest, one way or the other, in the power source.

As Steve pointed out, the best bang for the buck could indeed be a Zetec FC. For my money, the best bank for the buck as an entry level formula class is FV. I race FF and CF and have never owned either one of these cars, so I have no particular axe to grind.

If I knew a young person who wanted to improve their driving skills and had a lot of money to through around, I would suggest Formula BMW or the Skip Barber Series. If they wanted to spend some money and play with the cars as well, I would suggest FV, FF/CF or Zetec FC. These are all classes that presently exist.

While I also believe that a new class should be looked into, let's do some real research without the rose colored glasses, and not just jump into another class that could be out priced before it even gets off of the ground. Perhaps there is something that can be done to improve the existing classes. We will never know as long as the majority of our energy is spent hurling dung against the wall and seeing what sticks.

If you're not familiar with the law of 'Unintended Consequence". look it up.

This is indeed the Silly Season.

[Greg Mercurio]

Yo, Stan, you talkin' ta me?

This SCCA "Club" is having an identity crisis of epic proportions. And it gets worse every time we change CEO's. Did anyone really read Jim Julow's column? More BS. SCCA can't figure out whether it's a club, a Pro series sponsor, a carmaker, or whatever. What it is TRYING to be is all of these: everything to everyone.

But what it does best is provide an damn fine umbrella for us to race under.

The new Editor of Sportscar underscores my point. There's no room for Regional race coverage, but there's plenty of space for Pro, Rally, and advertisers.

Now with ANOTHER new class on the horizon, the Club distances itself even further from it's current base with hopes of replacing the disappearing base with newbies. An endless circular chase.

If we want ot jumpstart Formula Ford, or Formula Continental, why not stick a real cam in, update the valve train, and change the carb for a side draft. Instant 140HP(Kent) or 165HP (Pinto SOHC) with a lot lower stress. Then they could race at parity with Zetecs without trying to derate the Zetec.

'course that may not be complex enough for the members that seem to need sexy...

[Dennis McCarthy]

Stan,

Since I have 2 engines needing rebuilds, what can be done with the present 2.0 Pinto in the near term to increase longevity?

[Rick Kirchner]

Don - long rods.

And then there's always the 2.3.... long rods, hydraulic valve train, roller cam, and many more zillions made. I bet for every 2.0 I see in a junkyard I see 10 2.3's.

Oh yeah - it has the same bolt pattern....

[Don Denomme]

If SCCA would like to be the NASCAR of road racing they should take a closer look at their program. It's quite simple really. Here are our classes and here are our rules. Take it or leave it.