F1000 Gel-Coat vs. Paint

[Richard Dziak]

Fellow racers:

I have placed my order for a new F1000.......all of you have been helpful in the past to assist in my final decision to buy the new F1000. I have asked the builder to employ several suggestions that I have gotten here at ApexSpeed, so essentailly your expertise is going into my build.

Now I need some addtional help. The new F1000 will be offered in a gel-coat finish. The standard colors are white, blue, yellow and red.

My question is this, and perhaps there will not only be racers, but professional body work/painters who race to answer these questions:

What are the positives/negatives of gel-coat vs paint?

If I want any other color like silver, it would have to be painted.

What should I do? and What would you do?

Gel-coat or paint?

I am considering either a red gel-coat or silver paint.

The builder has offered paint at his cost, painted by his professional painter, a base and clear coat, and at my expense, while the gel-coat poses no additional costs.

Added: If painted, I am told the the gel coat bodywork would be pre sanded somehow to bond the painting..........

Richard Dziak
Las Cruces, New Mexico

[Mike Devins]

Richard,

My experience is that unless the part has good strength with out the gel coat the surface will crack. Most gel coats are very brittle, my personnal preferenc is for paint in a non metalic color that can be easily touched up.

Mike

[Scott Dick]

Hi Richard,

I would Gel Coat verses Paint. The Paint I believe is alot heavier. Are you buying one of Matts cars?

Good luck

Scott Dick

[carnut169]

Wouldn't the paint just be over the gel-coat? I don't know much about glass, but paint....

Anyway, flex additives can be mixed into paint. The paint shop I use (Autoglo) showed me a piece of trim they painted and then tied into a knot- no cracking or peeling. It also helps to absorb debris that hits the car.

[SteveG]

Richard,

I ran my car in gel coat for a few years mostly because I was lazy and paint doesn't make the car or driver faster. I just had the pieces painted a month ago and I gotta tell you, the black paint looks way, way, way better than the black gel coat ever looked.

And now I can really test the theory that paint isn't faster than gel coat.

Steve

[Richard Dziak]

Carnut169 wrote:

Wouldn't the paint just be over the gel-coat? I don't know much about glass, but paint....

Here's what the builder stated on the paint....

"If we know the car will be painted, we will use a sandable primer gelcoat".


Keep your responses and expertise coming in......looks like a split decision so far. I will use the expertise here to make my final decision.....thanks everyone.

Richard Dziak
Las Cruces, New Mexico

[Stan Clayton]

"If we know the car will be painted, we will use a sandable primer gelcoat."

If you want anything other than a monochrome in gelcoat, I suggest you take the builder's advice, Richard, and then have him squirt some nice paint on your new beauty (sounds to me like he's offering terrific post sales service!). I've painted over gloss gelcoat and I'm here to tell you it is a pain and that in my personal experience the paint does not stick as well as if it had gone on a proper primer gelcoat. Good luck! Stan

[sidney]

Not to jack the thread, but the Stohr we saw was silver with black highlights, now Richard is talking about silver. Our cars have always been silver, but maybe it is time for a change. BTW, I'd opt for the primer gel coat and paint, that is the route we have gone in the past and seems to work great.

We have to opposite problem, seven or eight layers of paint over a gel coat that is cracked in places. Lots of sanding in our future!

Good luck with the new car. Maybe we will see each other at Pueblo some time?

[GTS_CEL]

Your not in an either or position at the moment, you can go with the gel coat to begin with, that will give you time to decide on a color and graphics package you may want down the line, When the gel coat is getting a little tired looking you can easily paint over it as long as it primed before the paint, plus adding the flex agent (as mentioned) when you do paint will help all the more down the road to keep it from "staring"...

[Richard Dziak]

Scott Dick asked:

"Are you buying one of Matts cars?"

Scott:

Yes, I have ordered the new Phoenix FK1-07 from Matt. Over the last year, I have looked at the motorcycle engine class race cars, and during the last several months, I have been active on ApexSpeed trying to complete some due diligence as to research on the F1000. I don't want to favor any particuliar build team, or producer of F1000 cars. I contacted 4 major players in this new Class. Some of the builders never answered e-mail questions, others did and left me hanging. Matt Conrad at Phoenix, answered every question, either basic, stupid, or questions that involved his time and research. He did a very professional job working back and forth with e-mails. He was quick, prompt and always gave me straight answers. When I thought I was smarter than him, I was always proved wrong, but he understood my concerns for a major purchase. It's not everyday that someone goes out and spends $45,000 to $50,000 for a race car. Some racers have the big bucks and disposable income. So he met my heavy demands to work with me. I believe that he is incredibly honest and went out of his way to help me make the final decision for me, the new Phoenix. I am convinced the he will build a quality product, what I call the best of the best. He will personally deliver the car to me, and will do some extras. It was a long and hard decison, but ultimately it's the Phoenix. While we are getting excited about this class, I never wanted to make the purchase as an impulse purchase. Believe me, I asked tons of questions. He answered e-mail from the shop, from his home always in less than 4 hours. So I have the utmost confidence. We never played telephone tag back and forth and all of his e-mails are archived. While he spent lots of time, and other builders just shrugged me off, he gets the sale. I am excited to get the car, but not impatient. He will build the car at his pace, and deliver it when totally ready.

I appreciate everyones input here on ApexSpeed who answered some of my dumb questions. I appreciate the insight from fellow racers and thats what makes this website so special. So thank you fellow racers, thank you Matt Conrad and Phoenix Race Works LLC in Phoenix.

I will have lots more questions and will let everyone know what the new car is like, and I will be honest and forthright like Matt Conrad. As a businessman myself with high ethical standards, I found Matt Conrad to be the same. In fact I give allot of credit to Matt for keeping everyone up to date, the updates that he has provided here on ApexSpeed as his project continues into a final product. Of all the F1000 builders, he has shown us and given us more information on his product and progress than any other car builder.That in itself, meant allot to me. I expect to take delivery in Mid June 2007.

Now keep those gel-coat vs paint opinions coming. I need the advice and Matt knows of this thread. He is an expert, but is willing to learn and get other peoples opinion. In the end it's my decision on gel-coat vs paint. But your comments and input are very important. Many heads are better than just mine. I am not a expert and the learning curve has been a very steep one, just as it was with my Formula Ford, Formula Continental and now the new Phoenix FK1-07....I know it will be awesome.

Richard Dziak
Las Cruces, New Mexico

[carnut169]

Just put the ARRC on your schedule Richard....

(and congrats. the phoenix looks sweet)

[Matt Conrad]

Richard,

Your comments are greatly appreciated...and truthfully...I'm as excited as you are for this new class and the new F1K.07 car...and speaking of which....

We've kind of been a bit slack in posting new pics so I downloaded some more from the camera tonight and I'll start posting a few of them now....in Car Building.

Matt Conrad
Phoenix Race Works, LLC

[marshall9]

Richard,

Matt is good people, and Congrats on the new car. One thing about Matt is that before all this came about, he can tell you the story, it is interesting....Matt is a racer like you, and when he was "just a club guy" wasn't a high budget/spend what it takes to win type either. He developed his cars with more elbow grease than money, and was very successful doing it. I think this carries forward into the whole F1000 project, and you made a good decision. The customer support will continue to be superb, even well after you take delivery. I have seen it first hand.

Oh, and before I forget....go paint!

[S Lathrop]

The primer gelcoat is the best way to go. I used that type gelcoat on the '94 Citations and have had excellent results.

It is much easier to paint over. It has not developed surface cracks like regular gelcoat, the kind of cracks that either can't be painted over or reappear immediately after painting. I also thing that repairs are easier and better with primer gelcoat.

I think that the builder should be complimented for offering that as an option. I don't give the customer any other options. From a builders point, it is a problem because the gelcoat has a shorter shelf life and some times is harder to get.

[Matt Conrad]

Marshall,

Thanks for your comments as well. Every time I see my old car on the track I want it back...and I won't ever forget how I got my start in racing....with an old (but good) car, a flat-bed trailer, zero budget, and a lifelong dream to do it.

Whenever I think back to the first few times I entered real races (not track day events) it still gives me butterflies in my stomach....but the thing I will never forget is a local racer out of Tucson, AZ named Michael Williams. Mike shows up to the track with a "paint-challenged" late-70's pickup truck, a home-built trailer (that I believe doubles as sleeping quarters) and a late 80's Swift SE3 FC car that he probably bought new. He's not the fastest....but he gets the most out of his limited equipment. He and his dad do all the work on the car and he beat me the first few times out. Back then it really bothered me that this low-bugdet operation beat me....but I now realize that Mike (and guys like him) are the heart and soul of Club Racing.

Matt Conrad
Phoenix Race Works, LLC

[Scott Dick]

Hi Richard,

Congratulations on buying Matt's Phoenix FK1-07. I also spent some time talking to Matt at his shop. He is doing a first class job. Since I have been racing for the past 10 years I have seen many cars come and go. His knowledge was top notch and has great enthusiasm about his new car as he should. He has designed a great looking car and I look forward to seeing it on the track. I am contemplating buying one also. Matt is very much customer oriented and that will take him to a different level in the car building business.

Good Luck
Scott Dick

[Richard Dziak]

Scott:

I totally agree. If anyone is really serious and considering a new F1000 class car, I really don't think that you can find anyone better in customer relations than Matt. As I stated above there are other cars sellers out there and they may have sales departments, middleman sellers etc, but none of them matched up to Matt @ Phoenix Race Works. If the car is anything like his customer relations, it will be a great car. I suspect and as stated above, I sincerely feel that he will deliver the best of the best. Based on what I saw in my diligence to select a car, Phoenix for me was the absolute best choice. I am convinced of that. He never pushed for a sale, and was always there to answer many, many questions. He gets a AAA+ for that. Can't wait to get the car, and be one of the first five to get one. I guarentee, if its what I think it will be I will be one of the best advertisers for Phoenix Race Works and their FK1-07 F1000 race car.

Back to paint vs gel-Coat.........what paint do you suggest?

Brand....?
Quality......?

or

Do I just select my color and leave it up to Phoenix's own painter for the brand, quality etc. What do you think?

[Dennis McCarthy]

Steve,

What do you consider primer gelcoat?

[R. Pare]

Primer Gelcoat is exactly that : a gelcoat that the manufacturer produces specificly to act as a primer for paint.

[Phil Picard]

Having painted cars and then having Re-gel-coated cars, there is no question. Hands down gel coating IS the way to go. The only draw back is prepping old body work. you do have to get down to the original gel coat. BUT once thats done its a snap, you can fix your mistakes on the fly while applying. you can cover more imperfection's, It wears better over the season. Doesn't scratch or chip to primer or what other color is below.
Outside of the aluminum parts of my (new to me) car, its all being prepped for gel-coat.

Never heard of "Primer Gel Coat"

[Richard Hybels]

Never heard of that. Only my cockpit section is painted and I prefer no paint for the weight. So how do you re-gelcoat?
Richard hybels
club ford

[preform resources]

Thin it down add wax additive spray on like paint ,then sand & buff not worth the aggravation me thinks





Dave Craddock

[Dennis McCarthy]

Dave,

Those were the old days.

Thin no wax gelcoat 50 percent with Duratec High-Gloss available from

www.fiberglast.com , catalyze 1-2 percent and shoot like enamel.

By the way you only need to prep by DA sanding to 60-80 grit, works fine.

[preform resources]

I've used the duratek high gloss additive a couple times in repairing moulds,I guess the real problem I have is putting more brittle stuff over existing brittle stuff on a thin laminate,just my thoughts.
Dave Craddock

[AJWALKER]

You can also use Duratec Gray Surfacing Primer as a gel-coat option. It eliminates the minor telgraphing of the ply against the mold surface. The part comes out of the mold already primed. Just a quick wet sand with 400 scotch brite and paint.

http://www.fibreglast.com/showproduc...tegory-22.html

[Richard Dziak]

In my research of Gel-coat vs. paint, I ran across the following website that I thought might be of interest to others considering gel-coat finishes. The website links below, are to one of the top sellers of gel-coat finishes and colors. They offer a wide variety of different colors and you will quickly see that no matter what color you choose, the costs to gel-coat are the same... from the price lists on this website. The only thing you need after reviewing this website is a good imagination of the various colors that one could use in the final design and color scheme of the car. They offer hundreds of colors....and you might have to hire an interior designer just to figure out how you want that beautiful Formula race car of yours finished.

Here's the links:

https://www.minicraft.com/aboutus.htm

https://www.minicraft.com/retail/fantex301_320.htm

Hope anyone of interest finds this site helpful in color selection.

[Matt Conrad]

Our composites person says one of the reasons that some colors can cost more is that you actually have to shoot two colors. He says some of the colors (like red and yellow) can be somewhat opaque unless you put a second coat underneath....and the color you put underneath affects the shade of the main color.

Also, in talking with him, he feels that customers may be disappointed with the amount of work it takes to keep the gel coat nice and shiny. Most modern paint systems have UV inhibiters built into them, and gel coats do not. I've never owned a car that had a gel coat finish so I don't know, can anyone shed some light on this.

Matt Conrad
Phoenix Race Works, LLC

[formulasuper]

When I bought my 83 Ralt RT5 SuperVee about 6 yrs ago it was still in unpainted red gel- coat condition & it was a little faded, as can be expected of a 17 yr old fiberglass surface. However, it was still in good condition & I suspect if it had been kept coated in a good polish/wax protection it would have been even better. I lightly sanded the gelcoat & primed & painted with acylic enamel & it still shines up real nice to this day. I've had no paint adhesion problems.

[Richard Dziak]

It is my understanding that the new FSCCA Formula car is a gel-coat finished car. Since there are several cars out in the field. Perhaps one or several of the owners can comment on how well the gel-coat finish has held up in the FSCCA Formula car. Let us know in regards to fading of color, possible stress cracks in the bodywork, and repainting if you have done that.

I guess the question still arises, Gel-Coat or Paint??????...... for the final product and finish of a Formula race car.

[Lincspeed]

It's been my experience that gel coat finishes are generally heavier than a part made with a sandable primer and a thin paint job.

Clark

[Richard Dziak]

Clark:

Any idea of how much more weight is added using gel-coat vs paint on Formula car such as an F1000? Will a few extra pounds on the car really make that much of a difference?

[Rennie Clayton]

Clark:

Any idea of how much more weight is added using gel-coat vs paint on Formula car such as an F1000? Will a few extra pounds on the car really make that much of a difference?

It's a few lbs over an entire car, but those kinds of details become important when you start getting more competitive. Anything you can do to pull weight out of the car (especially up high) pays dividends in the long run. We're very careful about that even on our Atlantic, and we have much more HP than an F1000 car. If you only gain 1 tenth per lap, that's 2 seconds over the course of a 20 lap race...


Cheers,
Rennie

[preform resources]

Richard,boat hulls are extremely thick compared to race car body parts,they dont flex locally like when whipping your body apart during a pit stop or your bits blowing around in the paddock or storing your bits when at home during cleaning or repairs to something else that broke. Gel coat always looks good at first ,after a couple offs or mishandling it will start to show wear, it will uv degrade and when you remove your decals at the end of the year you can see a difference,Matching paint colors to gel coat is not as easy as using some factory paint code and painting a repaired panel,personally I would'nt reccomend repainting with gel coat either to me it's just one brittle coating over another as far as thin body panels go. Gel coat has a slightly higher specific gravity than paint but paint has voc's(solvents) in it and they disappear during drying. and remember that when you damage it or your sponsor wants his color on it, the paint shop will sand and prime and paint over you gel coat anyway.
Dave Craddock

[Richard Dziak]

Good points....when I spoke to an auto refinisher, he suggested that if I would go paint, that a flexible paint should be considered, the same as on a plastic bumper of a newer car. He stated that when they paint a newer car bumper they have to use flex paint because the plastic bumpers flex all the time and regular paint is too hard and will crack. I realize that the gel-coat has a tendency to fade over time. I also realize that the car will be stored in a garage out of the sun 90% of the time except race days.

As for the weight with gel-coat vs. paint, I enjoy the sport and am never really competitive, so the 2 extra seconds on a 21-24 minute race does not really matter in my case.

The bottom line, it just seems there are so many opinions on gel-coat vs. paint and it gets confusing and hard to decide which way to go. Matt Conrad's Phoenix F1000 is standard in a gel-coat finish, just like the SCCA FSCCA Formula car, so I can't second guess Matt's wisdom here, or his intent to produce the car in a gel-coat finish. I am sure that he has done his homework. But I see that he has asked questions on this topic also. I have to seriously weigh the extra costs of a possible $1500-2000 price tag to paint the car. So I get confused with all the responses. At my racing level, I don't have any sponsors who request their colors on the car, so that won't matter either.

I appreciate all the input, and it appears that gel-coat vs. paint is a very controversial topic as witnessed here on ApexSpeed. Some say go gel-coat, it's the only way, while others say paint. The responses are almost 50-50. The professional auto refinisher advised me to go gel-coat and that was after his poll from 4 refinishers.

I thought I had made a final decision on the gel-coat finish, but I feel some hesitation on this issue at this point.

[R. Pare]

Richard:

As in so many decisions to be made on a cars options, you have to weigh factors such as cost up front, maintenance (both short and long term), and looks.

On the costs side, gel coat is definetely cheaper up front - which is why the factory offers it as the baseline finish. The issue then comes the long-term maintenance and the looks.

If you want something that will look good forever, forget it - neither will do the job. Both need to be maintained, and just how much work and cost is involved depends a lot on how many off-roaders you do.

Touching up a painted surface is a lot easier and more durable than trying to fix most gel coat problems ( usually cracks and spyder webs from rocks). You can spot-dab and sand smooth the usual small pits from rocks in either finish, but fixing surface cracks is a ton easier in paint.

There's a lot more, but to keep this quick, I'd recommend that you start off with the gel coat initially to help on the up-front cost and spend the extra money that paint would have cost on seat time. After a year or two, when refinishing is necessary, switch to paint.

[Mark H]

I see that they do bass boats.... Us rednecks love that glitter!

Did you say "what will a few pounds extra matter"????

[Richard Dziak]

Actually Mark.....I asked what would be the extra weight saved on paint vs gel-coat. One response was a savings of 2 seconds on a 20 lap race. If I really need to reduce weight, I can personally run a few extra miles each night after work, eliminate 1 gallon of gas when filling up the Formula car to save 8 pounds, or take a good _ _ _ _ before racing the car. If I do any of the above then I figure the gel-coat finish vs.paint, the weight reduction is a wash. Just kidding of course.

R.Pare......good suggestion to go with the gel-coat first, then go paint if I have to in the future. That suggestion makes sense. We all need more seat time. I plan to race the car in about 4-6 SCCA events annually, the balance open track days, with limited cars on the track. Thanks.

I am sure there is still other opinions out there. Comments and suggestions are most welcome. I want the new Phoenix F1000 to be the best, but also need to control some costs, that's why this subject keeps surfacing. This is a learning experience for all.

[Billy Wight]

I can personally run a few extra miles each night after work, eliminate 1 gallon of gas when filling up the Formula car to save 8 pounds, or take a good _ _ _ _ before racing the car.

Just think of how fast you could be if you did all that AND saved weight by going with the paint.

[Richard Dziak]

Thanks to everyone who responded on this question.

Decided to go gel-coat.....final decision!!!

[Phil Picard]

Good Call!
3 of our cars are being gel coated as well.