Engines Update

[Matt Conrad]

Just a short note to update everyone on our engines and related items....

• 2006 Zero-Mile GSX-R1000 Engines are still available. These are brand new and come complete with throttle bodies, wiring harness, ECU, rectifier and airbox. Only three remain and we cannot get more 2006's....$3,850 includes shipping via Forward Air to a terminal in your area. The 2007 pricing will be $5,000 including shipping.
• F1000-Ready Crate Engines. Deleveries are scheduled to begin next week so if you want one you should get your order in very soon. These engines are professionally re-built by George Dean's Racing Engines and come dyno-tuned and ready to install.....they start at $4,995 including core.
• Dry Sump Systems. These proven oiling systems are back in stock and include billet aluminum pump (dual scavange) and pan, custom pick-up and mounting bolts. This is the same system we will install on the prototype F1K-07 car. $1,295 Includes US shipping.

For more information call 623-581-3222 (shop), 602-799-1922 (cell) or e-mail us at info@phoenixracecars.com.

Matt Conrad
Phoenix Race Works, LLC

[Mark H]

I see that the 2007 engines are a little over a $1000 more, is this because they will make more HP?
I think that your engine deal is great for the racer and these engines are still cheaper than a F2000.
BUT one of my concerns about this class is that if you want to run up front and have the most power you will have to buy a new engine every year, negating the hook that the engines are cheaper than the F2000 engines are?
Suzuki is in a HP/speed battle with the other bike mfg's to win races so it stands to reason that every year they will crank out more power.

Maybe somewhere down the line the rules could be amended to let the older engines be upgraded to keep them from becoming obsolete.....Like my iron head Pinto will be soon!!!

[RobLav]

Mark,

That's where the "revered" SIR comes into play.

Frankly, for the money, I'll continue to find engines elsewhere and use the same dry sump, clutch, etc as long as i can. I bought my 400 mile 06 R1 for $1199.00.

[carnut169]

07's are not that much better than 05-06 which is a little better than 03-04, which are a little better than 01-02s.... but, even if you purchased a new engine every year- you still get to sell your old one which should be good to go w/ only a year on it so your cost is not as much as it might seem. Also factor in your new trans... what would it cost to rebuild the Pinto and the Ld200?

That, and the 07s are maybe 5hp or so up on the 03-04 once you add in a power commander and open exhaust. Its not a HUGE difference and is certainly one that can be overcome with aero, chassis set up and driver skill.

SIR, not yet.

[formulasuper]

Like Sean says, the price of one of these engines includes a six speed high tech tranny & accessories. Can't compare that to just the Pinto engine alone. Also, buying the latest year's engine isn't very expensive since these things show up on the used market with only few hundred miles on them within a month of going on sale at the dealers! Just check Ebay!

[Charles Warner]

I see that the 2007 engines are a little over a $1000 more, is this because they will make more HP?
I think that your engine deal is great for the racer and these engines are still cheaper than a F2000.
BUT one of my concerns about this class is that if you want to run up front and have the most power you will have to buy a new engine every year, negating the hook that the engines are cheaper than the F2000 engines are?
Suzuki is in a HP/speed battle with the other bike mfg's to win races so it stands to reason that every year they will crank out more power.

Maybe somewhere down the line the rules could be amended to let the older engines be upgraded to keep them from becoming obsolete.....Like my iron head Pinto will be soon!!!

The class is not even up and running and we are already seeing concerns about "technology creep!" This is just part of the beast when you do not fix the engine specs regardless of age - ala the PINTO. Hopefully the SIR will keep the creep in check but I doubt it as there are other issues than just HP. You'll have to live with this fact and, if the extra few HP or ft-lbs of torque are important to you then you'll have to pony up the bucks to stay in the hunt. Rules that "allow" older engines special dispensation only open up a real can of worms.

[Daryl DeArman]

Are the 3 generations of GSXR motors mentioned above identical externally? If not, one must factor in the possibility of fabricating new mounts, new exhaust system, perhaps a different drive sprocket location, different airbox location, wiring harness?

I still think that in order to reduce the amount of motor changes one should consider a rule that requires the eligble engines to be updated every 5 years. For example 2007-2011 engine must be 2007 or older. From 2012-2016 the engines must be 2012 or older.

A rolling date? Been there, done that, the CDCRA use to use a 2 year old model rule. You still have "a motor to have" every year. All it does is make it a liitle easier to choose the right one and the supply of crashed bikes is a little larger.

Great concept, love the cars. I really hope the class takes off.

[carnut169]

The motors are slightly different (where you bolt it in) but if you design your car properly all you need is different adapters. Sprockets etc are all the same.

Charles- what does it cost to run an Atlantic motor at the pointy end of the FA grid? How long does it last? Hard to imagine a FA driver arguing economics.

For about $3,000 a year you can buy an almost new current year motor. Sell your old one (1 year old) for about $1500. Net cost each year is $1500 for a fresh motor and trans. It simply does not get any cheaper than this to run a race car and you have the latest and the greatest each year (if you want). Being that I don't have any runoffs plans of yet I'll keep my 04 motors and give up that 5hp. Just picked up a spare 04 for $1500 inc shipping and it will last a min of 2 years... I'll sell it for a min of $750 and my cost is $375 a year. Used to cost me more just to refresh the head on the Pinto.
Sceptics do your worst but you've definately got your work cut out for you.

[Bob Wright]

<That, and the 07s are maybe 5hp or so up on the 03-04 once you add in a power commander and open exhaust. Its not a HUGE difference and is certainly one that can be overcome with aero, chassis set up and driver skill.>

I might chime in here- the effort to match a Pinto and a Zetec involved no more than 2-3 hp at most and created a firestorm of controversy. I suspect 5 hp would render the lower hp car almost uncompetitive at the pointy end.

[RussMcB]

I still think that in order to reduce the amount of motor changes one should consider a rule that requires the eligble engines to be updated every 5 years. For example 2007-2011 engine must be 2007 or older. From 2012-2016 the engines must be 2012 or older.

Hey, I think I like this idea. Any problems with it?

On a different note, I bought a very low mileage 2005 ZX-10R engine for $699 yesterday! Yep, I'm glad I decided to convert my car and run in F1000. Can't beat prices like that.

[smsazzy]

<That, and the 07s are maybe 5hp or so up on the 03-04 once you add in a power commander and open exhaust. Its not a HUGE difference and is certainly one that can be overcome with aero, chassis set up and driver skill.>

I might chime in here- the effort to match a Pinto and a Zetec involved no more than 2-3 hp at most and created a firestorm of controversy. I suspect 5 hp would render the lower hp car almost uncompetitive at the pointy end.

Tell that to Mark Jaremko who almost won the CSR title with a DSR car......

[carnut169]

I might chime in here- the effort to match a Pinto and a Zetec involved no more than 2-3 hp at most and created a firestorm of controversy. I suspect 5 hp would render the lower hp car almost uncompetitive at the pointy end.

Bob I believe we are talking about apples & oranges here. The difference between the 04 & 05 (for example) motors is very slight... the Pinto & Zetec are totally different motors. Equalizing a dual overhead modern engine and a single overhead cam engine built in the 70's.... for example the two Suzukis weigh the same, have the same bore & stroke, same crank, same case. They have slightly different heads and airflow management and you will see a 5hp improvement at the very top rpm range... otherwise you have equal torque and hp (very close) all the way up. Proper gearing, aero, setup, weight, and other things can make up the difference. I'd even bet that a dyno tuned 04 would equal a non- tuned 07. Then if you want you can kill the power to the charging system (+3hp) for a "boost"...

[Bob Wright]

Ok- my knowlege of the bike engines is limited- you're probably right that 5 hp at the top end with all else the same is probably not that great a deal.

[Mark H]

Not trying to start anything because I know that the F1000 guys are kinda protective and any thing that is not positive can create some ruffled feathers.
But Matt said in the first post that on the dyno the 03-04 engines made 5 hp less than the 05-06 engines. Then he is selling the 07 for $1200 more, all I can take from that is that the 07 makes 5hp more than the 06??

That makes 10hp over the 03-04? That is the creep that Charles is talking about. Watching someone just walk away from you down the back of RA or the front of RRR after you tried so hard the rest of the lap catching back up stinks! I always like my car to "handle down the straight" makes it easier on me in the corners...cause I don't need the aggravation on my lazy style.(I wrote that by the way)

Having said that!@%$*& Sean's idea of dumping the old engine every year IS the way to go and still much cheaper than the old out dated low tech slow Pinto..C I'm sensitive too.

[Rennie Clayton]

Tell that to Mark Jaremko who almost won the CSR title with a DSR car......

[threadjack]


Stephen,

I, for one, am quite surprised that Mark Jaremko did not win that race outright. HPT is a go-kart track without any real significant straights to give a CSR an outright speed advantage.

Stohr DSR w/Jaremko
950 lbs, ~170hp, ~80lb-ft
3.800 lbs / (hp+tq)

Swift 014.a Viking CSR
1400 lbs, ~240hp, ~135lb-ft
3.733 lbs / (hp+tq)


Advantage CSR by a whopping 0.066 lbs / (hp + tq), and those numbers for Mark's car are with a 2001 engine, not even one of the late-model units that's lighting a fire under everybody's arse in this thread.


[/threadjack]

Charles- what does it cost to run an Atlantic motor at the pointy end of the FA grid? How long does it last? Hard to imagine a FA driver arguing economics.

What does it matter, and how does it relate to this thread? Now if you'll excuse me, I have to go get my daily cash enema...


Cheers,
Rennie

[Mike Devins]

Rennie,

Why would you add hp and torque since hp is a result of the torque at a given rpm.

950/180 = 5.28 hp per lb

1400/240 = 5.83 hp per lb

sound like a 10% advantage

If both motors ran at the same rpm then the comparison would make sense.

Not saying that your wrong but may just need to be enlighted.

Mike

[smsazzy]

[threadjack]
Stohr DSR w/Jaremko
950 lbs, ~170hp, ~80lb-ft
3.800 lbs / (hp+tq)

Swift 014.a Viking CSR
1400 lbs, ~240hp, ~135lb-ft
3.733 lbs / (hp+tq)


Advantage CSR by a whopping 0.066 lbs / (hp + tq), and those numbers for Mark's car are with a 2001 engine, not even one of the late-model units that's lighting a fire under everybody's arse in this thread.

HP = RPM X TQ /5250

So your point does not make sense. You would not add the two together.

You would divide weight by HP to determine the power to weight ratio. In this care it would be:
Stohr DSR w/Jaremko
950 lbs, ~170hp,
5.58 lbs / HP

Swift 014.a Viking CSR
1400 lbs, ~240hp,
5.83 lbs / HP

The difference would be equivalent to a 1400 lb car with 250 HP, or conversly a 950 lb car with 162 HP. So I think the point here is two fold, I will concede that part of your argument is correct, and that it is a closer matchup then it appeared when I first thought about it, however, I think it shows that contrary to the arguments above, you can still run at the pointy end of the grid with an 8HP disadvantage if the driver and equipment are up to task...

Now, naturally, nobody is going to just give up 8HP and say, well I equalize it out by being such a fantastic driver, so I can see how some engine control rules would benefit for sure.

I like the idea of doing a set of years that are allowed. as was suggested before. Now that said, I have not purchased an F1000, nor do I plan to until I can be sure it will not suffer the same fate as the DSR class has with technology creep..... I am sure I am not the only one either.

[Daryl DeArman]

Maybe the motors don't change as much as I believe. I haven't compared motors side by side, my information (post '96) has been limited to the '06 bike in my garage and the rags I subscribe to where marketing hype sells the reader on why the newer bike is better than the older. Basically, cylinders/motor canted further forward, more compact gearboxes, better electronics (different harnesses).

I think the bike engine route is the way to go to save money/gain performance over the pinto. However, I don't care what kind of motor you put in something--constant change is expensive--testing and fabrication costs time and money. I don't think you should try to utilize SIR's for the same reason. Have some stability with the rules, don't try to keep everyone's equipment competitive forever, but don't make it grid fodder the next year either.

[carnut169]

What does it matter, and how does it relate to this thread? Now if you'll excuse me, I have to go get my daily cash enema...


Cheers,
Rennie

My reply was in response to Charles's tone in his post. (He has never been a huge F1000 advocate...) Anyway, my point was that if new motors can be had and sold to acheive a net cost to the racer of $1500 or so $$ per year then who cares about technology creep? Even if you doubled my figures its still less than the cost of maintaining a Pinto. Its certainly not, in my opinion, an emergency necessating sir implimentation.

[Rennie Clayton]

Mike,

Let's first stipulate that we're bench racing.

That being said, IMO, adding torque numbers gets you a more realistic napkin simulation because it gives you something that's closer to area under the power curve. Ideally, you'd take the area under the power curve and the amount of time spent in each gear to derive the amount of work being exerted over a typical lap. High HP engines with low torque numbers are usually high-strung units with peaky, narrow power bands. If you have the same high HP, but also high torque to go along with it, that indicates a lower RPM engine with a broad power band. Anyway, I've also spent an inordinate amount of time with Bosch LapSim tweaking numbers, and this phenomenon is borne out there. This is also why, properly done, gearing is calculated for power under the curve instead of peaks.

It's also how Arne Loyning expresses his benchmarks when comparing engines / cars.


Cheers,
Rennie

[Rennie Clayton]

My reply was in response to Charles's tone in his post. (He has never been a huge F1000 advocate...) Anyway, my point was that if new motors can be had and sold to acheive a net cost to the racer of $1500 or so $$ per year then who cares about technology creep? Even if you doubled my figures its still less than the cost of maintaining a Pinto. Its certainly not, in my opinion, an emergency necessating sir implimentation.

Sean,

Yes, I agree with the financials. I do, however, have my reservations about just how blase one would be about doing an (potentially) all-new engine installation every year.

A Pinto rebuild is 80%-100% of the cost of an Atlantic rebuild, last numbers I was aware of, FWIW. Rebuild intervals, like opinions, may vary.


Cheers,
Rennie

[Mike Devins]

Rennie,

I tend to agree but watching the race the FA based CSR was walking away from the Stohr on the straights.

The part that amazed me was that the FA based car with the wider track was not dominant in the corners. Must have been the wieight.

Mike

[Charles Warner]

Charles- what does it cost to run an Atlantic motor at the pointy end of the FA grid? How long does it last? Hard to imagine a FA driver arguing economics.

Sean,

I'm not "arguing" exonomics - simply stating them. (And, sorry if the "tone" of my post is disagreeable.) My point is that I heard and read all about how wonderfully inexpensive and equality-based this new class was going to be with motors that would not lend themselves to technology creep and would last forever and run without oil (or Slick 50) and make tons of HP forever without rebuild (tongue somewhat planted in cheek here) and then, before a real showing of the cars has occured, we have posts regarding the annual changing of the HP guard and some are worried about the "newer" motors making more HP. What did anyone really expect?

This is racing! It does, and always will, cost money to go fast. How fast do you want to go? I don't care how well the rules are wtitten - he who has the most bucks usually wins. Regardless of class. There's no such thing as perfect equality and there never will be.

You say I have always been against the class. In a way, yes. I did not see a need for another open wheel class. We had DSR for those who want to use a MC engine. However, we now have the class and we should make the most of it. Still, all should realize this class is certainly not the panacea it was touted to be as far as "cheap" racing. There may be "cheap" racing but there ain't no "cheap" winning.

[Mark H]

I think that we did need a MC powered open wheel class. At the start it looked like it was going to be for old Van Diemens that were left out dated by the '98+ cars, and maybe some old Super Vee's. Almost kind of a regional thing or regulated FS.
But it looked to appealing for some and they started building new cars, sorta like DSR has become.
This is not bad and the different engines aren't eather...I think its cool seeing Honda, Suzuki etc all racing in the same class. As far as the engines "trading in" your old engine every year looks like the way to go?

This class has created a lot of POSITIVE buzz in open wheel circles, something that has been lacking in the last few years so that can't be bad!?

Good luck to all, now lets see some of these cars race!

[carnut169]

However, we now have the class and we should make the most of it. Still, all should realize this class is certainly not the panacea it was touted to be as far as "cheap" racing. There may be "cheap" racing but there ain't no "cheap" winning.

Hey!~ We agree on something!

Nope, racing is definately not cheap. Not even close. Even racers with the smallest budgets could probably buy a house in the mountains, take up flying, or buy a shiney new exotic instead. I know I battle with this very thing as I'm sure many racers do.

What I believe F1000 can offer is an exciting, modern race car that is maybe a little less expensive to run, depending on the operator. Smash it, put new tires on every secession, tow all over the place, pay for entry fees, race fuel, data systems, cameras, safety equipment... your still looking at a huge annual budget.
Run 1 set of tires all year, an 04 motor, pump gas, sleep in your trailer... the costs come way down (welcome to my world). But compared to just about anything else, even with cost savings above, this is still one expensive hobby.

Another thing we can agree on though... its all worth it.

[racer27]

Another thing we can agree on though... its all worth it.

Above quote just about says it all, just wished it was worth it at a lower cost.

Since the thread has already been Hi-Jacked and now goes into cost, heres my two cents.

It looks like the F1000 (FB) Class is not going to be the cost effective FC alternative I'd hoped it would be (Regardless of if engines are upgraded every year or two). Maybe we need a true non-winged spec class, alla F600. Unfortunately last thing we need is more segmentation (Classic Catch 22). In addition, I know spec (Or if you prefer a super tight Formula) is a dirty word to some, but it really is the only way to contain costs.

IMHO, F1000 will cannibalize entires from other classes (FC, FA, FSCCA, ETC). I don't believe it will bring in the "Budget Conscious" racer, or the Racer stepping up from Karts. I believe having a class that appeals to those audiences is critical to the health of US Open Wheel club racing.

I'm going to race my Pinto (At least until it expires) and see how the conversions compete with the purpose built. I'd like to see what the true long term costs are. What is the reliability. Safety Record. Lastly, the value of both the new cars and the conversions.