NEW Loyning National FF Engine

[Art Smith]

above average, 116.3 HPc (see hp/torque curve below), NEW Loyning National FF
engine with aluminum head (02-317 block & 02-287 aluminum head) for sale for
$12,500 plus shipping from 93555. the engine includes: a number of customer
supplied parts and requested changes; a Swift style ARE dry sump pan with
provisions for three AN-10 scavenge fittings and Loyning windage tray & scraper;
a water pump block-off plate; fuel pump block-off plate; two freeze plugs with
provisions for cooling water hoses with XRP AN-16 clamshell fittings; three
point oil insertion; a lightened flywheel; and a 7" Tilton clutch. the engine
does not include an oil pump, water pump, or fuel pump.

the engine was originally built and dyno tested in early 2003 with a customer
supplied Elite core and new Loyning aluminum head. after sitting in the
customer's shop / DB-1 for more than two years without being raced, the
engine was returned for rebuild in 2006 to insure new engine performance and
above average performance to the eventual buyer. after break-in on the dyno,
the engine was tested on the dyno to characterize its performance. the engine was
tested with Sunoco 111 fuel, 20wt synthetic oil, a custom three scavenge
stage TDC oil pump, a check valve in the crankcase vent line to enable vacuum,
a Stewart electric water pump, a customer supplied exhaust system, and
NGK-8 spark plugs. dyno results are the average of three back-to-back
50 rpm/sec pulls with the oil temperature at 200°F to statistically improve the
accuracy of the results.

the engine with a set of "up and back" one piece stainless tube primaries
(NO 4:1 collector/tailpipe) is $14,000 bundled plus shipping
from 93555.


Art
artesmith@earthlink.net

[Jon Horgas]

Does it have an SCCA crank, and forged pistons. What rods are in it. When is the last time you raced this motor. What is it's 'pedigree', ie notable wins, etc... All sounds good. How is it's performance on track.

[Ian Lenhart]

$1500.00 extra for an incomplete set of headers that are a 4-1 design and of an unknown brand. Am I missing something? I'm interested in finding out more about the cool shipping container/engine stand pictured.

Ian

[RacerDave51]

Ian, the e-address will take you to Kurt Wullenweber--he makes plastic shipping crates.

leraplastics@earthlink.net

Sorry for the hi-jack

[Art Smith]

surely someone needs a new engine that makes good power. if the engine needs to make more power to sell, that can be arranged. for an additional $500 ($13,000 total plus shipping from 93555) I'd be willing to include "one or more parts" and installation instructions that should get the engine to 118.2-119.2 HPc. the "one or more parts" were not tested in the engine in January. HOWEVER, the "one or more parts" have been tested in AND are part of the baseline configuration of my three remaining engines.

the "one or more parts" is not a set of jets for C-44!!


Art
artesmith@earthlink.net

[Joshharvey]

Forget the horsepower, what is the torque curve? When does it peak, and how long is it at that level, and when does it drop off? What is peak torque?

[John LaRue]

Does that include the "gas porting" tricks?

[Art Smith]

horsepower and torque curves are provided; assume the additional horsepower comes in around 4500 rpm; is fully in place by 5800 rpm; and is reasonably flat to 6800 rpm. the additional torque can be backed out with a calculator.

anyone wanting an engine with gas ported pistons will have to buy it elsewhere!!


Art
artesmith@earthlink.net

[Joshharvey]

I would love to see the flow numbers for this engine. I have raced with some of the top drivers and they never saw 120hp from a 1600.

[Mike Allison]

have a flywheel and clutch.

Mike

[Art Smith]

Mike-

thought you might notice........


Mr. Harvey-

I'm guessing if you took your car to HPT your story would change and probably your appreciation for the engine being offered for sale. while it's unusual for test conditions and a hp/torque curve to be provided here at the forum, I wanted to provide potential buyers with objective data for their consideration. with all the FF National championships won with Loyning engines, there just might be something to their blue paint jobs??

it's my sense that preoccupation with flow numbers will lead you to a non-optimum solution. the dyno is the only way I'm aware of to determine objectively if an appropriate balance has been struck between flow, fuel transport, and swirl over the power band of interest.


Art
artesmith@earthlink.net

[Joshharvey]

Art,

I am always in appreciation of good horsepower in any engine. I have also seen dyno sheets from Ivey and Loyning many times, from customers that have spent a lot of time and money with both engine builders. The reason I ask for flow numbers is the fact that I have never seen a FF 1600 SCCA legal engine make 120hp. These engines have not changed at all in several years. All various tricks have been tried like gapless rings, cutting the rings down, ignition, etc. The only thing that I have ever seen make a FF engine make more power was a fuel we were running several years ago that was toxic and horrible to drive behind, and caused flames like a formula mazda to come out the back. It is also a fact that aluminum cylinder heads make less horsepower than their cast iron counterparts, due to the heat loss in the combustion process. The other way I have seen a FF engine make 120hp is with backcut valves, which is not legal. Of course, there is always a difference from dyno to dyno, which can explain hp differences also.

[Art Smith]

bump to the front of the grid...............


Art
artesmith@earthlink.net

[Jon Horgas]

[ the dyno is the only way I'm aware of to determine objectively if an appropriate balance has been struck between flow, fuel transport, and swirl over the power band of interest. ]

Art.

Maybe I'm wrong here, but I thought the only way to find out if "an appropriate balance has been struck", is to go pound asphalt, and see how the motor pulls from mid corner out, and wheather or not it revs, and pulls all the way down the straight in top gear! I've seen motors that were very unimpressive on the dyno, be virtually unbeatable.....on Av gas. Horsepower may me nice, but I will take a torque monster and drivability. Just my experience, and opinion.

I had an older VanDiemen that was a slug down the straights. I was a sitting duck to the Citation of John Larue, or Danny Rienharts Swift. 10 extra horsepower would not have made up for the 5mph I was down on the straight at Mid-Ohio, Road America, and IRP, but ask me how the car worked mid corner, and exit.

[M.L.Sauce]

You are right Jon.In my opinion the best dyno in the country is the front straight at Road America.If your car can pull that hill and nobody passes you you have a winner.All other info or data is just propaganda and marketing until it hits the track.I have had motors that the builder said was as good as it gets on the dyno but on the track they were mediocre.I also had a motor in 92 that was good on the dyno but not great and it was good as I have ever had.

[Art Smith]

more data for the discussion; I had no idea selling a good engine would be this interesting...................... the engine being offered for sale has not been represented as a sure fire bet for the front row at the RunOffs in the fall. that said, I'm guessing there was more than a couple of competitors at last year's RunOffs that could have used 119.2 HPc and the torque implicit in the number........ it's an above average National engine assembled by one of the best engine builders in the country. for those looking at buying a new engine or needing more horsepower I'd encourage you to call the better engine builders to check pricing and availability for a new engine (no core). the prepared ARE Swift pan, three point oil insertion, and freeze plugs are a bargin straight-up for an oil pump and water pump.

to answer earlier questions about the bundled primaries offer the first enclosed picture shows a better view of the primaries included in the bundled offer; the primaries are shown mounted on one of my mock-up/fit-check engines. the tubes were designed on a computer and then bent by an aerospace bending firm. the tubes are made of 0.049" wall 1.50" OD 304 stainless, not the 0.058", 0.065", ..... wall tubes found in the marketplace. up and back primaries are "high" weight and the thinner wall mandrel bent tubes help minimize the rear roll moment. the tubes have clearly not been cut & fit together with a string from U-bends and then welded. length differences between the tubes is measured in cc's/fractions of a cc, not inches. the tubes and bends are smooth and continuous; ie: they have none of the fit issues and weld zone artifacts of the cut & piece approach to fabrication. if there's any doubt in your mind that the exhaust gas can tell the difference I'd encourage you to examine the inside of your primaries with a borescope!! the non-axisymmetric deposits and coloration from heat at the begining and end of bends and before and after welds are objective evidence that the gas can tell. the dyno can also tell the difference between welded development hardware and mandrel bent tubing for the same design!! the exhaust flanges are CNC milled from 304 stainless plate to assure fit and a flat sealing surface to the head, not flame or water or grinder cut.......

the second enclosed picture shows a set of primaries in a welding and cutting fixture. the fixture was fabricated by an aerospace tooling firm from 1/2" and 1" steel plate. all welding and cutting is done in the fixture to assure quality and minimize variance between difference sets of primaries. all welding is done by a FAA certified repair station using 308 stainless rod. while not as pretty as some welding in the marketplace, pretty doesn't contribute to making horsepower!!

the final enclosed picture shows an alternate implementation of the primaries that are included in the bundled offer. the picture shows a better view of the integral EGT (exhaust gas temperature sensor) ports and a set of EGT's installed. for someone like me that doens't have thirty years of experience reading sparkplugs at the track, EGT's are a must have. EGT's provide a means to assess jetting and timing for each cylinder over the complete range of rpm in the car under load on the track. with the variation in barometric pressure, temperature, and vapor pressure day to day and track to track, it is simply punative to run an engine as received from any engine builder. tailpipe color is a little easier than sparkplugs for me but it's the average of four cylinders; it won't tell you the inner cylinders are running hotter than the outer two......................................... EGT plates that mount between the head and the primaries are better than nothing and probably are costing you more than you realize. in the final stages of primary development moving from too long toward the answer, the final 0.100" was worth 1 HPc!!! three identical sets made plus or minus 0.020" to validate the solution yielded a clear winner on the dyno!!

for the non-believers in the objective value of the dyno as a development tool, a development version of the primaries was track tested exstensively in 2005. the driver, car, shocks, engine, oil, radiator, and exhaust system won AND set lap records almost everywhere they raced; unfortunately MidOhio was one of those places the team didn't prevail.

it's been my experience that most of the time you get what you pay for and the primaries offered in the bundle are clearly not from the local muffler shop. ask your exhaust system supplier when was tha last time they tested hardware on a dyno back-to-back on a RunOffs quality engine. the additional information provided here is not and should not be construed as an advertisement or offer to sell; it' NOT. to date only a couple of sets have been made available for use on other people's engines. the bundled primaries are offered to minimize the possibility of having some muffler shop specials strangle the engine's performance; win-win transactions are more fun for everyone!!


Art
artesmith@earthlink.net

[Larry]

When something as desirable as an engine comes up on this board and it fails to sell quickly, it comes down to price. You may think the price is fair, and it may represent a fair deal, but the market (us) is looking for a better deal. We've seen plenty of engines sell here in a day or two because they were priced aggressively.

Larry Oliver
International Racing Products

[Ian Lenhart]

more data for the discussion; I had no idea selling a good engine would be this interesting...................... the engine being offered for sale has not been represented as a sure fire bet for the front row at the RunOffs in the fall.

At that price, it better be the best engine known to man.

Ian

[TimW]

I would think the market for a $12.5k Kent is perhaps 2-3 guys in the country who 1) can spend that much on an engine and 2) take advantage of it if it really is a world beater. Good luck convincing them they need your motor...cause they pretty much all work pretty closely with their builders already I would imagine.

Tim

[Jon Horgas]

Tim you are exactly correct, but i think it is even less at 1-2 guys. I received an email from Art regarding my post, and he belives his motor could have helped me make the pass by being closer on the straight. As I recall, there weren't too many instances where horsepower had anything to do with it. My bad call to not exploit the tire rule (that was in effect back in '96) and take the 5 second penalty to change the RR tire ti a harder compound cost me the Runoffs, but I wouldn't change it again if the same opportunity presented itself, because it would have been cheating, and it was not meant to be. Horse power was not an issue. We did have the pole at the Runoffs by over a second, and I think it was chassis, not horsepower that put us there, even with the stock VD exhaust. John Hill was a rocket ship (yes, an Arnie motor, and sorry for blocking you John) and set fast lap, but didn't win. This debate about a $20k development motor with all the cool dung in the world will not make you win a race if you can't drive, and if you can drive the 119.2HPc isn't going to help much. I sit way down in the car, and I can duck my head and direct air into the airbox and get 125HPc on the straight!

[Art Smith]

any number of folks have encouraged me to provide/post the engine's history so here it is as best I know it:

the engine was purchased on 12/28/2000 as part of a race ready DB-1 from Dale Beeler in Ohio (see photo). at the time of purchase the car and engine were the then current lap record holder at IRP (07/1999 per advertisement on the Formula Ford Underground). based on records that came with the car, the engine was new in June of 1996. at the time of its rebuild and dyno tune by Elite Engines Inc in December 1999 the engine had approximately 14.5 hours of use. the records indicate the engine was raced three or four
times per year between 1996 and 1999. per invoice 99602 dated 12/21/1999 the cost of the rebuild and dyno tune was $3171.50. when purchased by the current owner the engine had less than an hour of use since rebuild.

the attached graph shows the Elite dyno data from December 1999 when the engine was rebuilt, Loyning dyno data from October 2002 prior to being rebuilt, Loyning dyno data from February 2007 of the engine in its new configuration that is for sale, and the engine's estimated performance with the additional part(s) that could be made available for additional cost. the performance data in prior configurations is provided to address concerns and curiosity from the marketplace, NOT because I think there's any value or
insight to be gained. the configuration and manufactor of the exhaust system used in the December 1999 testing is unknown and my testing has shown conclusively that it's material. the cast iron head that came with the engine, its matching intake manifold, and Weber were sold to a Club racer and replaced with a Loyning aluminum head, matching intake manifold, and Weber. the cast pistons that came with the engine were replaced with 3.189" forged pistons. other changes were clearly enumerated in the initial post. if the engine as purchased in December 2000 can win in the Central Division and set the lap record at IRP in the hands of an able driver, I'm guessing the obvious improvements in area under the curve and peak (torque and HPc) bodes well for anyone needing a new above average National engine................


Art
<A href="mailto:artesmith@earthlink.net"]artesmith@earthlink.net[/EMAIL">artesmith@earthlink.net

[Art Smith]

the 2008 RunOffs FF "mystery lump" is revealed as none other than Loyning 02-317, the short block from the engine offered for sale here at ApexSpeed. after sitting in my shop for more than a year and a half unwanted, unloved, and almost certainly under appreciated, the short block acquitted itself extremely well at this year's RunOffs. airfreighted into Topeka as a rental overnight on Wednesday, the shortblock was assembled into an engine in a parking lot on Thursday using the head, oil pump, and water pump from the customer's expired race engine. with no engine dyno testing, only enough time on a local chassis dyno to set the jetting and two hardship laps Saturday morning to check for leaks, the engine performed without incident in the FF National Championship race Saturday afternoon (3rd quick time on Goodyear 430's with inadvertantly adjusted rear toe on lap 4). installed in the car for qualifying, we probably would have been shown how much of the track at HPT supports three wide FF racing! the short block less water pump and oil pump (as before) with only jetting time on the
chassis dyno, hardship laps, and the National Championship race on it is now offered for $6500 FOB Ridgecrest 93555.

the aluminum head (02-287), rocker shaft assembly, valve cover, intake manifold, and Weber remain for sale for $1500 FOB Ridgecrest 93555. the head is an affordable and solid head for National competition or serious Regional competition; it is not a head to take to Road America with expectations of beating the "boys" at their own game !!

the short block and head sold as a package are $7500 FOB Ridgecrest 93555. hopefully next time a dyno sheet from Loyning Engines is enough to convince folks in the marketplace ot the quality of the hardware being offered..........


Art
artesmith@earthlink.net

[TIM CLOWATER]

Art Email sent about the head

[Art Smith]

pending receipt of funds, the head(02-287), intake, and Weber are sold! I will accept back-up offer(s) in order of receipt until funds arrive.



Art
artesmith@earthlink.net

[Art Smith]

head is SOLD!

the short block is still available at $6500 FOB Ridgecrest. the short block is
a far better value in absolute performance/performance potential terms.
assembled into an engine in a parking lot using a non-Loyning head, oil
pump, and water pump, the short block demonstrated at the RunOffs the
ability to go toe-to-toe with the best in the country (3rd quick time on 430's!!!)
with NO engine dyno tuning. keeping in mind the circumstances, performance
for a fact was left in the shipping container................


Art
artesmith@earthlink.net

[Art Smith]

anyone interested in the engine should contact me in the near future. if the engine isn't sold by the middle of March or so, the plan is to disassemble it, sleeve it, and then machine the block and crank to my current baseline numbers. the engine and it's container in the way for another year isn't a viable option. it's also my sense there will be no rental market for Road America for engines that will only make 120-122 HPc!

Art
artesmith@earthlink.net

[Art Smith]

the 02-317 short block is no longer for sale. rather than give away (ie: sell considerably below cost) an engine that finished 3rd at the 2008 RunOffs after starting 10th twice, the engine is being upgraded to my current race engine baseline configuration: nodular cast iron sleeves; +0.005" OD forged pistons; custom ring pack; updated crank clearances on both the mains and rod journals; an updated dry sump pan; and several other minor configuration updates.

to recover at least some of the cost of the current machining and assembly, I thought it might be interesting to dyno an engine with a public record with first original forged pistons as raced at the RunOffs, then a set of the previous cast pistons using the same rings and bores, a set of the unfortunately approved +0.005" OD forged pistons (in larger bores) using an equivalent set of top-of-the-line rings with the same dry cylinder bore drag and end gap as used in the engine at the RunOffs, and finally the +0.005" OD forged pistons with a ring pack seasoned with some hot sauce from the local Mexican resturant (the green stuff). paraphasing Robert Duval's famous line from Apocalypse Now, "there's nothing like the smell of real data in the morning" !!

toooooooo many projects on my "to do list" so results won't be availabe today or tomorrow; hopefully early to mid-summer...............

Art
artesmith@earthlink.net

[na94]

We have a saying at work: 'In God we trust, everyone else brings data!'

[Malfred]

I am new to the FF forum & ran accross this posting.

Does this FF 1600 Short Block have the Forged Crank shaft & forged pistons in it ?

Thanks.

m.

[Art Smith]

Malfred-

it has the original forged pistons and a Loyning prepared cast iron crank; forged cranks are non-compliant with the GCR for FF as currently written.

Art
artesmith@earthlink.net

[BWC54]

Malfred-

it has the original forged pistons and a Loyning prepared cast iron crank; forged cranks are non-compliant with the GCR for FF as currently written.

He probably meant the SCCA approved cast steel crank.

[Malfred]

The Scat "SCCA" stronger crank that every one talks about.

[Malfred]

So, to make sure I understand, it does NOT have the SCCA approved alternate scat steel cast crank, but has a stock ford cast iron crankshaft that is prepped by Loyning ?

m.

[Art Smith]

Malfred-

correct, it and none of my other engines have Enterprises steel cranks! cranks done by someone that know what they're doing are fine for even the pointy end of National and RunOffs grids as long as the flywheel is kept off the track and the driver doesn't need to shift at 7500rpm with a 50% probability of success............................

YMMV

Art
artesmith@earthlink.net