New Cars

[Steve Demeter]

Anyone buying / buildoing a new new (2007) FC car, Pinto or Zrtec?

[RobLav]

Citation is building new Zetecs.

[D.T. Benner]

PR-1 sells Mygals. Bobby Orgel-559-277-1300 and Piper probably can build you one.

[Matt M.]

I know a few '07 VD's have sold. One is heading out to Indy shortly.
Price of a new VD zetec roller is $41k (with the pound 2x the dollar!!) +ship.tax.etc Mygales are $10k more. Both cars have improvements over previous years - the VD probably more..Mygales are trick - but you'd be stuck if you took a corner off.
Engine from Sandy (or Steve!) ready to go plus the "other" stuff is almost $15k

You can get the VD details from Bill at GTP 781-393-6887. Tell him you want the fast matt limited edition '07. (Has a small NO2 bottle fitted into the fuel cell - wired to what looks like a radio button) - He'll throw in a free bald spot bead seat too.......

Plus plenty of Genuine VD parts to spare.......try searching the paddock for anything but a VD wishbone.....

[S Lathrop]

The first Citation 07 Zetec FC is about to start testing (next week) and the second one is under construction. We should have 2 more frames completed over the next several weeks. That will be 4 cars. The next is for F1000 and the last is speculation.

It does appear that SCCA is not very anxious to have Zetec cars in club racing.

[Joefisherff]

Steve, do you say that because they made it tough to get it homologated or ? It's kind of late to close the barndoor!

[S Lathrop]

Steve, do you say that because they made it tough to get it homologated or ? It's kind of late to close the barndoor!

Homologation is not the issue. For this year at least I should have built a Pinto.

[Purple Frog]

My guess... ECU mapping, intake restriction.

[DaveW]

It does appear that SCCA is not very anxious to have Zetec cars in club racing.

The plan all along, stated clearly by the group of people (Rick Silver, et. al.) that did all of the legwork for allowing the Zetec engine into FC, was to bring the Zetec cars in at a distinct disadvantage, and then GRADUALLY bringing them up to as equal as possible with the Pinto-engined cars. This was done this way so as to not disenfranchise the vast majority of (Pinto-engined) FC's.

This is going pretty much as it was envisioned, with approximate parity hopefully being attained in 2008.

[KevinFirlein]

the problem is the weight which was added after the test , was never tested, and was contrary to what we were told by Dave Gomberg at the end of the test

[DaveW]

the problem is the weight which was added after the test , was never tested, and was contrary to what we were told by Dave Gomberg at the end of the test

Please explain - apparently I am out of the loop.

1. Which test? When was it?

2. How much weight - originally the weight for the Zetec cars was set to 1240 lb (still is in the GCR). What is it set to now, and what weight were the Zetec cars last tested at, and when?

[KevinFirlein]

A group of us tested the zetec vs pinto around thanksgiving at summit point. In attendence were myself , sandy shamlin , eric oseth, Dave Gomberg, Kris and Joe Kaiser, Rick silver driving his pinto, Andy Shaulferberger( or however its spelled) driving his pinto, Rob Nicholas driving K-hills zetec, Doug Kniffin driving his zetec and Len amato driving his zetec. John Larue was scheduled to be there with his zetec but was sick and couldnt make it.

We spent the day testing various zetec configs and running comparisons test with the pinto. Rick wound up doing most of the pinto testing even though he was fighting carb freezing. It was rather cold.

All comparison test were done with both pinto and zetec at 1220 lbs. the weight was 1220 becasue we used to more consistent hankooks that are much heavier then GY or even hoosier. Rick, rob , and Andys cars were run same setup and gears in each car with the exception of shock valving. Doug and Len had the same suspension and wings setups but ran the cooper spec gears. doug ran short stack and Len ran tall.

By the end of the day there was zero difference in accel between the pinto and zetec. 3 straight dead heat drag races proved that to everyone there. During the lapping sessions that were run the pinto actually had a .7 mph higher top speed ; tested with a speed gun, but there wasnt a way to get the zetec more up top without giving it across the entire range. We werent really all that worried the difference anyways.

Rick had concern over the partial throttle response of the zetec so Eric and Sandy made more changes to help that.

At 3pm Dave G arrived and asked for 25 lbs weight to be added to the zetec. When the day began everyone agreed to make the cars equal at equal weights but addidng weight for dave was easy enough. Rob was sent out with the car at differnt fuel levels to test the effect. Fuel levels was changed by 4 gals which with the CAM2 purple is actually 25.6 lbs. Fuel isnt the best way to test weight obviously but time was a factor. I have no idea what the lap time difference was as I ; along with sandy, was working the speed gun. Dave G should have that info.

When day was all said and done I went to thank rick for comming out and say good bye. Talking with rick and Dave, Dave said he wanted to have no more then 20 pound difference and possibly even a 10. the goal was to get rid of the handicap all together.. I kind of shrugged since the stated goal was to make thje cars equal at equal weight but I havent got a problem with addidng some weight to the fuel injected car.

When the rules for 07 were listed suddenly there was a 30 pound handicap. Have no clue where that came from since it was never discussed. thats my pojnt. The restrictor and map are listed as tested which left the cars equal at equal weights hoever weight was added that was never tested. Who knows why.

the test should have happened a year ago and alot of people gave their time and equipment; along with the track giving us a free day, for a rule to be added after the fact.

Would also have been helpful had SCCA along with the rule package would have published how it was derived and a review of the test.

[DaveW]

Kevin, thanks for the explanation.

Not to be argumentative, and I am just speculating, but the added weight fits my understanding of the intent of bringing the Zetec-engined cars to parity AFTER the 2007 Runoffs, not before.

[Dave Gomberg]

DaveW has it right. Kevin, I'm afraid you didn't understand what I meant. The weight was dropped from last year's 1240 lbs to this year's 1220. At the same time, the restrictor was made larger and the map was reworked. The current combination is in line with the stated intention to reduce, but not eliminate, the Pinto advantage in 2007. We may or may not make a mid-year adjustment in 2007. After the Runoffs, we will make what is expected to be a final adjustment (but the CRB certainly reserves the option of further adjustments if necessary). The goal still is equality in 2008.

Dave

[R Nicholas]

From memory the zetec was .3-.4 tenths slower per lap w/ 25lbs.

Is it written in stone somewhere that the zetec must remain handicapped until post 07' runoffs?
If we know how to make the car's equal, why not? By holding the zetec back its hurting FC national numbers.

Rob Nicholas,

[KevinFirlein]

Dave G what I heard is exactly what you told me. Also why did you tell us to test at 25 lbs and then make the rule 30 ?

The July 05 fastrack clearly states that a final adjustment will be made "July 1 2007 to make the engine formula and car performance equal" and not after the runoffs.

[S Lathrop]

The only time schedual for equalization that has been published said July 2007 would be the day, and by implication the 2007 run offs would be a heads up event. That schedual was published in July 2005. To do a new design, that is a reasonable lead time.

I can't really argue with the date being 2008 if that was what was intended. But some one better get control of the process so screw ups like this don't happen in the future.

When will we know what exactly what the 2008 rules will be? And how much faith can we have that will be the final statement?

Also, given the new heads for the Pinto, isn't every thing up in the air because it will be most of the year before that change plays out. There the options are more horse power and much better CG vs more weight. The potential top end of a more powerful Pinto could be something that the Zetec can not over come.

Now FC has the same problem that production racing has: what is the winning combination? If you want to maximize your chances at the 2007 run offs, you will need a Zetec car and a Pinto car available. Because Topeka is such a unique track, you will need test time with all configurations.

With a new design car, I am caught in a no win situation. If my car is only just competitive or slightly less, then potential customers will write the design off. If on the other hand I over come the handicap and prove to be competitive, then the rule makers will keep the handicap in place because we are not suspose to win.

[greg pizzo]

Given that the zetec has been "tuned down" quite a bit ....... even if the new Pinto head turns out REALLY GOOD ....you can bet it will..... then seems like there is still plenty of head room for the zetec to be turned UP a bit to catch up .....

it would be nice if the Pinto could be turned up to the Cooper zetec spec ..... and forget the restrictor all together !!!

we are not talking LOTS of HP here .......what 20HP max more like 15HP
it would be nice to be able to run the Cooper Spec HP some day in FC ..... and all accross the board !!! such a nice balance of HP vs cost ....now LOST to being Dumbed down ........

just my $.02

[Douglas Kniffin]

In my opinion, equalization is and will be a mess. The formula should be changed to Cooper Spec Zetec for National Level competition and the pinto should become a regional formula but, its not like the SCCA gives a crap about open wheel cars anyway.

[greg pizzo]

that maybe BOLD ...... but I like it !!!

Doug for President !!!!

[R Nicholas]

In my opinion, equalization is and will be a mess. The formula should be changed to Cooper Spec Zetec for National Level competition and the pinto should become a regional formula but, its not like the SCCA gives a crap about open wheel cars anyway.

Whats' a "Copper Spec Zetec" ??? Do they still make that car?

[Douglas Kniffin]

No, not the full spec zetec car. As much as I'd advocate that, it isn't realistic. I'm saying the 165HP version of the unrestricted and trueley sealed engine. Not the SCCA version which is costing thousands of dollars to manipulate already using the regular FC formula.

[Wren]

In my opinion, equalization is and will be a mess. The formula should be changed to Cooper Spec Zetec for National Level competition and the pinto should become a regional formula but, its not like the SCCA gives a crap about open wheel cars anyway.

do you mean just the map, or the whole spec car/aero/everything?

[Douglas Kniffin]

I think everyone knows that I prefer the spec formula but, I know that i'm in the minority on that account so I'm just talking about the engine formula.

[Matt M.]

Also, given the new heads for the Pinto, isn't every thing up in the air because it will be most of the year before that change plays out.

With 30lbs lost just in the alloy head - I'd say its going to be a year to have a pinto. BUT your still sitting with a time bomb behind your head. The thing is a dinosaur. The class needs the Zetec for longevity. I appluade the efforts put forth by everyone on equalization - more heart than I have for the class. Some day I'd like to see one person drive both engines though.


You guys know that the higher HP Zetec can run in FA right??? With the carbon tub cars. The times you want to turn for half the cash..... Probably a reason they are Carbon too..... Last thing they need in FC are a bunch of lawyers driving around with an extra 20hp..... SCCA's insurace company would have a fit!

[Matt M.]

Whats' a "Copper Spec Zetec" ??? Do they still make that car?

There you go Rob!!! Give it to 'em!

[R Nicholas]

No, not the full spec zetec car. As much as I'd advocate that, it isn't realistic. I'm saying the 165HP version of the unrestricted and trueley sealed engine. Not the SCCA version which is costing thousands of dollars to manipulate already using the regular FC formula.

I agree 100% all zetec's should be sealed, if you want to buy a junk yard motor fine, send it to the professional builder to be verified and sealed. At the end of the day it's cheep insurance against things that can't be checked at a normal national weekend.

Rob Nicholas,

[John LaRue]

In June 2005 the Zetec proposal was published for review and consideration by the FC community and SCCA membership. Pertinent to this discussion is the following paragraph:

The recommmended performance evaluation periods are, assuming the Zetec is allowed in National Competition for 2006: March 31, 2006 evaluate current winter national results to ensure Pinto superiority, no changes if confirmed; July 1, 2006 evaluate National results and amke a small appropriate weight change to reduce Pinto superiority; following the 2006 Runoffs make an ECU mapping change to further close the Pinto-Zetec performance gap for the 2007 season. On July 1, 2007, make a final weight adjustment which makes the engine formula and car performance equal.

Sportcar Fast track page F-123

There was never to my knowledge an alternative schedule published although it may have been discussed by the various boards/groups. In order to be fair how can anything but what has been published be followed?

Further, if the formula for parity is now available what good does it do to not adopt it? I would hope that everyone invovled is looking for fair and equal compeitition, not an artificial advantage for the 2007 season. As noted above, the FC numbers are challenged without further problems like this.

[R. Pare]

Now now, John. Don't start arguing logic here!

[Purple Frog]

Although I have already placed my bet for Dave to win the 2007 Runoffs in his old old '95 pinto Citation, I do believe the committee that Rick Silver headed up to design the "zetec incorporation into FC" proposal always did have the intention to have parity by the 2007 Runoffs.

I tried to go back to read the what seemed to be hundreds of emails that were passed about... but I scratched them about a year ago. When the committee was working (driving Rick batty) 2007 seemed like a long time away.

LaRue has shown the strongest argument to date.

I reminded Terry Ozment at the SEDIV annual meeting in January of the July (mid-summer) cutoff date for changes to the equalization formula.

[Steve Demeter]

Jeez I wasn't trying to reignite the Ztec debate.


Just wanted to have a little winter conversation about what people were up to.

[Purple Frog]

Steve,

And while we are at it... How do you really feel about the Runoffs moving away from M-O?

[Bob Wright]

The July, 2007 cutoff date and equalization is not an issue (we have it now thanks to the group at Summit Pt) until the new head appears in competition. At that point there will have to be another direct test, and who's going to do it? I know we can look at the dyno sheets and get the Zetec map close, but no one will believe it until there's a test on the track and seen on the radar gun.

I suspect our Pro Series will have this issue and solve it long before SCCA gets around to any changes. I'm confident the Zetec motor is up to the task of matching the new Pinto configuration with nothing more than ECU manipulation and maybe a larger restrictor.

[Matt M.]

On July 1, 2007, make a final weight adjustment which makes the engine formula and car performance equal.

Sportcar Fast track page F-123

With a new head for the pinto - that date should slip another year...??

[Steve Demeter]

Mr. Frog,

About like a root canal done with a rusty soup spoon.

Like it about as much as Tab liked transponders

And do not even ask about 14 & 15 year old drivers

[DaveW]

With a new head for the pinto - that date should slip another year...??

Remember - the SCCA always reserves the right to make additional "competition adjustments" whenever they think they're needed, so the July date, even if it were adhered to, doesn't mean absolutely no changes after that.

[Mark H]

There have been very few Zetec cars raced so far, cost and knowing that your going to be uncompetitive, how will the SCCA know where to set the final specs.? I think the same goes for the Alum. head. That I was firmly against because it was a marketing ploy by the engine builders to sell more work! The Alum. head cars WILL produce faster lap times but there won't be very many out there by July.

So with hardly any data on the Zetec, (there haven't been but a handful raced yet) and the Alum head clouding the data too.....Where and more importantly how will the SCCA make the final decision by July?

What I'm afraid of is that the SCCA will look at Alum head times and jump up the Zetec too much TOTALLY making my iron head (that I just paid a bunch of $$ for) JUNK!!

So I finally get a good engine and will have to go spend $4000 more on an Alum head to come back up to par!!

Maybe I can spray bomb my head silver for intimidation purposes?
OR
For sale, 5 hr. Elite cyl. head asking $4000? Gaskets and labor extra. Will trade even for Alum. head. They said that they are even in performance, besides the Alum head will warp easy. So here's your chance to dump it for a great, proven iron head!!!

[R Nicholas]

Dave,

Do you agree with the July date to a make change with the thought in mind of making it a "heads up " race at the 07 runoffs ???

I think most agree that the ecu map & restrictor are darn close but the 30lbs for the zetec is overboard.


Rob Nicholas

[R Nicholas]

What I'm afraid of is that the SCCA will look at Alum head times and jump up the Zetec too much TOTALLY making my iron head (that I just paid a bunch of $$ for) JUNK!!

Mark H.


Mark the Alum head will make the iron head junk regardless of what the zetec is doing.

Rob,

[DaveW]

Dave,

Do you agree with the July date to a make change with the thought in mind of making it a "heads up " race at the 07 runoffs ???

I think most agree that the ecu map & restrictor are darn close but the 30lbs for the zetec is overboard.


Rob Nicholas

As you said, the AL head makes the July date academic. It will probably make iron heads also academic.