Conversions

[Matt Conrad]

I'd like to start a new thread to get opinions on the value and competitiveness of FC conversions....both early models....and the newer cars.

We are very interested in offering conversions (turn-key and kits) but with no history of sales or any idea how competitive these cars will be....the value is somewhat of a crap-shoot. Obviously with the value of new turn-key cars at $45-$50K....my thought would be that these conversions could be valued around $30-$35K....just a guess.

Anybody feedback would be greatly appreciated.

Matt Conrad
Phoenix Race Works, LLC

[formulasuper]

Matt, I would think the value of a conversion would depend considerably on the age & condition of the original car. Like has been stated here previously, an older car can be picked up for around $10-15k & the engine, tranny, etc. sold off to finance the purchase of a motorcycle engine/tranny, diff, etc., With the owner doing his/her own conversion they should be able to have a track ready FC/FSCCA/FM smoker for a total of under $18k.

[RobLav]

My crap shoot is that a RF98-RF00 car, converted to F1000, will be in the $23K - $27K range.

It depends on the quality of the work and how competitive the car is.

I'd also say that the narrow track RF99 and RF00 are better candidates. The wide track cars will require a lot of front rim backspace to get the 8" rims to work, and those rims might interfere with the lower A-Arms. (My 5" backspace rear 8" FC OZ's interfere at the front lower A-Arms. The 3.75" backspace rear FC OZ's do not interfere with the lower A-Arms and would bring the car to the max width at the front.)

Early VD models are obviously more difficult to convert, but the package is still good. I'd say worth $15-$20K when complete. On these earlier cars, I'd look at improving the suspension motion ratios.

Also, a good conversion will probably take advantage of the wider sidepod allowed.

Like you say - a crap shoot.

[S Lathrop]

I think this is an excellent idea for a thread.

My personal opinion is that a conversion will be competitive, even a winner. But it will depend on how complete the conversion is done. How competitive a older conversion will be is anybody's guess.

To be competitive, you will have to take advantage of every thing the F1000 rules allow. That will require wheels, brake systems, new side pods, and diffusers. Chassis stiffness will be very improtant.

I am betting that I can produce a basic package that fits FF, FC and F1000.

My bet is that torsional regidity of the chassis will be the controlling factor. My cars are sneaking up on 6000 ft. pounds per degree but I think it will eventually take 8000. That is a complete car axel to axel. More torsional regidity means more mechanical grip which means less areo load and less drag to equal a lesser car.

Value is only what you can get someone to pay for a conversion. Winners have high value.

[Richard Dziak]

I have a RF93 Van Diemen for sale currently here at ApexSpeed.

Here's the link if anybody cares to look:

http://www.apexspeed.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20972

While I will definetely enter the F1000 class, I am having trouble determining whether to buy new, as I am down to Phoenix F1K-07 or the Stohr F1000.....

Matt at Phoenix has been spectacular at answering e-mails and has been very professional.

With new cars priced in the $45-$50 range, I am also considering the idea of conversion.

With the expert opinions here and advice, as a Regional ( age 55 ) racer for recreation, fun, and trying to be somewhat competitive, does, converting this car above make sense. I would have to employ a professional car builder, whether someone like a Matt Conrad or Steve Lathrop shop to complete the conversion. Will these shops remove and sell the components in the current car?

I am learning heavily towards the new F1000 from Phoenix or Stohr, however a conversion for a moderate price, professionally done, also attracts my attention, and I would assume that there may a "big" market for the conversion from old pinto engines to the new F1000 in light of rules for a stock engine, that can be bought in the aftermarket with low miles. I idea of an aftermarket engine for $1500-$2000 seems logical, as you one could purchase 3 engines for the price of a $6000 race prepped engine. Seems there may be a lot of opinions on this aspect alone. Many racers who race will not be mechanicially inclined or have the shop to complete this process themselves, and will require a professional to complete the conversion, while others may have the facility and tools and knowhow to make the conversion themselves. Bodywork seems to be another issue. On conversions, what bodywork, panels must be installed on the older VanDiemens? I have seen the Clark Lincoln drawing on sportsracer.net, that lookawesome in the design.

My bottom line for my RF93 VanDiemen would be $13,500 for an outright sale. What would the parts bring if I was to strip it down, into a roller, than modify to a converted F1000?

Any thoughts...as stated I am sure that many of my fellow racers that I have spoken with would explore the idea of converting their Van Diemens to F1000.

I hope that this response does not interfere with the overall question of conversion, but I feel that I wil get honest responses to help guide me in a proper direction. I continue my research and continue to ask lots of questions. I already have some idea on conversions from 1 buildr, but they are only in the preliminary stages of determining what a conversion should cost.

Richard Dziak
Las Cruces, New Mexico

[RussMcB]

Matt, I doubt I am a good person to respond to your question because I have a hard time relating to a race car purchase over $20,000. But, that is a reflection of my financial situation more than anything else. I just can't imagine buying a race car for $50,000 and then risking it all every time I take it out on the race track.

So, with that preface to give you my state of mind, I would MAYBE pay $25,000 for a turn key converted car, such as, a RF-00, if I knew it was high quality and would be reliable.

I guess you should discard my response because, in my present situation, I would not be a potential buyer.

I am impressed, however, with Phoenix's contingency program. If I thought I'd be winning races, that could affect my decision.

One last thought - anyone considering a conversion should talk with Mike Devins. He has specific experience and it would be a very worthwhile discussion.

[S Lathrop]

Richard;

At this stage of the game, I think your options are to convert it yourself or buy new. A 93 VD will not be competitive as an FC. The same issues that keep the car from winning in
FC will be present in F1000.

It will how ever give good service for a reasonable investment. Just going racing and winning are vastly different.

You need to decide what you really want to do. Any new car in a new class will be a lot of work. While every one who is getting involved in F1000 brings a lot of experience, we are all in for a big learning experience. That means you as a customer get to share in that experience.

[FC63F]

It is interesting to consider the competitiveness of a conversion + Kit versus a Phoenix/Stohr and similar. I think that one of the earlier posters suggested that just as a 93VD is no longer competitive in FC (at the National Level and maybe at the regional level) it will not be competive as a starting point in F1000. The reality in DSR is that conversions have been uncompetitive for quite some time and you need a Stohr/Gloria/Speeds and similar to be a player. There are few exceptions out there like a Staudacher but by and large the conversions and home builts just are not there. On the other hand, some people get more satisfaction from designing/building their own car than they get driving. Some of these are beautyful and innovative but they generally cannot compete for the win.

Given the above, for a while conversions will be Ok until the manufactures push a volume of cars out but once that happens - the conversion car especially if made with an older car (96 or older) is probably not a winner. For the owner of the 91-96 or so VD's the future is really to band together in a group like the Great Lakes Challenge where they can compete against similar technological machines and enjoy a stable technolical platform. There are a ton of 91-97 VD's out there and regionally they need leaders like Corey Collins on the Great Lakes Challenge and Steve Beeler or the East West Challenge to help get the cars out. In the case of the Great Lakes Challenge we went from 4 or 5 CFC's to 12 and we expect more. Granted that is not National Racing but we do have fun.

Finally - I wish I had $50K to put in an awsome zoomy modern F1000 (hopefully new) and what a gas it would be - but for the time being - I will live in the late 1980's in my 90 Reynard and have the most fun I can have. Lastly - I will be rooting for the guy who builds an awsome home built machine either a conversion or ground up to win.

David Keep

Reynard 90SF

[Richard Dziak]

David:


I am fortunate that I race my FC with the 1990-1995's which in the Rocky Mountain Division like the Great Lakes we run as Club Continental class......but are grouped with Formula Mazda, Formula Atlantic, Formula Continental and FSCCA Formula's. It's a fun group......it's a great class, and seem to all be well matched.

Richard Dziak
Las Cruces, New Mexico

[RussMcB]

I'm hoping my conversion car will be competitive in the CFB class.

[GearHead]

Hi, this is my first post here. ApexSpeed is a great forum and wish I had discovered it back when F1000 was first proposed, or earlier. Before replying to Matt's question, I'd like to tell you a little about myself and my interest in F1000.

Back in the early 90's while I was still a Mechanical Engineering student at VA Tech, I was on the engine team for our Formula SAE car. We started with a carburated Kawasaki Ninja motorcycle engine and converted it into a turbochaged / aftercooled engine with fuel injection. The transmission team took a Pulaski snowmobile CVT (continously variable transmission) and modified it to work with a four stroke engine powering our Formula SAE car. Our car, named Foops, was built with an aluminum monocoque body and took first place in FSAE's national competition in 1992.

Since then, I have enjoyed a career working with engines (mostly for marine & high altitude unmanned aircraft) and have two young, and very smart, children and a great wife. Between my Jr & Sr years, I took one year off to work for Sonny's Racing in Lynchburg, VA. Sonny's is known for IHRA Pro-Stock and Pro-Modified drag racing engines, as well as offshore applications. Sonny always wanted to hire an Engineer, but couldn't afford one. Since I didn't have my degree yet, and I really wanted to work there despite low pay, he hired me!

We now live in Charleston, SC (where I grew up) and are reasonably near tracks such as Roebling Road, Road Atlanta and VIR. I have an uncle who works as an Engineer for Michelin in the upstate, but I doubt he could get me any track time at Laurens Proving Grounds! But, I may ask anyway.

F1000 sounds like it was born from FSAE. Although I use to auto-x on a regular basis, I see club racing as something I would be very interested in as a next step. Not being in a position to afford a $35k+ race car, a low cost conversion (below $18k) would be a logical start. As my son gets a little older, this is something we could share in.

In my opinion, F1000 would be a great place for someone wanting to get their feet wet with Formula racing. As I understand the F1000 rules, this class will remain successful because it balances higher dollars of those who can afford to win (new cars & FC conversions) with increased participation from those (like myself) who will convert what can be afforded. F1000 suppliers need a few high dollar customers and the sport needs sufficient participation to continue growing.

[RussMcB]

Welcome, Gearhead. Glad you decided to pipe in. Look forward to seeing you at some southeastern tracks this year.

[Mike Devins]

So what is it that makes the older cars uncompettive?

Track?

Wheelbase?

Stiffeness?

Aero?

[RobLav]

Good post gearhead.

[Rick Silver]

Its too bad the F1000 rules changed the car width rules from FC specs. It basically means all late model FC cars will have to have new suspension to be converted. Are you F1000 guys dead set on the new wording? Remember the FC wording allows a max width only on the rear wheels but the fronts are open.

-Rick

[FC63F]

Great Question on what makes a difference at least in the FC ranks

Everything makes a difference - Each model year, improvments in Aero, suspension and chassis stiffness are applied a little bit at a time. I would be willing to bet that Dave W's Citation even though listed as a 95 is improved in many ways each year to the point it is probably very superior today when compared to 1995. Net, if two citation 95's were sold on the same day in 1995 and one went to Dave W and one went to the amateur market that when compared again in performance in 2007 - DaveW's car would be much faster and easier to drive. The facts are that most amateurs are not equipped to develop their cars on an aggressive, scientific basis - notice I say most - there are a few Dave W's out there but only a few.


To make a live example - my first FC was a Croslle 63F which had been serial #1 and the factory campaigned car in the UK. That car was replced in 1987/8 with the newer faster 68F as the factory ride - the 63 lauguished until it was brought over by Mike Rand who ran it a few times in factory trim who then sold it to another guy who raced it a few times before I got it in 1998. The car was a perfect example of 1986 technology - no diffuser, wings that were ineffective - and a rather flexible reach chassis. Net, we were not really competitive until we went through a huge effort over several years to stiffen the chassis, improve the suspension, develop a diffuser approach and incorporate Averill wing systems - the car after all that was 3 or 4 seconds a lap faster in our amateur hands. Howver there are limits to what you can do from a cost standpoint - the car cost $9k with a good engine - but I would estimate that we put another 9-10K into the car in updates and mods - would I have been better off with a newer VD with current development than building over time? Who knows - and we didn't have 20K to spend on a newer car at that time and we had fun all the way along - but I don't fool myself into thinking that the Crossle can run with a 2007 VD or Mygale etc.

Net - you can and should imrpove the breed when you own the car or you will be behind - but it will be very hard to make a 93VD be competitive with a 2003-7 VD aand not spend more than the newer car can be had for.

David Keep

Reynard 90SF

[RussMcB]

Mike, great question. I look forward to responses. Maybe I'll use them to alter my conversion plans. :-).

My gut feeling is that a 98+ Van Diemen, if it is near minimum weight, can be competitve with a new, purpose built F1000 car. However, 1:05's at Roebling out of the box is pretty impressive, especially considering the car has no development yet.

I couldn't tell you definitively what makes a 98+ car faster than an early '90's car, but whatever that is will surely be true in F1000, too.

So what is it that makes the older cars uncompettive?

Track?

Wheelbase?

Stiffeness?

Aero?

[RobLav]

Rick,

I'm still OK with the wording. If I was to start over again in the rules process, I would have made the body width the same as FC instead of the 150cm. But at the time, we all had consensus on the width. Also, not all modern VD's will have to change suspension. The narrow track RF99 and RF00 will not have to change the front A-Arms. And professional conversion kits being bantered about have the rear A-Arms being changed anyway.

David,

Good points on updating the chassis. In fact, I had Dave W's sister car for a while, and the updates to that car ceased in about 1999.

[S Lathrop]

DaveW's, LaRue's and Brewer's cars were originally built in 1994. We made major modifications about every 2 years. Only the frame and center body is esentially unchanged but we did change the belly pan attachment and thickness.

The entire suspension, including bell cranks (design and location), has been changed several times. We have changed brands and models of shocks several times. Shock valving has continuously evolving. The aero package has seen 3 major revisions, not to mention the number of tests.

Even now with a new car on the market, the cumulative changes are not enough to obsolete the 94 Citations. The lesson is that if you have a sound basic structure and do the development, cars will last a surprisingly long time.

As an example, our frames weigh less than 90 lbs and the only cracking problems we have encountered are related to the stress from the skid blocks. I did spend six months on the computer modeling the frame before I cut metal.

The biggest thing driving the evolution of a race car at this level is tire development. The setups we use today are the direct result of the changing tires. For us, changing tire brands means starting with the suspension geometry, and going through every aspect of the setup. We nearly do that annually when the tire companies start testing new stuff.

I think that the current VD has the same potential to evolve, if some one is willing and able to do the work. F1000 will see a lot of evolution in the beginning. But those designs that are really sound should last. As long as the rules are stable, the designs will evolve slowly.

The thing that is unique about F1000 is that the rules package is unlike any other formula and as a result what works may be very unique. No formula car class of this potential uses tube frames, and the aero restrictions are way less than any other similar formula. There is nothing like a lot of manufacturers to speed the development of a class.

[Matt Conrad]

Just how wide is "wide track" on the FC Van Diemen's?

When we updated my 1990 Van Diemen I believe we went from 59.5" to 62.75" with a 96.5" wheelbase. From memory, I believe that track was the 1996 Van Diemen spec as we merely adapted newer a-arms to the old car. Lengthening the car was out of the question as we didn't have time it was fairly involved.

I was under the impression that the newer cars went out to 64" or so and the wheelbase was around 104". I guess I didn't realize that there may have been wider iterations.

Matt Conrad
Phoenix Race Works, LLC

[Sean Maisey]

Matt,

The 2001 wide track update made the overall width of the cars very close to the 185cm limit. In fact there was a big uproar at one of the summer Nationals year before last, because the sidewall bulge on some of the cars (Goodyear tires I think??) exceeded 185cm total width.

If you take a VERY close look at the rules, the FC rules have since been altered so the section "H. Maximum Width - 185cm" really only refers to the rear of the car. Note the annotation at the top of the drawing "Dimensions shown at the rear refer to the rear. Dimensions shown at the front refer to the front". Unless I am missing something FC front track is essentially unlimited.

So in FC, you could have a 30' wide car at the front, pretty cool as long as you take the pole...

Sean

[Dave Belz]

Matt,
Last fall I was EAGER to get started on a conversion of my RF95 to F1000. At the time, I was hoping that my 'costs' could be held to < $15k (gross). Like Richard, I see only regional competition in my foreseeable future. If the costs are significantly greater than that, then I would be better off selling the car for whatever I could get for it and springing for the full purchase price of a new F1000. Why would I want to part out the car to sell off the LD and motor (likely at moderately depressed prices) and then invest $20,000 or more in converting to a still uncompetitive older car? At the point that I have that much cash involved, I'd prefer talking to you about the cost of a new F1K-07 in kit form than a conversion kit for my RF95.

If we are speculating at what the finished converted car might be worth, I'm not sure I care at this point. If you're thinking that a conversion kit would cost $30 - $35k then I'm being priced out of this class faster and faster every day.

Dave

[Matt Conrad]

My main concerns regarding the conversions are that we really need them in order to get some critical mass going for F1000 and hopefully have the numbers for a Runoffs invite in this decade. Even if every manufacturer who has put their toe in the F1000 water delivers 20 cars by mid-2008, we aren't going to make the top 24 for 2008...and that means no Runoffs in 2009...maybe we'll make 2010. I don't think there's been any public discussion on this and I'd like to get other thoughts on this.

Dave,

I think if you put "financial sense" to any of this...it doesn't work . But if you absolutely want to go FB racing, and you intend on Regional racing....I think a conversion makes perfect sense.

We've been working on a few conversion options and none of them even approach the numbers you mention. Even if you were to ship your car to us, we can do a complete conversion for around $20K. That includes:

• TIG-Welded 4130 Chromoly CAD-designed "back-half" chassis (based on F1K-07)
• George Dean prepared GSX-R1000 engine
• TRE/Quaife Differential w/custom carrier
• Custom fiberglass engine cover
• Revised Rear Suspension optimized for new powertrain configuration
• Custom rear diffuser based on new "back half"

Obviously a kit would be less...and the total cost of any conversion is actually lowered by the sale of the Pinto, LD200 and a few other parts.

Matt Conrad
Phoenix Race Works, LLC

[Mike Devins]

Matt,

I that track ready? If so it is a great deal!

Mike.

[Matt Conrad]

Mike,

Yes...turn-key. I just did a proposal to convert a 1994 VD FC and the total was $20,895.

This individual is only going to run Regional SCCA races and some track day events around here so we proposed a 03-04 motor and a baffled wet sump oil system. Going with the newer motor and the complete dry sump system will add around $3,200.

We will not be ready to start on conversion projects until after March 1st...we sort of have a big project to finish first....

Matt Conrad
Phoenix Race Works, LLC

[Dave Belz]

Dave,

I think if you put "financial sense" to any of this...it doesn't work . But if you absolutely want to go FB racing, and you intend on Regional racing....I think a conversion makes perfect sense.

Matt Conrad
Phoenix Race Works, LLC

Matt,
If I didn't apply "financial sense" to any of this, I'd have just sent you a check for my full racing fund and used the sales proceeds from my RF95 to run on next year. But that wouldn't keep me running for as long as I want to.

$20k for a turn-key conversion? You're not that far off! My very vague cost target did not include suspension revisions, engine cover, or diffuser. Kits for less? Keep my name near by!

Dave