FC listed on RacingJunk.com

[KWilliams]

Ambrose,
You have one of the Revaks cars from Texas. The Revaks campaigned the cars hard and after they were done, Steve Lathrop bought the cars back. The frame and body were sold to my brother and I bought it from him. I then placed my '95 suspension on the Revak frame and created your car.

I still own the #14 '95 Citation.

[LJennings]

Frank,
If you are answering to my quiz. No, Gabriel Reyes' Citaiton FF is not the original Steve Lathrop prototype FC.

Gabriels car is however one of the first 3 prototype '87 cars. This car was built new for my Dad, Charlie Williams and was campigned by my brother Brian. Gabriel is only the second owner. This was the first car I ever flipped. Note. I said first. For a period of years, I was Steve Lathrops crash tester.

The other two owners of the first three prototype Citation FF's in 1987 were Dave W. and John Gimble.

The question still is unsolved:

Wrong answer

[LJennings]

Here are the one's I can vouch for. The chassis numbers may not be correct on a couple, but this is the order in which they were finished if I remember correctly:

1 - The prototype chassis went to Dennis O'Neal, but was bolted together by MSM. It later went to Larue, etc.

2 - Chassis #2 went to Dave, and was barely finished in time for the '94 runoffs (it first turned its wheels the Friday before - Steve and I went 4 days straight with no sleep to get it done, and Dave spent a week with us working on it also. He was pretty fried by the time he went to Mid- Ohio!)

3 - Chassis #3 was Lou Cooper Jr's. It's first public outing was the PRI show in Columbus in '94. I busted my tail getting that thing done in time - it was painted the night before (finished at about 5 am!), before it was loaded up and taken to the show.

4 - Chassis #4 was for Rod Whelen. It also used all of his mechanicals off of his '84/87 car (the Staffs gearbox was the first one made - #SMT4-001-, as well as the bellousing being the first of it's model). Brewer later bought it, and I've heard that Scott Rubenzer has it now. I've got to hand it to Chuck - he spent an insane amount of time turning it into one of the best looking cars around.

5 - Chassis #5 went to Lou Cooper III, and was assembled by MSM. That car went thru a couple of other hands before it was bought by Larue and Brewer, and is now in S.C.

Subsequent chassis were all built by MSM, and I unfortunately cannot account for all of them. One went to Keith Williams, one to Jim Frank in MI (he still has it - I haven't been able to get him to sell it yet), one to a banker from Terra Haute (a Tony George relative), one to another guy in Ohio ( can't remember his name right now - he was the one who got hurt in a pit accident at the Indy 500), and 2 (3?) to Oklahoma. I'm not sure if there were any more than that, other than the versions that went to the Derek Daly school in Las Vegas.

The various updates over the years were:

A low friction bellcrank arrangement in early '95, with a front bellcrank pin modification sometime later that year.

Different rear geometry, arms, uprights, bellcranks and shock mounting in '97.

A couple of different bellcrank ratio upgrades both front and rear.

Minor diffuser changes for Dave.

A proper head surround for Larue in '99. I think the molds are still available on a shelf here somewhere.

We started adding the extra riviting strips for the bellypan in '98, I think.

Slight changes in the nosebox construction as Steve built crash replacements.

Wide track (all- new suspension components) in '03 ( I think that was the year, anyway!)

That's basicly it for mods in the last 12 years - nothing really all that major or earth-shattering.

It was the banker son. Don Smith, president of First National Bank of Terre Haute, son Jeff.

[Mike Pace]

Rob and others,

Wish I had the cash to buy this car, but one FC is more than enough to keep up with. I have had the pleasure to work and crew this car with the owner after Cooper Jr for a couple of years before it was sold.

In Late '99 or early 2000, the Cooper Jr. car was sold to a Waterford Hills local "Rod Thompson". Rod (and son Mike) had run the car pretty much strictly at Waterford for a couple of seasons.

I ran the car for the last time on Sept 29th 2001 at Waterford while owned by "Thompson".

Back then the car ran strong and was in pretty good shape.

The car was sold prior to the 2002 season to a young guy (18-20 year old) from the Chicago area. (must have been Eric ?)

Hope that helps...
Good Luck!

Mike

mike.pace@pacesracing.com

[KWilliams]

Mystery Solved:

The FIRST FC car built buy Steve Lathrop was in 1985 and was raced by Steve Ice (baby blue - see ICP's website). This car was built from a Z16 frame originally and then was converted to a 85 FC with rocker rear suspension and pushrod front suspension. The car then was converted to pushrod rear and thus the the first real car of the 1987 design era. The car was then campaigned by John Decker in the Pro Series.

Then, the car came KC and Brian Williams (brother) raced the car once /maybe twice. Then the car went to back to Steve Lathrop to be prepared for Dave W. Dave raced the car first at the June Sprints and went on to race the car at the Runoffs. The car was rebuilt with a new frame, body and other goodies. This car became the Dave W. car until he got his new car in late '94 (the '95 design). This car was sold to Ken Johnson who still owns and runs the car.

Now, how about the old frame, body and micro goodies left over from Dave's rebuild? I purchased these in '89 and built a '89 Citation FF (black/pink for those that remember). I raced it for two years as a FF and then converted it in '91 to a FC (the Valvoline car). I raced this car until '95 when I bought my '95 Citation FC from MSM.

I sold the '91 car to Bill Cary (now owner of 2 '95 MSM cars). He owned it for 1 year and sold it to Lenard Holsworth in KC. Lenard sold it to Sean Fischbach. Sean sold it to Brian Cohen. Brian Cohen sold it to Bert Swift and Bert Swift sold it to Fred Hayne. Fred is the current owner and is racing the car in Oklahoma.

I don't know of many Citations that have changed hands so many times, however I know all of the owners personally and most all have throughly enjoyed this car.

[R. Pare]

Greg Scharnberg out of DesMoines has the ex Steve Freid car. I owned the car for one summer, wish I had it back. I bought it from from someone out of Kentucky. Can't remember his name but they ran whatever pro series there was at the time with it.

That was Schings. They REALLY made a mess of that car!

[bryancohnracing]

That's a pretty LIBERAL use of the phrase "thoughly enjoyed this car".

Remember the phone call I made to you from TWS ab out how heavy the steering was? Turned out I had far to much front wing dialed in...

Had a friend/renter car the hell out of the thing at GIR. No suspension damage but it broke the gearbox off the oil tank.....Hello Taylor, one new Staffs gearbox please....

Then there was the regional at HPT that I did on a whim using 12 session old tires. Don't ask why, but the car was never better. Pole, fast lap, dominating win over a full field of Midiv FC racers. Go figure.

Recall the test at GIR when, after struggling with set up and not being able to get up to speed I paid your brother (Brian) and Dale to come test and sort the car? Brian spent the whole day driving, used three sets of new Hoosiers and at the end proclaimed: "Well, it's really good on old tires. I"d keep running those!". Turned out I never came to grips with understanding the third spring.

The next day my first (and only full time employee) left the gas cap off and burned me and the car to a crispy crunch. I hear I taste good with ketchup. BTW, the guy never bothered to come back to work so I could fire him.

Made my day when you worked the deal with Bert to exchange the Reynard for the Citation.

Oh, what fond memories!

bryan

[SStadel]

Keith, I've got some nice pictures of the Valvoline car from the '91 Runoffs behind my Reynard. Looks like you've got a bent front wing.

[KWilliams]

Bryan,
I think the key phrase in my statement was "and most all". I do remember all your situations and I sure felt bad about that. I did reset-up the car for Bert on Goodyears and the car came back to life again. I still can't explain the new/used tire deal. On Goodyears that car loved the first two sessions.

As for the gearbox. I never had a gearbox break with the following crashes in that car.

1) Old St.Louis - head on in to the guardrail at around 100mph then spin-hit, spin-hit, spin-hit, etc.
2) Road America - Canada -right rear collasped
3) Topeka - 2 end for end flips with 6 barrel roles (bad day - gearbox/driver was the only thing OK)
4) Topeka - collapsed the entire right side

I am sure there were more, however these all included rear end damage. I guess you just hit it in the right spot or maybe I weakened it. Who knows?

Again, I felt real bad that it didn't work out. It was like having your buudy marry your sister and then they get a divorce. I'm glad we still get along and hey, I haven't seen my sister in a while. Oh, Well!!

[KWilliams]

Steve,
Yep, As I recall you had a pretty quick Reynard. That was a fun race except I remember spinning like twice.

Nice of you to remember.

Keith

[RobLav]

Returned home with car Christmas Day. Thanks to everyone for all the info.

[Wren]

congrats on getting the car. How about some more pictures of it for those of use who are interested in citations.

Also, please keep us updated on your progress with the car.

Did we ever determine if this was a 94 with the suspension upgrade?

[R. Pare]

Yes - this is Lou Cooper Jr's car with the original FA single-sideplate gearbox.

[RobLav]

This is indeed chassis number 3, Lou Cooper Jr's car. The car came with a TON of records - even the original itemized price list. Mag Staffs, mag bell, radial mounted ICP calipers, quite a few suspension spares, a rear upright with hub that looks never used, never opened packages with hydraulics, 3 sets of wheels (2 Technos and one ??? 3-piece type), extra upper rear wings, rear cockpit adjustable ARB, stack dash, hi-tech exhaust, Dixon engine with all the dyno sheets, 1 smashed up front wing and 1 repairable front wing, 2 lower rear wings that need re-skinned but mounted one on top of the other (???).

The bad is that not a single piece of bodywork is uncracked or smashed. I can repair it all though. A hole in the left front upper rear leg chassis mount, bent steering rack (repairable), missing steering wheel. Floor pan obviously needs re-done. Front crush box obviously "crushed" as well. There is a spare crush box that needs some repair. No extra gearsets.

I don't really see an obvious need to update the rear suspension, but I do believe the front should be. The bellcrank and pushrod angle looks "funny", and the front ARB gets in the way while entering and exiting the car.

First time I've seen a Citation up close and personal, and it has been a pleasure analyzing the design.

Now, to decide what to do with it....

It all depends on how quickly Steve and Richard can produce another chassis, the F1000 front suspension, and the entire F1000 rear end. I do not want to split this car up to convert to F1000. It'd be nice to have an updated front end on the chassis and a complete, bolt-in, rear F1000 assembly. It'd be nice to run the car as FC one weekend, then bolt in the F1000 rear assembly to run that class the following weekend.

But my ultimate goal is to have a new Citation optimized for F1000 and to keep Lou Cooper Jr's old car intact as an updated FC or CFC. That way, we can play with F1000 aero and keep this decent FC together.

For those people that asked me about selling pieces from the car, including wheels, I just don't know yet... depends on what Steve recommends. So, the short term plan is to repair / update Dave W's sister car here and run as FC /CFC for next season.

PS... anybody want my RF99?

PPS... Merry Christmas to all.

[R. Pare]

Rob:

When you get the chance, send me some photos.

[captaineddie1975]

Rob
You may remember me from the NARRC dinner. What are you asking for the 99VD? I have just sold my car and the buyer is picking it up this week so right now I am carless. email me
at captaineddie1975@yahoo.com Since we are so close I cold come visit and seethe VD and the Citation.
Ed Capullo

[RobLav]

Citation pictures sent. RF99 pictures and info sent too.

[Solacepower]

Wow, i must first apologize to all the people who i didnt get a chance to reply to, but so many emails came so fast, Robert was the most persistant, and first to contact me, with Keith Williams not 2 minutes behind.

I purchased the car from Rod Thompson from MI in the spring of 2002, raced it in the MWC FC class for the next year and a half. I had my accident at RA in July of 2003, and at the time i could not financially recover from it to fix it. So it sat for the next 3 years before i broke down and put it up for sale. In Response to Brad about crashing at RA, the bark was much worse than the bite, thank god for thick tire walls. This was such a good car, im very sorry to see it go, but happy to see Robert have the knowledge to make it fast. This car was really a steal, i should have asked more for it after hearing what some of you have said.

And yes, the reason for the crash was the right rear brake disc disintegrated, it was not a fun experience. Im glad to have found this site and read all the gossip about myself and my car. I do want to continue racing, and am looking for a 2000 or newer VD for around $20,000, any suggestions?

[RobLav]

Welcome to the board Eric. My RF99 sits downstairs for $20K!

[Solacepower]

As tempting as that sounds, and it really does, i just promised myself i would find a 2000 or newer, but ya never know, your car does look amazing! And am i to assume correctly that from what i read you have a myspace page?? from what i have read it seems people are thinking its for "kids", but it has amazing network capabilities, and i have been a Sr. member on that site since its inception 4 years ago. I think it was funny as hell reading that Dano looked me up. this forum is great, so glad i found it.

[dc]

Honestly, any '98 or up, and you're really in the same exact car. The only differences are body/wing, and a few updates here and there, but nothing that can't be acquired and retrofitted.

There are some great deals to be had on '98/'99 cars out there...

[Dano]

I think it was funny as hell reading that Dano looked me up. this forum is great, so glad i found it.

Ah, this just proves I have way too much time on my hands.
Again, welcome and you could not be more correct about this forum.

Dan