FSCCA VS Standard FM

[R Nicholas]

Can anybody give me a valid reason as to why the FSCCA car is so much slower then the standard FM ???

Looking at a track like Road Atlanta the FMs have been deep into the 1.25s, correct me if I'm wrong but I do not think the FSCCA cars have been close to that, same thing at about all the tracks I've been at.

I have allot of laps in a FM but have never driven the FSCCA car.
The FSCCA car weighs less, same HP, and much newer design. I think its a pretty safe to say this is a major reason the car is not more popular.

Rob Nicholas

[KAMcDonald]

sort of depends on what FM you are talking about.

just looked at the star mazda web site...

2004 pro fm 1090 lbs, 240 hp renesis rotary
2004 std fm 1140 lbs, 190 hp, 13b rotary

i am sure other years have different numbers

the fscca is 1260 lbs, 170 hp, 2.3l inline 4

at the ARRC last weekend, the winner was brandon aleckson with a fast lap/class record of 1:28.410

not sure where in Va you are, but if you ever make it out to SP sometime during a practice day when i have mine out there, and you have a valid comp license, i could let you take it out for a couple laps...

keith

[R Nicholas]

A standard FM [SCCA Club] is 1350 w/ aprox 180hp maybe.

No way is a FM 1140 w/ driver.

Rob,

[Tifosi]

The atl-scca.org web site lists the Road Atlanta track record for FM as of 7/06 as follows:

[SIZE=2]FM [/SIZE]
[SIZE=2]Douglas Peterson [/SIZE]
[SIZE=2]FM Mazda [/SIZE]
[SIZE=2]1:28.215 [/SIZE]
[SIZE=2]3/03 National [/SIZE]

[KAMcDonald]

i stand corrected.... for the pro it just says weight under dimensions, for the std it shows dry weight. but the other comment about what year/type FM is still valid since it has been out there for awhile and revised over the years. there is only 1 version of FSCCA, well, it can be bodied as an SR, but engine drivetrain is all the same

http://www.starmazda.com/cars.htm

[R Nicholas]

The atl-scca.org web site lists the Road Atlanta track record for FM as of 7/06 as follows:

[SIZE=2]FM [/SIZE]
[SIZE=2]Douglas Peterson [/SIZE]
[SIZE=2]FM Mazda [/SIZE]
[SIZE=2]1:28.215 [/SIZE]

[SIZE=2]3/03 National [/SIZE]

Below is the top 5 at Road Atlanta, Imsa event, No super trap.

Schiavo 1.25.2
Bach 1.25.5
Potekhan 1.25.7
McDowell 1.25.8
Bucknum 1.25.9

Doug's time above was set when the cars were required to run the super trap, thats no longer the case.

[Dan Aleckson]

wait until the new penske shocks are put on these cars then compare ... we are very competetive with the lap records with the fms in cali. Dan

[Keith Carter]

Below is the top 5 at Road Atlanta, Imsa event, No super trap.

Schiavo 1.25.2
Bach 1.25.5
Potekhan 1.25.7
McDowell 1.25.8
Bucknum 1.25.9

Doug's time above was set when the cars were required to run the super trap, thats no longer the case.

I'm just a spectator for this post, but aren't those names of Pro Mazda drivers?

[Agitator]

I'm with Keith - were those results from this year? If so, then they are the current Pro Mazda. I may be wrong, but I don't think there's been a race associated with any pro series in a couple of years with the "club' Mazda.

[Tifosi]

Below is the top 5 at Road Atlanta, Imsa event, No super trap.

Schiavo 1.25.2
Bach 1.25.5
Potekhan 1.25.7
McDowell 1.25.8
Bucknum 1.25.9

Doug's time above was set when the cars were required to run the super trap, thats no longer the case.

Those times are from the 2003 Pro Race right Rob?

[R Nicholas]

Yes Keith that is correct, but even the club guys run 26s at road atlanta.

Or look at the times from this years June Sprints. FM 2.16.4 VS. FSCCA 2.20

Rob,

[R Nicholas]

I'm with Keith - were those results from this year? If so, then they are the current Pro Mazda. I may be wrong, but I don't think there's been a race associated with any pro series in a couple of years with the "club' Mazda.

All the times that I have quoted are form the standard FM before the pro car ever hit the track.

Yes Dave, 2003 Pro Race. last year b-4 the new car.

[Keith Carter]

Yes Keith that is correct, but even the club guys run 26s at road atlanta.

Or look at the times from this years June Sprints. FM 2.16.4 VS. FSCCA 2.20

Rob,

I see what you're getting at now... I would attribute the time difference by the FSCCA cars currently having a poor shock package and being locked into the gear ratios they have to use. The shocks will change soon I believe, but part of that 'spec' racer appeal is not having to tinker with too much where you can with a club FM.

[R Nicholas]

I see what you're getting at now... I would attribute the time difference by the FSCCA cars currently having a poor shock package and being locked into the gear ratios they have to use. The shocks will change soon I believe, but part of that 'spec' racer appeal is not having to tinker with too much where you can with a club FM.

Ok so the FSCCA car has a poor shock package and a fixed gear stack. FM spec shock [koni] cant be that much better [if not worse] and the FM also has to run fixed gear stack.
On top of that add in what? lbs more weight, rocker arm suspension, outboard rear shocks and no aero package. Take a close look at the FM, its a big Club Ford.

Rob,

[Tifosi]

I guess the difference might be a combination of talent, gearing, weather, shock settings and who knows what else. I do know that my bro qualified in his FM at the Sprints with a 2:21.668 and with a 2:20.138 in his FSCCA at the August Regional. Pretty close to the same considering it was 2 months between races. He won at the August National at Grattan in 2005 with a race lap of 1:19.170 in the FM. Memorial Day weekend this year he won the Sunday FSCCA race with a 1:19.601. Same driver, same tracks, different cars, different days.

[Tifosi]

One more thing. If the club guys run 26's at Road Atlanta why is the track record still

[SIZE=2]FM
Douglas Peterson [/SIZE]
[SIZE=2]FM Mazda [/SIZE]
[SIZE=2]1:28.215 [/SIZE]
[SIZE=2]3/03 National [/SIZE]

[Keith Carter]

I was unaware that FM's have fixed gears. I guess I never took the time to care enough to look.

[J Mabee]

FM's have a set group of gearing they can choose from. Copied from the 2007 GCR:

[SIZE=1]All cars shall be equipped with some combination of the following gears: [/SIZE]
[SIZE=1]Mark5, or Mark8 Series Gears 15:36 – 15:30 – 15:25 – 17:34 – 19:32 – 18:25 – 21:29 – 17:23 – 22:30 – 24:27 – 19:23 – 23:28 – 25:26 – 26:25 – or 26:26 Webster; 24:24 Hewland[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]Minimum weight with driver = 1350 lbs w/ 6 port 13B, 1400 lbs w/ 4 port Renesis.[/SIZE]

[R Nicholas]

Dave,
Once again Doug's time at road a is W/ super trapp. You can knock off 1.5 sec easy by not running the trapp. Also remember Fm is required to race on tires that they qualify on, qualify times can be 1-2 sec quicker.

J Mabee,
All the gears you have listed are only 2-stacks, [long and short] most guys just change the top gear. Can the Fscca cars change any gears ??? is it a 5 or 6 speed box ???

Bottom line is regardless of how much or how little faster the FM is. It should be the other way around. Has the thought ever crossed your guy's mind why its not?

Rob,

[smcqueen]

Are the FM engines dynoed to certain specs? I suspect most of the cars make a solid 190hp and the Renisis now allowed at around 240hp is going to certainly outrun a FSCCA down the straights, especially on the larger tracks. I don't see how they allow the Renesis engine with just a 50 lb wt. penalty. That pretty much obsoletes the 6-port and will run like heck down the straights. I just bought a new FSCCA and I am happy with what I got. I could not see investing the same amount of money in such a primitive chassis as the FM.


scott

[SStadel]

Bottom line is regardless of how much or how little faster the FM is. It should be the other way around. Has the thought ever crossed your guy's mind why its not?

Rob,[/quote]

Who cares? We're not racing Formula Mazda's. We're racing each other (FSCCA). Maybe the hp numbers aren't correct for either. Mazda may be higher, FSCCA may be lower. Maybe our wings don't work as well or have too much drag compared to the Mazda. I know our shocks are not good and the new ones are much better. One test was 2.5 seconds a lap faster. There has certainly been more years to develop the Mazda, as far as handling packages, etc. Again, I really don't think it matters.

[J Mabee]

Hey Rob,

No we don't have different gearing, part of the cost containment. 5 speed sequential. We are also required to qualify and race on the same tires. I guess I really don't care about who's faster in what car unless its another FSCCA. What does it really matter if a FM is faster or not - its in a different class. I'm going to be starting my 4th season using the same motor, my only wear items have been a dog ring every once and a while and changed brake pads once. Its exactly what I wanted in a race car. Do you have a car, or are you looking to get into a formula car? Keith made you one hell of an offer!!!

[Bob Wright]

Hey Rob,

Do you have a car, or are you looking to get into a formula car? Keith made you one hell of an offer!!!

one might check the '05 FM runoffs results for Rob's name - and the F2000 Series results in '06

[KAMcDonald]

a hell of an offer?

heck, i just want another driver in the car to see if he can go faster proving to me that my car is fine, i am slow, or he comes back in and times are high like mine means i send it back to scca enterprises for a freshening and back all that power i INSIST i am missing.... being at the back of the pack suks.....

more brake, less gas!!!

keith

p.s. gosh, cannot even get it right on paper let alone on the track....


LESS Brake, LESS brake.....

[R Nicholas]

Who cares? We're not racing Formula Mazda's. We're racing each other (FSCCA). Maybe the hp numbers aren't correct for either. Mazda may be higher, FSCCA may be lower. Maybe our wings don't work as well or have too much drag compared to the Mazda. I know our shocks are not good and the new ones are much better. One test was 2.5 seconds a lap faster. There has certainly been more years to develop the Mazda, as far as handling packages, etc. Again, I really don't think it matters.[/quote] Steve

Well Steve I think more people care then you might think. You yourself championed the idea about combining FSCCA & FM, BTW great idea, nice job. I'm really not sure why it did not go further up the scca ladder.

Why do we need 2 open wheel "spec classes" that are basically the same thing?

Lets say the FSCCA car turned lap times close to FC times but w/the lower cost that the FSCCA car offerers. Do you think you would have more people running the class right now?

Please do not take this the wrong way, I'm a big fan of spec racing and your class. My problem would spending that kind of $ on a nice new modern Fscca car just to get waxed buy a 20+ year old design FM spec class w/ the same HP............ But like you said you do not have to race them, at least not for now.

Rob,

[RStephens]

A little information on the formula mazda..... I weigh about 185 and I don't have a problem making weight in the car unless I have less than 1 gallon of fuel in the car. Minimum weight is 1350 at the end of the race. On a dynojet dyno, I have seen three fm's making between 158 and 161 rwhp. This is without supertrap plates. I have heard of two fm's on mustang dyno's, one made 150 rwhp and one made 152 rwhp.

Just a little info for you guys.

Richard Stephens
FM #56

[glenn cooper]

The allowed Renesis conversion to the standard FM is not the Pro FM engine (now THAT would be interesting). It's a 4 port making about the same HP (180) as the old 13B. Most standard FM's chassis dynoed at around 165.
The times at Rd Atl mentioned were top running FM's, in the same trim they are now allowed to run (sans Supertrapp plates). Many "regular" folks have run in the 1:26 range there. I think the Peterson record may be in error, I believe it's actually closer to a high 1:26.
Rob, remember when the FSCCA car came out and they allowed FM's to run in the same series (SCCA Pro, 2003?) Jeremy Treadway was on pole at VIR, w/ a pack of FM's in pursuit. IIRC, he was allowed to Q w/o a muffler, and we (assembled FM'ers) raised hell. It was all for naught as his time was allowed on some type non-availability issue of a new muff.
The point to the above is that I believe the talent pool of Star Mazda Pro Series, circa 2003 was very deep, and the same can not be said of FSCCA now.
FM car weight is right about 1150. I had to add about 40 lbs to my car (I'm 155 lbs) to barely break the 1350 at the end of the race.
Also some of the gear ratios mentioned in an earlier post are only avail in the Mk 5, not Mk 9, the lowest ratio 15:36 was only ever used at RFK Stadium Pro Race (if you even thought to have one on you that is!), otherwise useless.
A Pro FM (FA) does Rd Atl around 1:19 or so.

I say equalize 'em and let the fun begin FM(azda) indeed!
GC

[Stan Clayton]

I have a couple of thoughts for consideration...

There are three times as many FMs as FSCCA cars, and FM has been raced for years at the National and Pro levels. The competition is therefore likely to be incrementally more intense in FM than in FSCCA at this point. That will have some effect on lap times. (We see this in Pro Mazda vs the same car in Club racing, where they are many seconds a lap slower in the hands of the best Club racers than pro series times on the same tracks.) FSCCA will get quicker when it goes National.

Tires. The FSCCA uses the Hoosier R45, while the FM runs on GY R430s. Both medium tires, but not the same at all. Tires alone make a HUGE difference in lap times.

Stan

Edit: Coop, I missed reading your post before replying (forgot to read the second page), so sorry about the redundancy thing...

[ChrisV]

I am a great fan of spec racing and thus totally committed to our local formulaGTI (2L Golf engines).
And yes shocks should be standard right through in a spec class but some adjustment (like you are going to do now) could be allowed so drivers could adapt the car also to their different styles (drivers are not spec). Then different spring rates could be allowed (spec like 3 for rear and 3 for front) and then most importantly I think you guys must allow ratio change on the boxes. Define a minimum no of ratios (specify exactly which ones) and that would sure make the cars 2 secs faster on some tracks.
Must say I really enjoy trying to determine what ratios to use: do I plan to be quick on exit or down the straight, etc. real fun and we have only 4 speed LD200 boxes.
But above all retain your spec formula it is a treasure to have and yes do not worry about other formulas being quicker. This is circuit racing and not drag racing and nothing beats the thrill of having 5 cars within 10 meters on the same piece of track and that is only possible with very tight spec racing cars.

[Robert Mumm]

One thing you guys haven't discussed is the tires. The FSCCA cars are not running on a radial tire as the car was designed for but on a bias ply tire. SCCA picked the Hoosier tires because of the deal rather than the best tire for the car. A set of radials with similiar or greater life potential as we run in the IMSA Lites series would drop the lap times for the FSCCA car by several seconds a lap at most tracks.

[Justin_H]

Rob,

Some comparative info for you, since we ran a lot of the same events in 2005 when you were kicking butt in FM and I was in FSCCA. Here are some lap times from 2005 nationals, mostly from the same group:
Summit Point: Chris Schanzle 1:14.3, Rob Nicholas 1:14.0 - new track record, me 1:15.2
Nelson Ledges: Rob Nicholas 1:05.2, me 1:06.1
BeaveRun: Chris Schanzle 58.2, me 58.3
Watkins Glen: Rob Nicholas 1:56.3, me 1:58.2
VIR: Chris Schanzle 1:57.4, me 1:58.4
Mid Ohio August: Jason Vinkemulder 1:31.0, me 1:30.0 - Rob & Chris didn't run
Runoffs: Chris Schanzle 1:26.4, me 1:27.8 * Did not run in same group.
Runoffs Qualifying: David Donovan 1:27.1, me 1:27.6 - would have been 7th in FM - qualified right with FM second day, before FM first and third day.

This year I didn't run the car until September, and I think I was a bit slower overall. Really slow at Summit where the first race was my first dry session in the car. About the same at Mid Ohio but it was repaved. A little slower at Watkins Glen.

My experience has been that the Mazdas have less torque but more HP. On a long straight I won't win the drag race unless I have a lot more speed coming onto it. Before we had to run mufflers we were faster, but I was 107 dB at VIR. That's the limit in Pro Racing, which is what we were doing in 2003. I haven't seen dyno numbers at the rear wheels, but 60-100 acceleration numbers coming out of Oak Tree at VIR I've slowed down about 15-20% since the addition of the muffler, despite the lighter flywheel and supposed power increase from the new injectors.

I don't know how the tires compare, but I have been told the C3000 construction Hoosiers have been tested and were over a second a lap faster. I don't know how the wind drag compares between the cars, but I *think* both are bricks.

The shocks I don't know about since I've never driven a good formula car with good shocks. I can tell you the way I have my car setup the shocks don't matter much because the suspension doesn't move much. Not good on bumpy tracks, but it works for me most places.

For the speed differences, from what I've seen there are very few FM drivers in the country who can beat me at the same track on the same day. So it might come down to the ones who do beat me are better drivers and/or have their cars setup better. If you come out and run Keith's car let me know and I'll try to get out there and adjust it to your liking. Do you still have your FM car?

Justin

[R Nicholas]

Thanks Justin, that is good information.

I have no plans to take Keith up on is offer, but I would love to drive the car. [thanks for the offer keith] I'm running in FC now and plan on running the Hankook east cost pro races for 07'.

Back to the point,
I really think FSCCA, FM, and Scca guy's and Mazda for that matter, need to get together and combine as one national class. The way scca adds national classes now, well lets just say you do not want to be in the bottom 20. Fm is ok for now but the class is not healthy and needs a spark. FSCCA needs cars, its a win win.

I'm sure people will come up with reason's why it will never work, but that data you just put out shows it will and we have not even tried yet.

It's a hell of allot more fun racing with 25 then 5, [that is if your looking for a race]


Rob,

[chuckj]

With all due respect to all on this thread. Our experience, has shown that with a proper setup and comparable drivers the FSCCA is every bit as fast as the FM and is somewhat more forgiving. Key words "proper setup and comparable drivers". With that said with a better tire and the Penske's that are on the way.....mmmmmm!

Brandon (the young one that just won the FSCCA National Championship) has been running the FSCCA for three years now and and has spun out twice, once his first ever time out and the second in the first race this year which was his first rain race on the first lap, ended up at the back of the pack then came back to finish 4th overall in the run group with FA, FM, FC, FS, DSR and CSR cars in the run group. His only contact damage was this year at the start of a race at Laguna Seca when a herd of Pro Mazda's there to get track time for an upcoming pro race decided to kiss each other in turn 2 at the start leaving almost no room to get through. Again, the setup has to match the drivers style and ability. As to the carnage during the ARRC, most likely a lot can be tied to the extra adreneline in the veins competing in the largest FSCCA get together ever with not a lot of past experience as the FM and FC guys have had (meant to mean in total as some drivers have been around for a while) as mentioned in prior posts. My two cents.

Once again, we really enjoyed the few days at RA and meeting the guys from this forum.

Chuck

[Purple Frog]

Chuck,

Good meeting you at RA, even if it was brief. Super job you folks did. It's nice to see folks win championships without the use of semi-trailers and large crews. Sort of like club racing.

Did Atlanta Region give you the longest commute award?

[chuckj]

Same here Frog. Wish we had more time to talk. I wanted to meet Coop also as I followed him for a long time on the FM forums when I was thinking about buying one of those. Unfortunately that didn't happen as when I had time he was busy, etc. Oh well, there's always next year. We should have a few new drivers in FSC out here this season and we are starting to make some very preliminary plans to come back with a few cars for ARRC.

[Craig Taylor]

Just to set the record straight, all FM engines are built, dynoed and sealed by Daryl Drummond. The engines are right at 180 HP. The Renesis engine is specified with a restrictor plate to keep the hp below 180 hp. The approval of the Renesis was predicated on the engine being introduced as an underdog, and slowly brought up to par with the standard FM engine by "competition adjustments." The Renesis will definately not be allowed to be better than par with the standard engine. At the present time the Renesis powered FM carries a 50 lb weight penalty as well. These restrictions are in place so that older engines will not be obsoleted.

Craig