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  1. #121
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    Default The true source of the problem and possible solution

    Looking at the number of entries, it’s obvious that the issue is not about over-subscribing, or number of entires.

    It is also clear that SM and SSM have separate groups, and though while technically possible, very, very, very few drivers “double-dip”. In fact, I can't see why they have any interest in the issue at all.


    I believe the problem has nothing to do with track time, but stems from the fact that the big bore and small bore groups are unhappy, in that they have 35-40 car groups and large speed differentials between the fast cars in the fast classes and the slow cars in the slower classes, making for a crowded track and unpleasant qualifying sessions and races.


    The problem is NOT car counts in other groups. Bringing up the issue of car counts is simply an attempt at justifying the desire for an extra group so that they can reduce crowding in their own groups. Clearly, if there were only 12 cars in IT/GT/Prod groups, no one would care how many cars are in other groups would they? The crowded IT/GT/Prod point fingers and lash out at the most visible target (the open wheel groups) insisting that they have greater numbers so their interests should have precedence, when it is their very numbers that are the true source of the problem.


    In other words, the problem is that there are too many cars in the sedan classes, which detracts from the quality of racing. The track is too crowded, the faster cars are tripping over the slower cars. I don’t have a whole lot of sympathy, but I think we must recognize it as a problem that must be dealt with.

    Although I consider this as a problem originating from within the IT/GT/Prod groups, I also see it as one that ALL racers are contributing to in their own, small ways. For instance, if the slow sedan cars weren’t tripping of the fast GT cars, this wouldn’t be much of an issue. Or suppose that there was no Spec Miata group or Vees or winged cars, that would free up space for the sedan cars. We all contribute, simply by being there.


    In working towards a solution I believe that it is important that we do so in a manner that doesn’t result in further divisiveness or alienation. I see a problem here greater than crowded run groups, or groups with low car counts, I hope I can make the case that this is a CLUB problem, and should be solved AS A CLUB. In other words, EVERYONE bears some responsibility, EVERYONE must sacrifice for the betterment of the Club, and EVERYONE should benefit from the solution.

    As a possible means of solving this problem as a club, I would like to suggest the following: Adding a group for the troubled sedan cars, and rotating the resulting 10 groups over 5 weekends at SP.

    I understand that this comes up all the time and gets discounted immediately, but in light of current events I think it merits some serious re-consideration.

    To sum it up I count 5 race weekends at SP plus the Labor Day double. If a group is added for the sedan guys, that would make 10 groups to be spread over 5 race weekends, such that 8 groups race and 2 different groups would sit out each weekend. In other words, Groups 1 and 5 sit out the first event, 2 and 6 sit out the 2nd event etc. Everyone gets invited to Labor Day, that weekend is a crazy zoo anyway. The end result is that as a driver you would race 5 instead of 6 weekends at SP. That doesn’t seem like a huge sacrifice to me.

    There are many benefits with this approach. EVERY racer gives up a little for the good of the Club, and EVERYONE contributes to the solution. NO ONE gets singled out or excluded, there are no additional weekends for which workers would be required. It’s not a HUGE disturbance to the current structure. The paddock situation would be improved. There would be 1 less group making for a shorter day for the workers. The aggrieved sedan cars would have their extra group, improving their racing experience. Everyone gets the opportunity to race, several times throughout the season. The groups can be structured so that any safety issues can be properly addressed. This frees up a lot of room during a race weekend. Everyone would have room in their groups to expand a little. Most importantly if the situation warrants it sometime in the future, it can be modified or reversed later.

    I know a lot of people who, due to financial constraints or work schedules, don’t run all the races anyway. In this case, as one of those people think of it as taking one of your un-used race weekends and donating to the other race groups so they can have better races. A worthy cause, to my mind.

    I feel that it’s important that we would be treating this as a CLUB problem and solving it AS A CLUB and not by excluding a few for the benefit of a few others, and dividing everyone into tin-tops and open wheelers and Miatas or what have you, not by pointing fingers, or declaring “This is what I want, and this is why I deserve it”, not by taking something away from one group and awarding it to another. This way, everyone contributes, everyone benefits, no one would feel like they were getting thrown under the bus or getting relegated to second-class.

    This is the most equitable and least radical or disruptive solution I can come up with. I’m sure everyone will have a problem with it, as everyone wants what they want, but no one is willing to give up anything in order compromise. But we all must ask ourselves: What is it that we want, and what are we willing to give up in order to get it? That is the nature of compromise. As ugly as things are getting now, I hope it’s given some re-consideration.

    Respectfully,

    Art Chu

  2. #122
    Senior Member HazelNut's Avatar
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    Default

    I got a response from Gayle Lorenz, I figured i'd share it with the group:



    Thank you for your comments. The Board of Directors will be discussing this issue at its next meeting.

    In the meantime, it would be helpful for the members of the large formula group work on ways to help get their participation numbers up.

    Gayle

    Gayle S. Lorenz
    Regional Executive
    WDCR/SCCA
    Awww, come on guys, it's so simple. Maybe you need a refresher course. Hey! It's all ball bearings nowadays.

  3. #123
    Classifieds Super License Charles Warner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HazelNut View Post
    In the meantime, it would be helpful for the members of the large formula group work on ways to help get their participation numbers up.

    Gayle

    Gayle S. Lorenz
    Regional Executive
    WDCR/SCCA
    Kind of hard to get participation numbers up when they aren't allowed to participate, no?
    Charlie Warner
    fatto gatto racing

    'Cause there's bugger-all down here on earth!

  4. #124
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    i went ahead and registered/posted over on the spec miata board thread to ask for some insight on why the SM/SSM reps voted us off the island when they as a class/group get 0% change from the action. they already have their own group for each class so the realignment of the class/group structure in no way affects their time on track, quality of the sessions, etc.

    jump on over to look for answers in full using the link posted earlier, but in digest form the answer was they supported the idea of "quality time" for ALL the drivers on track per session as defined by fewer cars and less speed differentials (safety concern similar to why we say FA and FV in same group is not a good idea) between the classes in the new proposed groupings vs what we have now.

    decision by the CC to exclude us was not directed at us because of car counts, although low counts for combined group and possible re-shuffling of classes to other groups did affect final recommendation, i.e. csr/dsr/s2 can play nice with SRF (although some comments on SRF site was their races would be shorter due to getting lapped by the csr/dsr/s2) and cf/ff being slower would not be as much of a safety concern with the FV.

    looks like when it comes down to needing a group to ease the "overcrowding" by the other closed wheel cars (not max car count as described by GCR, but the good old feeling people have by having an open road in front of them to mash on the gas) the FV/F5 rep was better at defending his turf and avg 13 cars per race than we were with our 20 car avg.

    if the BOD accepts the proposal, and it comes down to not being able to race, how many of us would refuse to go ahead and group with the FV/F5s?

  5. #125
    Contributing Member John Nesbitt's Avatar
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    Three thoughts, and then I'll get back to my day job:

    1. How did we get here?

    It's the numbers. There is no vast conspiracy to run open wheel out of WDCR. Open wheel is accomplishing that all on its own.

    Open wheel numbers have been steadily declining, at the same time as SM/IT numbers have been shooting up. There are only so many hours in the weekend, which produces a maximum number of run groups, into which you can stuff only so many cars.

    This issue has been on the table for the past several years. In 2006, FC and FV numbers took a big dip, and we evidently reached a tipping point.

    The IT and SM guys had done their homework before last week's competition meeting. The open wheel drivers reps did a poor job of persuading the fence-sitters on the committee. There was a class line vote, and the motion passed 12-to-10.

    Folks may be surprised, but they should not be shocked.


    2. Next steps

    The WDCR Board meets on Saturday to review the Comp Ctte's decision. They have invited three of the parties to present arguments. The Board will very likely decide that the committee overstepped, and direct the committee to reconsider.

    In the meantime, no amount of huffing and puffing, or bomb-throwing, or backdoor 'negotiations' with the SM rep will accomplish anything. As things stand, the SM and IT folks have no incentive to work out an equitable arrangement; they have what they want.

    As stated by many, the best thing to do is write a (polite, reasoned) message to the Board, or least the RE. If you can recruit anybody in the worker community to write, so much the better.


    3. Going Forward

    Assuming this goes back to the committee, all options will be on the table: a single race group for FV-to-FA, split double weekends, 10 race groups with a rotating drop, and any other credible option. Something will get hammered out, and all classes will have a place to run.

    Next year, the various open wheel classes would very well to get as many entries as they can, as Gayle suggested. It's a numbers game. Race groups evolve according to the number of cars that actually turn out. Anybody who sits out next year should not come crying when the knives come out again.
    John Nesbitt
    ex-Swift DB-1

  6. #126
    Member enjoythemusic's Avatar
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    Hi,

    Wow, my second posting and am getting right into it, though hopefully not (when in a spin) 'both feet in.' Fast minimal background, have been tracking a saloon car the past few years, love the sport of it with safety being #1. Am not claiming nor never will claim to be Mr. Hottest Shoes or the next Senna/Schumacher. Think 2,900 lbs car with 180HP/165TQ and Mich Pilot Cup tires doing 1:06.5 at LRP, 2:26 at WGI, and am really trying but NHIS is a slow 1:26

    As a guy who on SUNDAY is about to procure a FC car with lots of spare bits, it makes me wonder if i made the right decision. The answer is YES because i want to continue honing my skills both as a driver and engineer. An FC made the most sense for safety, performance, cost containment (my saloon car is an old exotic, please don't ask the costs of upkeep), and ease of turning wrenches as am a hands on guy. The current saloon car is totally uncompetitve in ANY race league, that's reality. FC will be different.


    Quote Originally Posted by T.Bardwell View Post
    I did NOT race there this year because I feel I am unwelcome by the DC Region, and Summit Point sucks on April 1st. Those stingey regional SOBS get 7 weekends at Summit Point over the nicest months of the year... and the National guys have to race in the snow? And you wonder why nobody shows up.
    You make some good points. In business i vote with my dollars and if one feels unwelcome it is time to leave. Pure and simple. Hopefully there will be a place FCs will be welcome and if it comes to it, someone could entertain the idea of starting a new league. The company Lamborghini was started because Enzo was being, well... Enzo.


    Quote Originally Posted by Anne View Post
    First of all, eliminating these classes will be guaranteed to drive away a number of current and long-time club MEMBERS...
    If they valued said classes they would support them. It can be hard to separate emotion from the business aspect, though in business there are times to take a loss in one area for the overall good of the community. There is a time trials organization close to my home that loses money at some 'away' events. Said funds are 'regained' at local events. Perhaps it is time to remind the Bean Counters that being of service to the community means sometimes you need to swallow a loss for an overall gain.


    Quote Originally Posted by Anne View Post
    When you try to introduce a non-racing friend to your sport, do you entice them with the fact that there are 60 Miatas out there going at each other? Not a chance. You point to FA/FCs and track records and comparison with Indy or F1 and historic racing names like Andrettis and Rahal and even, heaven knows, Bill Scott. You eliminate these cars, you eliminate a great deal of your lustre. Anybody can walk into a car dealership and buy a Miata...
    Agree 100%. While i respect the abilities of various cars (Miata, WRx, M3, etc), there is a long history of formula cars. Rarely attend show and shine grass events as i see them as lame (please stay with my point here), i would bet the FC will get much more attention than the exotic on the one or two events per year i drag my cars to. So perhaps it is time for the leagues to realize the publicity factor. Are they missing a huge untapped market of filling the grass/grandstands? This income could help to expand/subsidize the event's cost, and dare i say it, lower the fees we racers pay to support THEIR events.


    Quote Originally Posted by roadrace27 View Post
    numbers and money talk!
    no one can expect to keep racing forever as car counts decrease while other classes increase.
    Agreed from a Pure Profit standpoint, though at what 'costs' to the overall spirit of racing?


    Quote Originally Posted by theQman23 View Post
    ...This being said, I would recommend two things from a "newbie" point of view. And before you discount the "newbie" point of view, remember that it's the "newbie" point of view that brings in new racers, and feeds the series, and keeps everyone going. If you don't have time or the patience for the new guy's opinion, then you aren't promoting your sport......
    <raises hand> Hi, my name is Steven and am a newbie. No one needs to remind me WHY i am about to part with very hard-earned funds to get an FC car. Though if a league or other FC'ers make me feel unwelcome they can kiss my @$$ goodby. On the other hand, the FC (and the like) community should get together and find a way to have a powerful voice of unity within the community. Remember the 2005 F1 race in Indy... amazing how a massive walk out can cause the league to rethink their direction.

    (Phew) Well, post #2 is now 'in the bag.'
    Enjoy the Drive,

    Steven R.

  7. #127
    Senior Member Amon's Avatar
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    Default Marrs

    I would like to thank Andy , Stan, Anne and others for their efforts to clarify
    the open wheel car owners position on the SM Board. I tried and failed
    miserably, and part of it was my fault as I didn't always keep my cool.
    Nevertheless, I don't remember any of the open wheel crowd cussing
    as did the SM supporters, and they are to be commended.

    Hopefully, because of the GCR, emails, or just dumb luck, this ruling will be
    reversed because it will be used as an example by other SM drivers in regions
    outside of WDCR to expand their grip on the club. If you don't think it can
    happen to you, think again because every Miata member is watching this
    closely and will base their future actions on it.

    Good luck to everyone and I'll keep my fingers crossed until this Saturday!

    Mark


    Formula First Driver (95' Citation-Dunn)

  8. #128
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    not sure about all the other miata folks in the country, but i got the feeling from talking with the reps here that they feel they explored/considered all the possibilities presented and decided to vote with the majority (as in best for the WDC region overall) as it had no immediate effect on them either way.

    as to helping us, i notice you would be a wings'n'things driver if you came to WDC/SP, were you planning on joining us for some races next year or just watching what happens here to be able to anticipate what might happen out your way?

    keith

  9. #129
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    Default Huh?

    ...okay, just saw this thread,....yikes! Hope this isn't a trend. Ran with you, George, a few years back on a trip down from NE. A good time was had. Field was not huge then, seems to have been diluted now with f2000, and various Pro series attracting many winged folks. Having spoken with Topeka about those "thank you for your input" form letters, I can honestly say I wasn't impressed. Some folks seem to hear without listening. I probably don't get the "big picture", but sure seems that the current thinking is geared toward recruitment, at the expense of retention. Sure don't want to see anyone's equity evaporate as a result.
    Just my 3 cents worth (inflation, don't you know...)
    Smitty

  10. #130
    Senior Member Amon's Avatar
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    Default Marrs

    Keith:

    Actually I would be in the FV/FST grouping so I wouldn't run with the FA/FC's etc..
    I have three tracks within 90 miles of my home, so I rarely venture anywhere
    else. However, if I could be provided with bodyguards at SP, I might consider it.

    Actually, some SM driver posted my latest Apexspeed post on their website and called me a twerp. I guess the cussing by their leader is wearing off on the others. They seem to
    think the issue wasn't started by them, but their leader said in his first post that he
    had been working on the issue for three years. THEY seem to forget this fact. This issue
    didn't just appear on it's own, someone had to initiate it.

    The majority of the SM drivers in other parts may have not considered this move...Yet.
    I strongly believe that the issue will occur in other parts if the open wheel crowd loses.
    I hope I'm wrong and we can turn the verdict around...Thanks!


    Mark

  11. #131
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    Default Number Crunching

    [QUOTE]
    Quote Originally Posted by John Nesbitt View Post
    Three thoughts, and then I'll get back to my day job:

    1. How did we get here?

    It's the numbers. There is no vast conspiracy to run open wheel out of WDCR. Open wheel is accomplishing that all on its own.

    Open wheel numbers have been steadily declining, at the same time as SM/IT numbers have been shooting up. There are only so many hours in the weekend, which produces a maximum number of run groups, into which you can stuff only so many cars.

    This issue has been on the table for the past several years. In 2006, FC and FV numbers took a big dip, and we evidently reached a tipping point.
    I greatly appreciate the Fight you and Chas have been fighting (especially on the heels of the Runoffs). I raced at a fair amount of the MARRS over the last two years and I disagree with some of your adjectives:

    FC & FA are very closely related only separated by a few seconds (and many$$$). If you Zetec an FC it becomes an FA and for the sake of argument Wings= FA, FC, FM, FS, FSSCA, & F1000

    1. 2005 was the down year for Wings but do you remember some MARRS were the same weekends as Nationals (intentional or not)?
    2. By the paid car count numbers, Wings average participation nearly doubled from 5.7 in 2005 to 10 in 2006.
    3. Our entire group of Wings-n-Things went from an average count of 17 in 2005 to 21 in 2006, a 20% increase.
    4. "Shooting up?" The SM group went from 34 to 35 average count, SSM 28 to 32. The IT calculation is more difficult because it is mixed into different groups but in general, of the 6 tin top groups, average count only increased 4% from 214 to 223.
    5. Anbody notice that the 2006 Driver's schools number was the lowest in 4 years? So where is the influx of all these new drivers coming from? Hmmmm.

    Anyway, keep up the fight!
    Chris FC #91

  12. #132
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    maybe not initiated by SM/SSM, but yeah, they support the idea for the good of the clubs expansion in WDC. at present it looks to benefit the small/big bore people more. a couple years ago the SM field WAS bigger and may have been close to the limit sometimes, but with them getting national status this year, there are lots of our guys that stopped running regionals and went on tour, one of them got rookie of the year in NE SM.


    i and another WDC FSCCA driver were out at mid-ohio where we had an FSCCA series race on top of your double, maybe will run into you in the paddock for a chat. not sure if we get national status for next year or if i will just have to come out that way just to run regionals.... either way, loved the track, just need to get lots quicker.

    keith

  13. #133
    Contributing Member Rick Kirchner's Avatar
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    I read thru the entire SM thread at lunch. All I can say, is I'm continually impressed with the quality of the members here on Apexspeed. Although we all have a tendency to bash other classes a tad, and there are the occasional "professional disagreements", the level of professionalism on this forum surpasses that of any other forum I've been a member of or visited, and that includes:

    Supra Forums
    two different Altima Forums
    The Diesel page
    the TYPE4um
    Rennlist
    Golf and Jetta Forums

    The S2 and FV forums are on par with this site as well. A couple of the FSCCA guys got a little snippy over dissent with their opinions a few days back, but for the most part, we all seem to accomodate each other, and folks wanting to get into racing in general, very well.

    I think the Avatars say a lot about the person behind them (I suppose that's the way psycology works!) and it's commendable that we don't have a ton of folks that need to express themselves with a lot of garbage pics, a list of every website they frequent, and every car with every performance mod they own. Just a bunch of intelligent, level headed folks working to promote our sport. Big Kudos to the Carters for maintaining the environment that fosters this kind of comraderie.

    The whole thread on the SM forum reminded me of dealing with a teenager - the rules don't apply and ME, ME, ME!!

    It will be interesting to see when and if the national office steps in, if they see this as a challenge to national authority and unity, etc.

  14. #134
    Contributing Member John Nesbitt's Avatar
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    Default Trends

    [quote=Clat91;120101]

    1. 2005 was the down year for Wings but do you remember some MARRS were the same weekends as Nationals (intentional or not)?
    2. By the paid car count numbers, Wings average participation nearly doubled from 5.7 in 2005 to 10 in 2006.
    3. Our entire group of Wings-n-Things went from an average count of 17 in 2005 to 21 in 2006, a 20% increase.
    4. "Shooting up?" The SM group went from 34 to 35 average count, SSM 28 to 32. The IT calculation is more difficult because it is mixed into different groups but in general, of the 6 tin top groups, average count only increased 4% from 214 to 223.
    5. Anbody notice that the 2006 Driver's schools number was the lowest in 4 years? So where is the influx of all these new drivers coming from? Hmmmm.
    Chris,

    Your points are well-taken. Depending on what data points one looks at, one can draw many conclusions.

    Consider the following. I picked two comparable races close to my heart: the last MARRS races of 2003 (which was the first Summit Point race I attended, and which persuaded me to buy my first racecar), and 2006 (the last race I competed in). I promise that I did not go shopping for numbers favorable to my argument; these were the two races I picked.

    In 2003, non-production classes produced 60 of 235 starters, or 25.5% of the effective entry. In 2006, non-production classes produced 53 of 256 starters, or 20.7%.

    I venture to suggest that, if you look further back, the numbers will support the declining proportion of non-production classes hypothesis. (In 1999, the oldest year for which the DC Region website shows a post-Labor Day MARRS race, the non-production share was 27.1%.)

    Bottom line: there are more entries today, and a larger proportion of them are production-based.
    John Nesbitt
    ex-Swift DB-1

  15. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rick Kirchner View Post
    I read thru the entire SM thread at lunch. All I can say, is I'm continually impressed with the quality of the members here on Apexspeed. Although we all have a tendency to bash other classes a tad, and there are the occasional "professional disagreements", the level of professionalism on this forum surpasses that of any other forum I've been a member of or visited, and that includes:

    Supra Forums
    two different Altima Forums
    The Diesel page
    the TYPE4um
    Rennlist
    Golf and Jetta Forums

    The S2 and FV forums are on par with this site as well. A couple of the FSCCA guys got a little snippy over dissent with their opinions a few days back, but for the most part, we all seem to accomodate each other, and folks wanting to get into racing in general, very well.

    I think the Avatars say a lot about the person behind them (I suppose that's the way psycology works!) and it's commendable that we don't have a ton of folks that need to express themselves with a lot of garbage pics, a list of every website they frequent, and every car with every performance mod they own. Just a bunch of intelligent, level headed folks working to promote our sport. Big Kudos to the Carters for maintaining the environment that fosters this kind of comraderie.

    The whole thread on the SM forum reminded me of dealing with a teenager - the rules don't apply and ME, ME, ME!!

    It will be interesting to see when and if the national office steps in, if they see this as a challenge to national authority and unity, etc.
    There are plenty of childish comments to go around on both sides of this issue. The calm voices of John and Keith are welcome relief.
    Last edited by Olsinvest; 11.15.06 at 10:11 PM. Reason: Additional sentence

  16. #136
    Senior Member FC63F's Avatar
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    Default Marrs Battle

    I posted the below to the Miata web. They need to lock the players in a room and not let them out until they have a solution that is equitable for all. Thre is a way out - everyone is presenting "facts" to prove the justness of their position rather than looking and considering a solution.

    [SIZE=2]All

    In the spirit of full disclosure, I drive a CFC Reynard 90 in CenDiv in the Waterford Hills Series and the Great Lakes FC/CFC Challenge

    After reading allllllll of the posts and counterposts - the real issue here is that club racing should not be a zero sum game with "I win and you lose" approach to running things. That may be how it is on the track but it should not be true as to how we live with each other.

    My suggestion is that the key players get in a room and find a solution that doesn't lead to disenfranchising (spelling) of a class of trade. Everyone will have to give a little to win in total. I find it hard to believe there isn't an "equitable" solution

    If you look at the mess in Iraq, the problem with the various groups is that no one will compromise - to give a little to get a lot - Giving a little is viewed as losing. They will battle until there is nothing left to battle over. Don't Let this series fall into that trap.

    For perspective, At Waterford Hills, we run FA,FC,CFC,CF,FF,F1000,Fx AND DSR,CSR. 20 -25 cars or so per week end. We also run F500 and FV with split starts - seems to work. SRF is with the full bodied cars.

    Side comment - the issue with racing with FV's when in a FC is not just the overtake which is pretty significant but the onset of braking by a V - can be 75-100 feet earlier and that has to be carefully calculated in traffic. It can be done but I have seen some nasty events. At Waterford Hills we have an open wheel co-driver event to encourage new drivers where all open wheel and SRF's are out. It pays to be on the pole

    Good luck to all of you as you work it out.

    David Keep
    mikeep63@yahoo.com
    Reynard 90SF [/SIZE]
    [SIZE=2][/SIZE]
    [SIZE=2][/SIZE]
    [SIZE=2]Big fun on the east coast[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=2][/SIZE]
    [SIZE=2]David Keep[/SIZE]

  17. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by FC63F View Post
    I posted the below to the Miata web. They need to lock the players in a room and not let them out until they have a solution that is equitable for all. Thre is a way out - everyone is presenting "facts" to prove the justness of their position rather than looking and considering a solution.

    [SIZE=2]All[/SIZE]

    [SIZE=2]In the spirit of full disclosure, I drive a CFC Reynard 90 in CenDiv in the Waterford Hills Series and the Great Lakes FC/CFC Challenge [/SIZE]

    [SIZE=2]After reading allllllll of the posts and counterposts - the real issue here is that club racing should not be a zero sum game with "I win and you lose" approach to running things. That may be how it is on the track but it should not be true as to how we live with each other. [/SIZE]

    [SIZE=2]My suggestion is that the key players get in a room and find a solution that doesn't lead to disenfranchising (spelling) of a class of trade. Everyone will have to give a little to win in total. I find it hard to believe there isn't an "equitable" solution[/SIZE]

    [SIZE=2]If you look at the mess in Iraq, the problem with the various groups is that no one will compromise - to give a little to get a lot - Giving a little is viewed as losing. They will battle until there is nothing left to battle over. Don't Let this series fall into that trap.[/SIZE]

    [SIZE=2]For perspective, At Waterford Hills, we run FA,FC,CFC,CF,FF,F1000,Fx AND DSR,CSR. 20 -25 cars or so per week end. We also run F500 and FV with split starts - seems to work. SRF is with the full bodied cars.[/SIZE]

    [SIZE=2]Side comment - the issue with racing with FV's when in a FC is not just the overtake which is pretty significant but the onset of braking by a V - can be 75-100 feet earlier and that has to be carefully calculated in traffic. It can be done but I have seen some nasty events. At Waterford Hills we have an open wheel co-driver event to encourage new drivers where all open wheel and SRF's are out. It pays to be on the pole[/SIZE]

    [SIZE=2]Good luck to all of you as you work it out. [/SIZE]

    [SIZE=2]David Keep[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=2]mikeep63@yahoo.com[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=2]Reynard 90SF [/SIZE]


    [SIZE=2]Big fun on the east coast[/SIZE]

    [SIZE=2]David Keep[/SIZE]
    David, that is fine that you posted that on the SM.com site, but did you also post it at the IT sites, the FV site, etc.? My point being that we (SM Drivers) have taken all the heat for this from the majority (minus a few calmer heads). I don't mind the name calling, because it only shows a lack of intelligence and ability to express oneself. But I keep seeing print attacking us, when we do not benefit nor suffer any detriment from this decision. Yes our Rep sated that he has worked on this for 3 years, but everyone assumes that he has tried to get rid of these classes for 3 years, when actually he has worked on finding a solution to the problem of overcrowding/declining car counts for 3 years, not trying to get rid of FA, etc.

    Contrary to what some have written and may even truly believe, we all consider you family and do not want to see this happen, unfortunately, a few (not Miata Drivers) have been unwilling to co-operate.
    Last edited by Olsinvest; 11.16.06 at 9:51 AM. Reason: spelling

  18. #138
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    Default Rally the troops

    As I posted on the Miata site, I am curious to see how many drivers the "reps" speak for and are they strong arming those who are on the fence?

    Also I have made repeated post that this is not a SM vs wing issue, but Mike relished in the afterglow. And the first "I" publicly heard this idea was (maybe) 2-3 years ago at the open meeting.

    I KNOW there are SM and IT (all fender) drivers out there who disagree with what is being done and how it is being done. I have spoken to many of them. I ask you and those in your groups to help in fighting this and voice your opinion. The club has procedures for dealing with SIMILAR situations like this. They should be followed.


    PLEASE RALLY YOUR DRIVERS AND WRITE THE BOARD OF DIRECTORS, IT COULD BE YOU OR YOUR FRIEND NEXT
    [SIZE=3][/SIZE]
    [SIZE=3][/SIZE]
    [SIZE=3]Gayle Lorenz [/SIZE]gslorenz@sccaracer.com
    [SIZE=3]Chuck Allard callard@erols.com[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=3]Bill Radford billradford@comcast.net[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=3]Ian Baker cspcrx89@hotmail.com[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=3]Phil Dame pldame@earthlink.net[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=3]BIll Hutchins [/SIZE]hutbill@aol.com
    [SIZE=3]Ron Shurie racingron@microperformance.com[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=3]Jerry Wanarka GLWannarka@aol.com[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=3][/SIZE]
    [SIZE=3]Area director[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=3]Brian Holtz BHoltz@scca.com[/SIZE]

    Andy
    Last edited by Andy Chu; 11.16.06 at 10:44 AM. Reason: font

  19. #139
    Senior Member Amon's Avatar
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    Default Marrs

    Alan:


    With all due respect. I have to take exception to your latest post. The SM Driver's
    Rep. stated the following in his initial post dated 11-09-06 at 10:56 P.M. 3RD Paragraph:

    "Please remember that this is a club and some of our members were asked not to
    play with us, be kind. I know this is something that I HAVE WORKED HARD ON FOR
    SEVERAL YEARS, but it did not go over well with some of the specialties and
    representatives from the classes that were restricted." ( End of quote)

    His ( SM reps.) 2nd post which was made on 11-10-06 at 7:34 states the following:

    Quote:

    "Although I appreciate the support and you know that I HAVE BEEN A CHAMPION
    OF RESTRICTED REGIONALS FOR SEVERAL YEARS, we need to respect our club
    members who to find a place to race will need to follow the NATIONAL CIRCUIT."
    (End of Quote)

    I don't want revisionist history to be the final say on this board and thought it
    proper to provide the facts concerning the statements made by the SM rep.
    earlier in the week. These are facts, not slander , not trashing of anyone and
    are a respectful disagreement of Alan's earlier post. I respect his thoughts but
    don't agree with them Thank you!

    Mark

  20. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andy Chu View Post
    As I posted on the Miata site, I am curious to see how many drivers the "reps" speak for and are they strong arming those who are on the fence?

    Also I have made repeated post that this is not a SM vs wing issue, but Mike relished in the afterglow. And the first "I" publicly heard this idea was (maybe) 2-3 years ago at the open meeting.

    I KNOW there are SM and IT (all fender) drivers out there who disagree with what is being done and how it is being done. I have spoken to many of them. I ask you and those in your groups to help in fighting this and voice your opinion. The club has procedures for dealing with SIMILAR situations like this. They should be followed.


    PLEASE RALLY YOUR DRIVERS AND WRITE THE BOARD OF DIRECTORS, IT COULD BE YOU OR YOUR FRIEND NEXT


    [SIZE=3]Gayle Lorenz [/SIZE]gslorenz@sccaracer.com
    [SIZE=3]Chuck Allard callard@erols.com[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=3]Bill Radford billradford@comcast.net[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=3]Ian Baker cspcrx89@hotmail.com[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=3]Phil Dame pldame@earthlink.net[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=3]BIll Hutchins [/SIZE]hutbill@aol.com
    [SIZE=3]Ron Shurie racingron@microperformance.com[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=3]Jerry Wanarka GLWannarka@aol.com[/SIZE]

    [SIZE=3]Area director[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=3]Brian Holtz BHoltz@scca.com[/SIZE]

    Andy
    I don't know if your post was a response to mine or not, however, I feel that I can speak for the vast majority of SM drivers when I say that Mike has our support. He is not "strong arming" anyone. Mike was not "relishing in the afterglow". Quite the opposite actually. I know Mike quite well as I raced with his team all last year and purchased one of my cars from him, he is not the type to "relish" this happening to anyone. As a matter of fact, he is always very helpful in the paddock whenever anyone needs assistance. Any posts to the contrary are just trying to start animosity between drivers and are counterproductive.
    Last edited by Olsinvest; 11.16.06 at 11:02 AM. Reason: spelling

  21. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amon View Post
    Alan:


    With all due respect. I have to take exception to your latest post. The SM Driver's
    Rep. stated the following in his initial post dated 11-09-06 at 10:56 P.M. 3RD Paragraph:

    "Please remember that this is a club and some of our members were asked not to
    play with us, be kind. I know this is something that I HAVE WORKED HARD ON FOR
    SEVERAL YEARS, but it did not go over well with some of the specialties and
    representatives from the classes that were restricted." ( End of quote)

    His ( SM reps.) 2nd post which was made on 11-10-06 at 7:34 states the following:

    Quote:

    "Although I appreciate the support and you know that I HAVE BEEN A CHAMPION
    OF RESTRICTED REGIONALS FOR SEVERAL YEARS, we need to respect our club
    members who to find a place to race will need to follow the NATIONAL CIRCUIT."
    (End of Quote)

    I don't want revisionist history to be the final say on this board and thought it
    proper to provide the facts concerning the statements made by the SM rep.
    earlier in the week. These are facts, not slander , not trashing of anyone and
    are a respectful disagreement of Alan's earlier post. I respect his thoughts but
    don't agree with them Thank you!

    Mark
    Mark I thought you didn't post here?

    Mike has been working on this issue for several years, It has been a problem for much longer, as Al Bell stated, it has been an issue before Mike even had a Competition License. The Competition Committee was going to have to do something and after a long (several years) exhaustive discussion on how to address the issue, the result was what we now have. To place the blame on one person is very myopic and does not place responsibility on the appropriate parties.

  22. #142
    Senior Member Amon's Avatar
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    Default Marrs:

    Alan:

    When I made my initial statement, I hadn't posted here in several
    years. Only in the last few days have I begun to post again.

    I stand by the quotes that Mike made on the Miata website. He
    obviously had help with this unfortunate turn of events. You
    maybe correct about his gloating, but several of the other SM
    drivers posted gloating comments right after Mike's announcement!
    If you want, I can post their comments in quotations as to what
    they said in their posts. Again, I respectfully disagree with your
    conclusion. Thanks!

    Mark

  23. #143
    Senior Member FC63F's Avatar
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    Default

    To all - Miata, IT, wings, tin tops, formual cars, GT's and anyone else in the Maars world.

    It does not matter who shot John and who was rigid and who has gloated etc. That is all history

    What I have said before is that the players need to be locked in a room and an equitable solution worked out. I find it beyond reason to believe there is not a way forward that leaves the club as a whole better off than the current situation. Disenfranchising viable classes can not be an acceptable answer. I should be unacceptable to the Spec Miata group. IT, GT Production etc to have another viable class shut out. There are other viable solution. Everyone is going to have to compromise a bit

    My final observation is that if this current approach is allowed to continue - the short term gains for some groups (who ever they are) will be vastly out weighed by the losses to the club as a whole. Miata group is already getting the hit for this right or wrong.

    It you can see that truth -- then you will go back a redo the plan

    I would post this on the Miata web but I am blocked on this computer due to our firewall

    David Keep
    Reynard 90SF

  24. #144
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Amon View Post
    Alan:

    When I made my initial statement, I hadn't posted here in several
    years. Only in the last few days have I begun to post again.
    Less than 1 year, but I digress

    Quote Originally Posted by Amon View Post
    but several of the other SM
    drivers posted gloating comments right after Mike's announcement!
    If you want, I can post their comments in quotations as to what
    they said in their posts. Again, I respectfully disagree with your
    conclusion. Thanks!

    Mark
    I urge you to post his comments, yours as well.

    There was 1 person (Jason Meise) who is known to us as enjoying stirring the pot and being very confrontational. However in his defense, he may have been expressing his joy at something being done finally, not necessarily that fact that someone or several will not be able to race. Why not give the benefit of doubt? Not a single person has posted anything inflammatory or derogatory here. We are actually quite a great group of racers and enjoy the camaraderie.

    I have actually tired of this as many minds have been made up to blame us, go ahead. It will get you nowhere and may make you feel better.

    My offer still stands to any of you that have been affected. We are a great big family (in my mind and many others') and I will continue to act accordingly.

  25. #145
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    Default Cooperation

    Olsinvest,

    You have said in a previous post that "a few have failed to cooperate"

    Please take this back to your group...

    The issues they have racing are a "Club" problem and it should be delt with as a Club. One group, be it FV or Wings should not be singled out or elmininated. What they are doing has done nothing but divide the club and create animosity. Cooperation requires both parties to give and take. When asked what they are willing to give up to help fix the problem, the response was "Nothing, They don't have to" If you would like to see the email exchange privately, I'll provide it to you.

    I appreciate YOUR perspective. Have you posted on the Miata board how this action is wrong? I don't know I haven't checked. If you haven't, please do so and contact the BoD as well.

    Andy

  26. #146
    Senior Member Amon's Avatar
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    Default Marrs

    Alan:

    You're correct, it was 12-09-2005 at 1:53 P.M. that I last posted before
    this month. I'm sorry about the misinformation, it only seemed like 2+
    years ago. I guess that's what happens when you're closer to 50 than
    age 40. Thanks!

    Mark

  27. #147
    Classifieds Super License Charles Warner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Nesbitt View Post
    Assuming this goes back to the committee, all options will be on the table: a single race group for FV-to-FA, split double weekends, 10 race groups with a rotating drop, and any other credible option. Something will get hammered out, and all classes will have a place to run.

    Next year, the various open wheel classes would very well to get as many entries as they can, as Gayle suggested. It's a numbers game. Race groups evolve according to the number of cars that actually turn out. Anybody who sits out next year should not come crying when the knives come out again.
    John,

    I guess there are several takes on this issue. I understand all your comments/arguments. However, your statements above seem to mirror the attitude as presented by Mike C. et al on the Spec Miata BB that they can do whatever they want regardless of what the GCR says. I do not comprehend why such intelligent people have the arrogance to feel they can do whatever THEY want and that their desires supercede the rulebook. Any of the proposals that would be put forth will have to follow the GCR.

    Everyone is talking about writing the WDCR Board and RE. Instead they should be writing the CRB/BOD of the SCCA! They are the ones tasked with the interpretation and enforcement of the rules, not ANY local region or competition committee.

    IOW, the WDCR still will not have the authority to wield any knives. This is a Club and each of its dues-paying members has the same rights as any other member. We don't get votes based on the income we have or the income we produce.

    If the WDCR can convince the BOD/CRB to issue a season long restricted competition sanction that directly contravenes the GCR then I guess they'll be able to exclude their members, even though it will mean their open wheel novice drivers (in the classes excluded) will be forced to go farther afield to get the experience necessary for a national license. What classes would be excluded the next year? The rest of the formula car classes? Production based classes (yes, that comment was made on the Spec Miata BB - that these cars were really not that welcomed either)?
    Charlie Warner
    fatto gatto racing

    'Cause there's bugger-all down here on earth!

  28. #148
    Contributing Member John Nesbitt's Avatar
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    Charlie,

    That was not my argument at all. I believe that the WDCR Board will reject the exclusion of any GCR classes.

    The real issue (all sorts of folks claim to have a handle on the 'real issue', but my interpretation is correct ) is the allocation of race groups. At present the production-based classes have 6 and the non-production classes 3.

    The proposal in the competition meeting was to make the split 7 and 2. This was resisted, and, in the fracas that followed, the committee voted to exclude the winged formula cars, leaving one group for sports racers, and one for Vee's and Fords.

    When this comes back to the competition committee, we shall still be faced with fitting all the GCR and regional classes into 9 groups (or 10, if we restructure the weekends).

    My only argument (so far) has been that the committee acted unfairly, and perhaps against the GCR, in excluding members from competition. When the committee revisits the issue, we shall still be faced with how to fit the various classes into groups.
    Last edited by John Nesbitt; 11.16.06 at 2:36 PM. Reason: Grammar
    John Nesbitt
    ex-Swift DB-1

  29. #149
    Classifieds Super License Charles Warner's Avatar
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    John,

    Apologies if I misread your posts. I agree with you. I do, however, think that the WDCR may have to accept 3 race groups for the classes in question, or 2 with the SRFs put in with a production based group as is done in quite a few regions.

    There really is no great problem with putting all the formula cars together. I understand the FV reluctance, but I think it is more to do with amount of track time translating into fewer laps for the FVs as they are lapped by the fastest atlantic and lose "laps" - yet the track time is the same. Not sure there is anything that can be done about this other than increase the number of laps for the formula car races. I imagine this would irritate the SM guys.

    My main points are that the GCR must be followed, and every region member of any region deserves the same right to race as any other regardless of car. I am irritated by the fact that tthe WDCR enacted this plan at all and then tried to blame it on the FV rep, although his intransigience is a factor. I feel this was slipped in the back door (even if it was "on the table" for a long time - maybe "under the table" is more appropriate.) Another issue has come to light that some of the SM/SSM proponents have a financial stake in this issue as they rent these cars out and there is threat to potential income here. That, IMO, should not even be a player and those guys should recuse themselves from any official status.
    Charlie Warner
    fatto gatto racing

    'Cause there's bugger-all down here on earth!

  30. #150
    Senior Member Amon's Avatar
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    Default Sm

    Andy:

    They're unfortunately disecting your latest post on their website as strong arming
    and ballsy! It's a shame, and we know you were just trying to provide e-mail addresses to SM drivers, so they can send their opinion to those in charge. Thanks!

    Mark

  31. #151
    Contributing Member ric baribeault's Avatar
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    Default 6 pages of pissed

    i apologize if i am being repititious but i couldn't read all six pages. i would like to make a couple of points that i didn't pick up in what i did read.
    1. i believe what is happening in DC region violates GCR.
    2. i believe this is coming from the same person directly responsible for the runoffs FC mess
    3. if i were mike or dave i'd get a lawyer and drag her ass into court.....forever
    4. i don't think national will allow this to happen.
    5. if they do, there are nicer clubs to run with (see previous 6 pages).
    6. and DSR/CSR will be next (sorry anne... poland, france...remember? something about
    those who forget history... blah...blah....blah...
    7. i've been racing long enough to have seen fields in the NE so large you had to qualify to
    race. and i didn't think that was a bad thing. get faster or go home.
    8. and the hardest blow of all... pluto is no longer a planet (or so angelo tells me)

    my 2 cents.....ric

    ps. charlie, still have that march? i'm almost ready

  32. #152
    Senior Member Amon's Avatar
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    Default Marrs

    Ric:

    Great post! I hate to tell you but it's 7 pages now! Just pulling your chain.

    Thanks!

    Mark

  33. #153
    Senior Member Stan Clayton's Avatar
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    I pretty much agree with what Charlie has written in his two most recent posts, with one exception. I think it is just as important that members write the WDCR BoD as it is to write the CRB and SCCA BoD. The Regional leadership needs to understand in no uncertain terms that their responsibilities to the membership extend to ALL members, and not just to the most popular classes of the moment.

    And they are feeling the heat, too. One WDCR BoD member was so impressed with my communications on the topic that he proposed in an email that the Board institute a daily call to me seeking my "valuable opinion"...at 4 o'clock in the morning!

    Problem was he sent the email to me instead of to his follow Board members. Of course, in the spirit of fair play I forwarded his suggestion to the rest of the Board. I wouldn't want them to miss out on his insight!

    Seriously, I think the CRB and SCCA BoD need to take concrete steps to close the "loophole" the guys in DC think they have found. To that end I will ask the CRB to propose to the SCCA BoD an additional paragraph to 3.17.2., with effect from 1 Jan 07.

    J. A region shall not conduct more than two (2) restricted competitions per year.

    Regions seeking an exception to this may do so under the provisions of the very next section of the GCR, just as they do now to hold more than 2 Nationals.

    Stan
    Stan Clayton
    Stohr Cars

  34. #154
    Contributing Member Tom Valet's Avatar
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    Default

    that the Board institute a daily call to me seeking my "valuable opinion"...at 4 o'clock in the morning!
    Stan, you mis-read the e-mail...they are going to start calling you at 4 am every day as part of their campaign to endlessly harrass open-wheelers!

    Seriously though, I for one am very impressed with the way that you have gone about trying to get this problem fixed. And from the sound of things it appears that you have succeeded in at least getting the DC region to take a fresh look at this issue and come up with a solution fair to all.

    Thanks, and take care.

    Tom

  35. #155
    Contributing Member ric baribeault's Avatar
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    Default 7 pages of pissed.

    7 pages it is. egggggceeellent stan.
    i almost forgot..... mike and dave, absolutely amazing drives.

  36. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andy Chu View Post
    The issues they have racing are a "Club" problem and it should be delt with as a Club.
    Andy,

    It has been dealt with as the club by-laws require. The by-laws give the competition committee the responsibility for the road racing program. It is unclear whether the BoD directly can overturn this decision or order it reconsidered. The only power they have is appointing the Competition Director and Speciality Chiefs. They also can use the power of the purse. And BEFORE the BoD tries to send this back, they need to have the By-laws Committee determine if the BoD can intervene. If they meet without doing this, anyone raising a Point of Privilege will stop the proceeding until a judgement is made.

    Read the section on standing committees and in particular the section establishing a permanent Competition Committee. This was adopted a few years ago and its entire purpose was to keep the BoD from having oversight of the CC. Some of us who were on the BoD at the time spoke against this change to the by-laws for that reason. The membership decided to approve it anyway.

    One group, be it FV or Wings should not be singled out or elmininated. What they are doing has done nothing but divide the club and create animosity. Cooperation requires both parties to give and take. When asked what they are willing to give up to help fix the problem, the response was "Nothing, They don't have to" If you would like to see the email exchange privately, I'll provide it to you.
    This is an issue over the management of a scarce resource - track time.

    There is insufficient participation among the two run groups to justify the status quo. Do not blame the Region or closed-wheel drivers for that. The responsibility for getting more open-wheel cars to Summit Point rests with the open-wheel drivers.

    In 2003, ITC averaged 14+ cars per event. IN 2004, it averaged 12+. In 2005, it averaged 10+. Several ITC drivers actively lobbied the owners of garaged cars and people considering joining the ranks to come out. We added 2 more cars in 2006 and in all likelihood, will be adding 3+ more. Where is the similar effort by FVee or F5 or.....?

    The reason this has blown up is like a turd in the swimming pool. Everybody sees it, everybody smells it, but nobody is willing to fish it out.

    The blow up has been caused by the refusal of one DR to accept anything other than the status quo or the elimination of classes that DO not solve the problem of resource allocation.

    Please don't tell me that the "evil closed-wheel" drivers refuse to cooperate or compromise.

    Every person to whom I have spoken has said that they wish there was a way we could keep all of the classes, but..... with that one DR refusing to run with fast formula or sports racers, there only was one solution.
    Nobody to whom I have spoken wanted to refuse a place to play to anyone, but given the intransigence of one DR and the need for a reshuffling, there pretty much was only one solution.
    Every person to whom I spoke has said that they felt the open-wheel cars deserved a season to increase their participation, but "what's the point? Xxxxxx won't accept that and won't live up to it even if he does."

    Even if the CC decision is overturned on procedural grounds:
    1. The Region is under no obligation to accept an entry from anyone
    2. The GCR does not specify the amount of track time that any race group is to receive
    3. The GCR does not require a uniform entry fee
    4. The Region could create an entire slate of DC-ONLY classes whose rules are identical to the GCR
    5. If the Region is forced to overturn this decision based on GCR-procedural grounds, kiss goodbye Club Ford, because before the Region turns away a SINGLE GCR-mandated class, it has to execute every region-specific class.

    Why a situation where 61 drivers are sent home over 10 drivers is "better" is beyond me. More importantly, I fail to see why the situation sending either 61 drivers or 10 drivers home is required simply because one class won't accept anything less than what they have now.

    Jeff

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    Senior Member JByers's Avatar
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    Todd,
    After reading the last post by Jeff, I can see why you don't feel welcome attending MARRS events.

    Jason

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    Location
    Ranson, WV
    Posts
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    Liked: 29

    Default

    aaaahhhg!!!!

    lets make it clear, whatever the stance people are taking here....

    if the issue is track time, there is no difference before and after.... 9 groups vs 9 groups, 15 min qual practice and 16 lap races for EVERYONE!!!!

    make that CLEAR track time and i will let it slide. basically it seems like the people for it seem to think they should not have to work hard to pass their competition that they want to have good races with more people in the same class.

    name 1 person in 2006 that was turned away because a group was oversubscribed.

    keith

  39. #159
    Senior Member Amon's Avatar
    Join Date
    10.07.02
    Location
    Medina, Ohio
    Posts
    1,520
    Liked: 174

    Default Turned away

    Jeff:


    I would appreciate it if you can tell us when 61 drivers were turned away. I 've
    never heard of this happening and would appreciate the information. I look
    forward to hearing from you soon. Thanks for your help!

    Mark

  40. #160
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    11.15.06
    Location
    Maryland
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    Default

    Jeff,

    I disagree. I see no shortage of track time, for anyone. No one is being denied the chance to run due to the lack of track time. No one to my knowledge has been sent home because their class or group is oversubscribed or for any reason having anything to do with car counts. There is enough track time. The issue is that drivers in the sedan classes, who even though have enough track time, are dissatisfied with the quality of the track time to which they have been allotted, due to their large numbers.

    It is not an issue of low car counts in other groups. Come on, if the sedan classes had only 10 or 15 cars in their groups, no one would care about car counts in other groups would they?

    The issue of car counts is only a means of justifying the demand, not the problem per se, ie due to the small numbers in the (whatever) group, and our greater numbers, we want (insert demand here).

    Look, I'll admit, it may be a legitimate gripe. I have no experience with sedan cars, and I don’t know what it’s like racing in those groups. I see it as a problem that needs to be solved, purely because the problem spills over into the rest of the club. Whatever sympathy I did have for those groups, went down the flusher when they proceeded with a course of action which caused a group of drivers to be excluded. I don’t want anyone to have a crummy race, but I don’t think anyone should be thrown under the bus either.

    Art
    Last edited by Art_Chu; 11.16.06 at 6:03 PM.

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