FC/FS/FM/FA/F1000 dropped from MARRS Series?

[Andy Chu]

After trying to negotiate a comprimise with the IT and SM guys, it has become apparent they"rule" the DC region and don't need to comprimise. The only "comprimise" they will support is one where FV runs with FA. There is a request to hear this issue by the Board of Directors on Sat. Please let your voice be heard.

You may not agree with the region or the club or want to get involved with club politics, but they need to hear from you. Even if you are out of region.

Below are the addresses of the Board. Please email them and have your friends and your firend's friends do the same. Especially if they drive a production car or a sedan.


[SIZE=3]Gayle Lorenz gslorenz@sccaracer.com[/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]Chuck Allard callard@erols.com[/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]Bill Radford billradford@comcast.net[/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]Ian Baker cspcrx89@hotmail.com[/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]Phil Dame pldame@earthlink.net[/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]Bill Hutchins hutbill@aol.com[/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]Ron Shurie racingron@microperformance.com[/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]Jerry Wanarka GLWannarka@aol.com[/SIZE]

[fv31]

i don't have a problem with spec miata and IT guys overall. i know a lot of them (it's hard not to!) and think they're good folks. the problem lies in the few that, as andy stated, are using their car counts to throw their weight around.

i'm not even a DC region member. i haven't raced at summit and don't plan to. i run SEDIV and usually run around 12-14 weekends a year, although this year i only ran 6 or 8. the thing is, if this is let to stand in one region, it will soon gain ground in others. it's like cancer. you have to stop it before it spreads.

i have been at SEDIV races where my group wound up with a total on track time for the entire weekend of 45 minutes. no practice, 15 mins. qualifying, and a 30 minute race. don't ask me where cause i don't remember. after somewhere in the neighborhood of 100 races in the last 6 years or so, i can't recall. but i remember the complaints by all.

the IT and spec miata cars had somewhere in the neighborhood of 4+ HOURS on track time for the weekend. they had an enduro for one series, an enduro for another series, a SARRC race, and all the associated qualifying sessions. i think it was even more than 4 hours but i don't want to commit totally to that. granted, they did pay for the time as each series had entries and such, and i remember remarking that their entry fees were like 700 bucks for the weekend. but is this really fair?????

we started saying that "we're getting IT'd to death". and if things like this come to pass, it's just a matter of time before it starts to spread. to think it won't is just naive. i've even heard tin top drivers discussing how to get even more track time and eliminate run groups so they could run more. i've heard it personally! (be careful what you talk about in a bathroom at the track when you don't know who's in the stalls. lol)

we run formula cars. lots of people are afraid of the open wheel situation, and i've had many tell me that the thought of open wheel gives them the willies. they want fenders. they want that comfort that fenders provide. and i have no problem with that. i think they deserve the same priveledge to race that we enjoy. i think they deserve equal footing, equal time, and to be treated fairly. they're not what i run, and not what i like. but there are those that do. and that's great. i'd rather have them racing something they're comfortable in than not racing at all. but it is not right to exclude someone else so they can get even more. especially when the someone else they exclude has been a part of club racing since way before their cars were even conceived.

it'll get worse, if it isn't stopped now.

bill
fv31

edit- the next line of attack in the future will be insurance. at some point, someone will figure out that maybe they can insure for less if they eliminate certain classes to cut risk. this is just crystal ball gazing and there's no basis in fact in this, but you have to admit, it makes sense. hopefully i'm not giving anyone ideas.

[Bob Devol]

Even though I'm leaving open wheel to return to SRF, this WDCR situation is, as Stan Clayton and Mike Sauce have stated, a clear threat to the viability of SCCA Club Racing, if not a blatant violation of the GCR. I'm behind you guys 100%!

And I really agree with Mike Rand's reminder that jumbo race groups like SM that can cause lengthy event delays should always be scheduled right before lunch or at the end of the day so the rest of us can get home or race at a reasonable hour. One example: the King of All SM Shunts at The Glen last September precipitated a 90-minute delay and had those of us in following race groups taking the track near sunset. If that had happened on Sunday, there would have been a revolt.

SM has its place, no doubt. It's the largest class now. But it shouldn't be at the expense of others.

[Steve Demeter]

If a region excludes classes recognized by the GCR at a regional race, does not said race have to be on the calendar as a restricted regional?

[T.Bardwell]

I sent this to the DC region BOD and others. Just a suggestion, please don't attack me if you don't like the idea. It's just food for thought. (This politically correct SHTuff drives me nuts)

This deletion of these open wheel classes from MARRS events is outrageous to say the least. The rules do NOT permit you to do this. You cannot RESTRICT nationally recognized classes, nor should you, in favor of support for NON-recognized classes such as SSM.

I think the overcrowding situation calls for restricted regionals too. HALF of the regionals should be restricted to "production base race cars", and the other HALF of the regionals will be restricted to "purpose built race cars". Split the Glen to one group, and VIR to the other, and then alternate years. Draw out of the hat for the remaining dates IN PUBLIC at the November meeting? This will free up track time and paddock space, and the race group MIX would actually provide for BETTER QUALITY TRACK TIME FOR ALL. You MAY even be able to pull off DOUBLE RACES on these revised weekends. This would potentially attract MORE COMPETITORS because the IMPROVED RACE GROUPS. One tow/hotel bill for 5 doubles? =10 MARRS races...OR EVEN 10 LAP QUALIFYING SPRINT RACES ON SATURDAYS, and/or longer races on sunday, the possibilities are endless, this seems SO easy to do. The doorslammers could even do sprints on saturday, and enduros on sunday. Just TRY IT for 1 season for pete sake. After ALL, we do not race with the rally cars, the national cars and solo cars ALL at the same time, at the same track. AT WHAT POINT DO WE SPLIT IT UP? I think NOW is as good a time as any to give this a try. If you HAVE TO race at the GLEN, and it's not on the MARRS schedule for your class this year, pick a date and go with another regional race there. EZ... The proliferation of new classes each year is causing this problem to get worse. FS, F1000, FSSCA, T2,T3, SSM, SM and on and on.... door slammers one weekend, and purpose built race cars the next.

I respectfully suggest we HAVE A REFERENDUM BY THE LICENSED RACERS... not private discussions with cronies about what each of you want or prefer...

I am sure the quality of racing will improve with this idea. The fields will most likely increase in size. WHY? By cutting in half the number of potential weekends one can race at MARRS, the number of potential racers will not be spread so thin. It could be a winner... but you have to TRY IT to see. A ONE SEASON PILOT SERIES, OR just a 4 event PILOT SERIES?

The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over, but expecting a different result.

[Andy Chu]

Steve, you are correct. They will run ONLY restricted regionals. Picking and choosing which National/ Regional classes they choose to run.

[Steve Maxwell]

Todd,

Mike Rand and I talked about this exact idea after the NARRC runoffs. The race group was full of every type of purpose built race car. We concluded that the problem was that you would get 60 entries for the purpose built weekend and 180 for the tin-top weekend. I'm not trying to pee in your cerial. I really like the idea. Maybe the allure of a "race car" only weekend would bring out 180 "race-car" drivers!! But, I think you are absolutely right that something of the ilk you bring up needs to be tried.

[Michael Rand]

Todd Bardwells suggestion has great merit, I believe. It also to some degree answers the bigger question of availability of race tracks.
If a region, in the current debate WDC, has 6 weekends allocated for regionals at a track, in this instance Summit Point, then the idea of restricting ALL weekends to certain classes yet accomodating ALL classes and turning ALL weekends into Double Regionals would seem to be a fine idea.
It has been well documented over the last few years that double event weekends, be they Regionals, ie The Fun One at the Glen in September, or Nationals, Pocono during the summer, are extremely well received by all competitors.
Some number crunching might show up some issues but overall it appears to be a sound concept. No additional weekends to try to staff, great possibilities for the organizing region with regards to enduros, no reduction in the number of rounds in a given championship, no need to try to get another precious weekend from the track-- by the way, there are no operating road courses which are not booked for weekends for 2007 RIGHT NOW ! And weekdays are, if not gone already, going very quickly.
There are circuits this might be all but impossible to do, Lime Rock springs to mind with Friday unmuffled racing not allowed per the injunction under which it operates. However, dual qualifying sessions on Friday followed by AM and PM races should work there.
This situation is somewhat unique, I believe, because there is only one SCCA Region running race weekends at Summit. Lime Rock, for instance, has 4 Regions over the course of a 4 or 5 regional season. The Glen 2, but NHIS has only one-New England- so there should be opportunities virtually everywhere SCCA has at least 2 regional events scheduled, regardless of region.
Would it require cooperation ? Obviously.
Should it be difficult ? No.
Does it require some adjustment of business the way it has been done for 50 plus years ? Yes.
Is that bad ? Absolutely not.
This would even open up possibilities for tracks interested in selling spectator tickets and should be presented as such.
Goes to show even a looney like Bardwell comes up with great ideas sometimes, well done bud. Now all that is needed is making it happen.
The regions put on races for racers. If we, airheads and door slammers together---and as a 40 year airhead I personally love the designation airhead and wish the other group wouldn't be so sensitive about names like tin tops-door slammers-fender cars--- vote as a block they must be responsive to their customers. Or they won't have customers, they are far from the only playground.
This is the proverbial win-win for all drivers regardless of car or class.

[Bob Devol]

The Split Double Race Format (there -- it now has a name) has great merit.

The devil will be in the details -- and the dollars.

But I don't think one Region should be forced to "take one for the team" to give this a trial run. Perhaps all the Regions in the Division could create a pool of funds to test and fine tune this format over several seasons to get it right for all parties involved: doorslammers, airheads, the workers, and the Regions.

The Split Double Format will become even more feasible as more Northeast venues, like Thunderbolt Raceway in New Jersey and NER's proposed Palmer, Mass. track, are added to the schedule.

This idea should be added to the agenda for debate at the NeDiv Round Table convention in March.

[Steve B]

Restricted regionals could be an effective market based solution to the proliferation of classes. A formula car only restricted regional is also the logical next step in the growth of "EWC" type regional series.

Survival of the fittest.

Steve Beeler, de facto EWC commissioner
Lola T-540 HU44
home: (734)416-8865 sbeeler@wowway.com
office: (313)390-1818 sbeeler@ford.com

[TimW]

This rotation of groups would work well in CenDiv as well. The regional championship series has historically been 16 races spread over 9 weekends. I can't make all 9 weekends, neither can many of the other drivers (I think you only need 6 starts to be in the championshp). So what this does is dilutes the field and we're racing with 2- 3 cars since we're all showing up to and skipping different races.

If the regions would construct say 10 race groups, but only race 6 at any one weekend (currently there are 8-9) rotating them across the year so each group has the same number of races we'd increase the quality of the track time as well as likely the quality of the field. If I know the Fords are going to be at race A, B, D & G I expect that the fields will be better subscribed since we all can't make 9 weekends anyway, we'll all corralled into showing up on the same weekends.

[Michael Rand]

Steve, yeah, the numbers do need crunching, but remember, the concept is to split all racing cars from the true street car based classes, so that means:

Race car weekend
all Formula and Spors racing cars including SRF
all Production class cars
all GT class cars
total 25 classes FA/C/CFC/M/1000/FF/CF/SCCA/V/500/ASR/CSR/DSR/SRF/EFGHProd/GT123Lite/Legends/SPO/SPU
This looks like 6 race groups to me, big open wheel, FF/CF, little open wheel, all sports racers, all prod, all GT
I would hope the lure of double race weekends would result in at least 150 cars minimum here in the Northeast Division among all these classes

Street Car based weekends
all IT, Touring, SS classes
all Miata classes, SM, SSM
enduros
totalclasses 12 +/-
ITS/A/R/B/C/T1-2-3/SSB/SSC/SSM/SM I think there are other IT classes ?
I don't really know the class breakdowns but obviously there are at least 5 rac groups here and 150 + cars

Will entry fees go up ? For a double race weekend they should, if not to twice a single at least substantially I would imagine. The region does need to at least better than break even by a bit.
But the other side of that coin is reduced expenses for the racers through less travel, lodging, etc etc.

[Bob Devol]

Mike alluded to one of those Detail Devils:

A race weekend entry fee at a Split Double could be, well, double. At least that will be the case for the airheads, who won't be able to make up the entry numbers lost from a regular full-class event. The key to success will be sufficient turnouts for the purpose-built racecar weekends. This may take time to develop and patience may in order.

By the way, a few of the SRF guys will throttle me for saying this, but Prod cars are actually the best race group match for SRF and, at most Regionals, these groups can be combined to open up even more track time for everyone. I've always thought that DSR and CSR combine best with the faster wing cars.

[T.Bardwell]

Somehow this message was deleted. Conspiracy? hmmm... Just kidding. But it sure seems to have disappeared after it was posted. But why would somebody EDIT fresh ideas? Anyway, back to back weekends is an un-workable idea. Here's a better an idea I have come up with over the past couple of years. I have just sent it to the DC BOD.

This deletion of these open wheel classes from MARRS events is outrageous to say the least. The rules do NOT permit you to do this. You cannot RESTRICT nationally recognized classes, nor should you, in favor of support for NON-recognized classes such as SSM.

I think the overcrowding situation calls for restricted regionals too. HALF of the regionals should be restricted to "production base race cars", and the other HALF of the regionals will be restricted to "purpose built race cars". Split the Glen to one group, and VIR to the other, and then alternate years. Draw out of the hat for the remaining dates IN PUBLIC at the November meeting? This will free up track time and paddock space, and the race group MIX would actually provide for BETTER QUALITY TRACK TIME FOR ALL. You MAY even be able to pull off DOUBLE RACES on these revised weekends. This would potentially attract MORE COMPETITORS because the IMPROVED RACE GROUPS. One tow/hotel bill for 5 doubles? =10 MARRS races...OR EVEN 10 LAP QUALIFYING SPRINT RACES ON SATURDAYS, and/or longer races on sunday, the possibilities are endless, this seems SO easy to do. The doorslammers could even do sprints on saturday, and enduros on sunday. Just TRY IT for 1 season for pete sake. After ALL, we do not race with the rally cars, the national cars and solo cars ALL at the same time, at the same track. AT WHAT POINT DO WE SPLIT IT UP? I think NOW is as good a time as any to give this a try. If you HAVE TO race at the GLEN, and it's not on the MARRS schedule for your class this year, pick a date and go with another regional race there. EZ... The proliferation of new classes each year is causing this problem to get worse. FS, F1000, FSSCA, T2,T3, SSM, SM and on and on.... door slammers one weekend, and purpose built race cars the next.

I respectfully suggest we HAVE A REFERENDUM BY THE LICENSED RACERS... not private discussions with cronies about what each of you want or prefer...

I am sure the quality of racing will improve with this idea. The fields will most likely increase in size. WHY? By cutting in half the number of potential weekends one can race at MARRS, the number of potential racers will not be spread so thin. It could be a winner... but you have to TRY IT it to see. A one season PILOT SERIES. OR just a 4 event PILOT SERIES?

The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over, but expecting a different result.

[Michael Rand]

Ummmm, Todd ? Scroll up and look at Post #85. It's yours with this concept in total.
You need to then read through all posts subsequent to yours and see the agreement with your idea.
I have requested of several NEDIV SCCA influential persons that they log on and see what this is about.
Good job Todd.
Fingers crossed, something excellent might come out of this.

[Bob Devol]

I've alerted the guys over on specracer.com to check out this thread.

[Andy Chu]

The problem with splitting up the weekends is finding workers not alone track space. Unless we have and can lure workers away from the fender groups, this won't fly. The 7-9 weekends AND ours would overload the workers. Can we hire them, bribe them? I don't think we will need to have all the top heavy managment but SCCA sanction requires certain amount of staffing at the corners. Or we could just let them choose which to attend. Fender or openwheel.

I do know the EMRA guys do it with very little corner staffing and I haven't seen any one put in danger, relatively.


Here the fender guys won't "give up" a weekend to do doubles. Already tried that here.

Andy

[John Walsh]

Split the Glen to one group, and VIR to the other, and then alternate years. ............. If you HAVE TO race at the GLEN, and it's not on the MARRS schedule for your class this year, pick a date and go with another regional race there. EZ...

Oh, no no no no no no. Before you kiddies stray too far afield, I'll remind you that the Glen and VIR races are not conducted by WDC Region, and aren't involved AT ALL in the proposed grouping changes that have everyone in a tizzy.

Focus....focus....

JW
Watkins Glen double Race Chair....and regular tormentor of Bob Devol

[Alan R Guibord]

Interesting that SCCA Enterprises is selling open wheel cars while the local organizations are trying to limit us. Seems like something is out of balance??

[Stan Clayton]

I've alerted the guys over on specracer.com to check out this thread.

I've alerted the guys over on specwrecker.com to check out this thread.

There, fixed it fer ya...

Just kidding...don't spazz!

Stan

[Bob Devol]

Stan:

@#$%&*()$@#@!!@#$~~#@#%$%$!!!!

There, I've got it out of my system.

But I can't speak for the other Spec Racer guys when they see your post. Especially Walsh. He's trouble with a capital, "holy crap!"

[Stan Clayton]

It's a term of endearment, Bob.

Like 'Stink Pot' = FM.

And 'Weed Whacker' = F5.

And 'Jelly Bean' = SM.

And 'Phart Can' = any IT Honda.

Stan

[Michael Rand]

Andy,
This does not create any new weekends/events, it takes the existing SCCA schedule at Summit in this case and leaves the same number of events it simply alters which classes are racing in each event. It is not 7-9 weekends PLUS "ours", it is the same number of weekends.
Still 6 Regional weekends, all Doubles, 3 racing cars, 3 street car based. No new requirement for workers, same as it was.
Understood about other tracks/regions, John Walsh you are correct, each situation is unique, but as a "solution" to the current uproar, with the side plus of much better paddock, track time, this can be very effective. And of course anything you can do to torment Devol is always a plus.
Bardwell was off base with the Glen/VIR thing, which makes no sense to me at all, sorry Todd.
Andy, I got your voice mail, I will call tomorrow.

[John Nesbitt]

[SIZE=2]This solution, called the split double plan, was discussed this year. Basically, it created a tenth run group, and split the Summit Point MARRS weekends into 'paired' doubles, with 5 groups each weekend. It also offered more track time due to lower inter-session overhead.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=2]I headed a sub-committee of the comp committee to study it. In the end, we recommended not proceeding, for two reasons: a significant portion of the drivers opposed splitting weekends due to the increased tempo of a double and the loss of social contacts; also, there was concern that we would lose a portion of the worker community.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=2]A number of spouses etc. of entrants work the MARRS races. They would likely not work the 'off' weekends. Like it or not, worker count in certain critical functions (eg. F&C) is right on the bubble. They could not lose even 10% of the flaggers, and still run some of the events.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=2]Assuming, as I do, that the Board bumps the issue back to the comp ctte, all options will be on the table, including this one.[/SIZE]

[rickjohnson356]

It has been stated that the GCR prohibits dis-enfranchising any recognized class.

Would it be possible for a driver, or group of drivers, to file a protest against the officials/organizing region in order to provide a test case for the legality or illegality of this issue? Kinda like a class-action suit?

I know that we have one 'restricted regional' event a year in SEDIV that specifically INCLUDES formula cars/SR. So far I haven't heard any grumblings from the other side.

My attempts to bring the issue of 'qualifying within the rules' or go home did not meet with any acknowledgement of the rule. More like, if you pay your entry fee you are guaranteed a race.

I, too, like the idea of making 4-5 races for one set of classes and another set of races for the remaining classes. That way there should be more cars attending for the respective groups. As stated, no additional race weekends, just different groupings.

[EYERACE]

you can race a miata.....but it's not really a racecar. FM/FA/FC etc are true racecars - pure and simple and they will always make an onlooker a little excited at the sight of them. whose pulse races at the sight of a miata?

DC people are making a mistake..........maybe they've been hanging around DC too long and that other world of political garbage is beginning to insidoiusly work its way into them.

you can race a miata but you can't miata a racecar

[Andy Chu]

Mike,

I am all for the "double format" but they oppose it. In fact they got our Labor Day double under one sanction so it only counts as one race. So now people won't come out of the woodwork and go to Labor Day to keep their license. I could tell you what I think about that but that's a different story and I have to bit my tongue!

[John Nesbitt]

Mike,

I am all for the "double format" but they oppose it. In fact they got our Labor Day double under one sanction so it only counts as one race.

Andy,

I hate to rain on your conspiracy theory, but the SM and IT drivers were generally supportive-to-neutral on the double weekend concept. It was Production and Vee drivers who were most opposed.

As for the single sanction for Labor Day, there was general support in the competition committee - licence-keepers cause a disproportionate share of the carnage on that weekend, and most everybody wanted to discourage it.

[Rick Silver]

A combination of 7 single and double events at the premier tracks:
Watkins Glen, Summit Point, New Hampshire, VIR, Mid Ohio, Limerock, and Road Atlanta, as an example.

A maximum of 7 run groups.

The intent is to give FF and FC their own run groups. FA and FV also get their own run group. FM, FSCCA and F1000 run together.
CSR and DSR run together and S2000 and SRF run together unless large enough fields to split them. And a GT run group as well perhaps.

Specific classes with out of date machinery such as FC and FF are split as expert and novice and run together but for their own trophies. This would allow regional drivers to run premier weekends but still have a chance to trophy, this is how it is done in motorcycle racing. Alternatively split the trophies by year, pre 97 for FC.
Overall finish counts for national points toward the runoffs. These are SCCA sanctioned events.

The DC region can continue to hack away but contribute one regional weekend. Perhaps Limerock could contribute one of its two national dates.

This would be a way for the SCCA to show leadership in support of purpose built race cars. It would also cut the number of races and increase purpose built race car numbers. It would also give guys in older equipment or who are new at racing a chance to trophy. At the end of the year, top 5 novices have to move up to expert.

[Andy Chu]

John,
I'm talking to the voice for the SM/IT guys now. They oppose it.

Sorry

As for the double, it was a response to Mike, saying doubles would be more popular. When here, they just got rid of it, for what ever reason.

Andy



I have been infomed I am incorrect. As John said, the SM/IT group is not against the Split weekend format. It was the workers that were against it, I have been told.

[JByers]

Todd,
I think it is a great idea, especially for the budget minded racer. Double the track time in the same amount of time and overhead excluding tires, fuel etc. For those who think it would be a social loss could broaden their experiences by find new friends at new tracks. Or better yet, go to the restricted event, work F&C and see how the supporting half of our events deal with the weekends. I bet some of the workers, officials & marshalls would love to have drivers working side by side with them.

[fv31]

I know that we have one 'restricted regional' event a year in SEDIV that specifically INCLUDES formula cars/SR. So far I haven't heard any grumblings from the other side.

no grumbling should be heard at all.

yes, this is true. a formula car only weekend has been held at savannah for a few years. i think the situation is a bit different as it is not a series, and isn't connected in any way with a series. and it's a one shot, one weekend deal. it's only connection with scca is that they do the sanction.

i dont' have a problem with that. i also know that a lot of the IT guys run restricted regionals coupled with PDX events in our region. usually several times a year. and i don't have a problem with that either.

the bigger issue here is total exclusion of an entire type of car, covering multiple EXISTING classes that conform to the GCR and are legal to run.

i believe the intent of restricted regionals is for special events.....like a race coupled with the PDX events for the tin top guys, or the formula only event at savannah. the restricted regional at the PDX events is actually a great way to do it, as the people who come to run the PDX get to see some real club racing, which will hopefully spur their interest.

what the DC region is trying to do, in my view, is a bastardization of the process. they're basically using a loophole to get rid of classes of cars they don't like. if you're an IT driver and want to run at savannah, there are bunches of scca regional races there each year. you can do one of those instead of the formula weekend. but if you're a scca regional formula car driver and wanna run summit.....you're out of luck.

bill
fv31

[Michael Rand]

Jason Byers has it right, Todds idea has merit.
And to maintain status quo for spouses social interests is not a terribly valid point. Races are run for racers. I understand and enjoy the social aspect as much as anyone, but it simply is not a good enough reason to squelch this idea.
Someone said the workers are against double weekends ? Really ? Why on earth would they be ? They are there for the racing just like the racers. Or is there some other aspect I'm missing ?
And Jason's comment about having licensed drivers assisting on station, specifically Blue Flagging, is spot on as well. If we, the driver group, dedicated even one weekend per season to working an event instead of racing I believe it would a more than positive thing. And by splitting race weekends into different run groups we, the drivers, can do so without impacting our own driving as our class would not be on track. Excellent idea.
I am curious, has anyone checked out this debate on other websites ? Certainly it was a hornets nest on the spec miata site, any comments anywhere else ? FV ? Sports racing ? IT ? Production/GT ?

[Supersmile]

I am curious, has anyone checked out this debate on other websites ? Certainly it was a hornets nest on the spec miata site, any comments anywhere else ? FV ? Sports racing ? IT ? Production/GT ?

There has been a little bit of discussion on Specracer.com (mostly concern for the SRFs to be on the track with the CSR/DSR cars), and a few posts on the FV site.

[John Nesbitt]

Jason Byers has it right, Todds idea has merit.
And to maintain status quo for spouses social interests is not a terribly valid point. Races are run for racers. I understand and enjoy the social aspect as much as anyone, but it simply is not a good enough reason to squelch this idea.
Someone said the workers are against double weekends ? Really ? Why on earth would they be ? They are there for the racing just like the racers. Or is there some other aspect I'm missing ?

You conflated two different concerns.

Some drivers opposed the 'split double' concept because of the social aspects of MARRS weekends. As far as I can tell, a significant fraction of MARRS competitors do only MARRS events, so they have developed social ties around the paddock which have value to them.

Drivers' spouses came up in the context of worker count: a number of spouses work events, and likely would not work the 'other' half of the paired weekends when their own hubby was not driving.

Some workers are there for specific classes and/or groups. I see this when I flag.

The bottom line was that worker counts in some specialities are so low that losing even a small fraction could take us below the minimum.

[TimW]

You conflated two different concerns.

Some drivers opposed the 'split double' concept because of the social aspects of MARRS weekends. As far as I can tell, a significant fraction of MARRS competitors do only MARRS events, so they have developed social ties around the paddock which have value to them.

Drivers' spouses came up in the context of worker count: a number of spouses work events, and likely would not work the 'other' half of the paired weekends when their own hubby was not driving.

Some workers are there for specific classes and/or groups. I see this when I flag.

The bottom line was that worker counts in some specialities are so low that losing even a small fraction could take us below the minimum.

But Mike is adding a new pool of available workers to the mix, namely those who have cars that are in groups not running that weekend. And, if the MARRS championship includes points earned on track with your car as well as a smaller amount of points to work an off weekend, the region has now motivated drivers to participate on weekends that in previous years they would have spent at the track anyway.

I would suspsect this would not work if you were trying to pull national drives into the worker pool, but at the regional level it probably will.

Tim

[John Nesbitt]

And, if the MARRS championship includes points earned on track with your car as well as a smaller amount of points to work an off weekend, the region has now motivated drivers to participate on weekends that in previous years they would have spent at the track anyway.

Now that is a genuinely interesting idea!

The notion of drivers having to work has been floated repeatedly in the various worker fora, but always in the context of imposing a penalty (eg. non-renewal of license) for not working. It would be much better to offer a positive incentive.

[JByers]

John,
Back in the day prior to electronic timing, Waterford Hills had low counts for timing personel, it became mandatory for someone from the drivers crew or the driver themself to participate in T&S. If there was no attendence from any particular team, that driver did not receive a qualifying time or race time which counted towards Sundays feature race. Believe you/me, it worked. Working an event is not below any of us drivers and I believe it would benefit the seasoned or novice driver to become more aware of what it takes to work an event. The plus side would be an increase of comerodity between workers and drivers, which is long overdue.

[theQman23]

Dear fellow racers, Some of you may remember me, maybe not. The name is Quentin Mise, and I am a convert from motorcycle racing to car racing. Back in 03 I built a ground up Formula Vee because it seemed to be the "home built" budget class for "real" race cars and I thoroughly enjoyed the project. Ties in the motorcycle racing scene, (I am the tire guy for the NE corner of the country for two of the four bike tire brands,) has pulled me away but I am now freeing myself up a little bit to return to scca. My return to the car side is marred by the same concerns I had when I bowed out in 04. There are too many individual "clicks" or special interests represented in the paddock. Workers don't agree with what drivers want, drivers of street cars don't like drivers of winged cars. Vice versa. Man oh man, would you guys all remember that this a hobby that costs a lot of money. And people don't want to spend the kind of money that it takes to get involved in racing just to get out of driver's school and find out that a big portion of their excitement is being chewed up and diminshed by "appeals" and "board reviews" and "driver representative disagreements."

One of the ideas mentioned is to split SOME groups during CERTAIN weekends into novice / expert. And yes, we do do that on the bike side. But we also typically have ten or more racers in each and every different class, (sometimes 50-60) nov and ex and there is never a problem getting a class together. We do run experts in the front wave, nov in the rear to save track time of course, but we have enough riders to make it worthwile. In the formula scene at Summit Point, you don't even have enough drivers to keep some classes at all according to some......... and since car racers can't agree on anything already, (tongue in cheek,) I would hate to see the GCR board reviews and committee meetings and appeals that originate from arguments over rules regulating promotion to expert, sandbaggers, etc. etc.

This being said, I would recommend two things from a "newbie" point of view. And before you discount the "newbie" point of view, remember that it's the "newbie" point of view that brings in new racers, and feeds the series, and keeps everyone going. If you don't have time or the patience for the new guys opinion, then you aren't promoting your sport......

Item one is there are too many different formula classes. There are six or seven different categories to choose from. When I purchased my car this week, (lola vintage formula ford,) my head was spinning trying to figure out the differences between a vee, a 1st vee, a FF, a FF that is old enough to be called club Ford, continental, club continental, FM, F1000, F2000, FSCCA some available nationally, some only regionally, and on and on and on and on. Come on already. We formula car lovers are only splitting ourselves up and spreading ourselves too thin. There needs to be three basic classes. A slow/cheap class, a middle class for guys who want to go a little faster, without spending $20,000. And then the winged cars. I fully understand that this means not everyone will get a 1st place trophy, because they had to actually race with 15 other people instead of 3, thereby getting the guaranteed podium. Some of you need to learn that it's better to finish 4th or 9th out of 12 than to win first place out of 3 people. Oh well, at least you'd have a class.

Secondly, the thing to consider is why and how classes like spec Miata and spec RX7 have so many cars? They allow someone to come into the sport, pick a cheap car, and go racing. Just like that. Done deal. In my search I found four cars, two of which had finished in the top five recently, that I could buy for under $8000 turn key. If we formula drivers are going to compete for a bigger slice of the excitement pie within a relatively fixed market size, then we must be able to present a simpler joice. Same speed as a tin top car but in a formula layout for ten g's or less. Faster with more power, but still under $20. And the third choice is speed cost money, how fat is your wallet. If you streamlined the classes and presented a simpler entry, I promise you, more of the RX-7 and miata guys would be in Vees' and FF's. After talking to some of them that are selling their cars to upgrade to IT, or GT, or whatever, the common theme is they think formula cars, or the formula scene, is too complex, or lack cohesiveness and they therefore prefer the fellowship of a simple car, with a larger class of simpler racers and rules.

Just a new guys input, but consider it carefully. I'm the only crazy nut who's buying a formula car in the Mid Atlantic now that all of this arguing is going on.

[JByers]

Quentin,
Well said and we all agree with you, but this subject has been around the block many times in different threads. Your point of newbies coming to this sport is valid here and how it affects car count. If SCCA would have limited the number of formula or sedan cars, I doubt this thread would exist.

My suggestion to you would be a good Club Ford, you can pick up a competetive car for less than 10K. The fields have been growing over the past few years due to the efforts of some. For 20k you can purchase a good FF that will be competetive in Nationals. The FF also is starting to see an increase in entries since the engine issues have been addressed. If you wish to spend 25K, FC is the place to be, you have options to go up to a semi-pro venue which has a higher caliber of driver compared to Regional and some National events.

F-1st, F500, FSCCA, and now F1000 muddy the mix of formula cars and do cause alot of confusion to the newbie looking for a class to run. IMHO these cars should have remained as FS or regional classes. It seems the only option now is to equalize there performance to fit into a general class. But not to worry, I predict that the same thing will happen to the GT/Sedan cars over the next 5 years since there classes are growing too.

Thanks SCCA