F-1000 Rear Diffusers

[S Lathrop]

Thanks for your work Stan.

I think the formula car numbers reflect the lack of an attractive entry level formula car. FV is too old and specialized. But it is still the best entry level class in SCCA.

I say that after having worked with the class for 39 years. The one thing I have found is that when FV drivers change up in formula car classes they are very well prepared to drive faster cars.

FF has become too expensive. There is nothing that can be done to solve that problem in a significant way.

F500 is not very attractive in my estimation. Too much like a go cart. Or I find go carts more interesting for less money.

This has always been the Sports Car Culb of America. Many would like to see the formula cars take a hike and the bug eyes regain prominence. But the Miada is coming to the rescue.

May be the formula car people should go away quietly.

[mtmansl]

Steve,

I think that you hit the nail on the head! There is not an attractive entry level formula car. Very, very few people are able to go out and spend $50,000 for a car, and then have the ability to run that car. I think that if there was a way to keep the initial car cost, and running costs down, you would see a lot of people coming back from other forms of motorsport. TAG has gotten huge in the karting world, and you would be suprised at the amount of ex formula car drivers from the SCCA that are competing there. I feel that you would also have some IT guys jumping the fence as well. Maybe I am just coming to this idea from a selfish angle, but the SCCA has alienated many people who would be on the grid if there was a place for them to compete in a decent car, with an attainable budget.

Matthew Nardo

Thanks for your work Stan.

I think the formula car numbers reflect the lack of an attractive entry level formula car. FV is too old and specialized. But it is still the best entry level class in SCCA.

I say that after having worked with the class for 39 years. The one thing I have found is that when FV drivers change up in formula car classes they are very well prepared to drive faster cars.

FF has become too expensive. There is nothing that can be done to solve that problem in a significant way.

F500 is not very attractive in my estimation. Too much like a go cart. Or I find go carts more interesting for less money.

This has always been the Sports Car Culb of America. Many would like to see the formula cars take a hike and the bug eyes regain prominence. But the Miada is coming to the rescue.

May be the formula car people should go away quietly.

[Paddy O'Brien]

I hope that no one in thier right mind is considering making the F1000 class a beginners class to attract new drivers. As the rules are written these cars are going to be at or near atlantic lap times very soon and will require experienced pilots or else some serious crashes will occur, probably right in front of me! Too many FM and FSSCA drivers are way over thier heads already lets not incourage that sort of driver in this class. Keep the diffusers and aero stuff on but try to keep the costs at 50k or less and make sure the drivers have some serious formula car or shifterkart background before driving these rockets.

[Rennie Clayton]

Paddy,

That reminds me of an experience I had when I was out hunting for a motorcycle. The salesman and I were chatting up about racing, and there was this 18 year old stunta squid buying his first bike. We overheard him say something like "yeah I definitely want the power of an R-1, but better looks, you know?" - we glanced at each other and rolled our eyes.

Being a consummate smart-ass, I said to the salesman, "$50 says that bike comes back on the hook inside of a week." Having been around the block a time or two, the salesman did not take the bait.

Sure enough, 30 minutes later the kid was donning his helmet whilst sitting on his mount, a shiny new GSXR-1000. He pulls out smoothly from the parking space, and inside the dealership the whole sales staff is hurriedly lining up at the window. Stops in the driveway to wait for traffic, revs the motor a little, lets out the clutch, pulls out about 5 feet before the front wheel lurches off the ground while he's turning and BAM! - dumps it right there.

Newbies need not apply. Please, get some proper experience before taking the plunge.


Cheers,
Rennie

[mtmansl]

Paddy,

Where did you get the idea that the class was going to attract inexperienced drivers?

Matthew

I hope that no one in thier right mind is considering making the F1000 class a beginners class to attract new drivers. As the rules are written these cars are going to be at or near atlantic lap times very soon and will require experienced pilots or else some serious crashes will occur, probably right in front of me! Too many FM and FSSCA drivers are way over thier heads already lets not incourage that sort of driver in this class. Keep the diffusers and aero stuff on but try to keep the costs at 50k or less and make sure the drivers have some serious formula car or shifterkart background before driving these rockets.

[Stan Clayton]

Thanks for your work Stan.

I think the formula car numbers reflect the lack of an attractive entry level formula car. FV is too old and specialized. But it is still the best entry level class in SCCA.

I say that after having worked with the class for 39 years. The one thing I have found is that when FV drivers change up in formula car classes they are very well prepared to drive faster cars.

Thank you, Steve. I agree that part of the decline can be traced to the lack of an affordable conventional entry level formula car. The FV doesn't really fit the conventional part of that in my view, but in spite of the unique nature and age of the concept, new cars continue to sell at a steady trickle.

FF has become too expensive. There is nothing that can be done to solve that problem in a significant way.

Unfortunately true...

F500 is not very attractive in my estimation. Too much like a go cart. Or I find go carts more interesting for less money.

I am very concerned about the future of F500, as their numbers have dropped over 25% in just the past 3 years. Also, at least a couple of prominent F500 competitors left the class at the end of the 2006 season.

This has always been the Sports Car Culb of America. Many would like to see the formula cars take a hike and the bug eyes regain prominence. But the Miada is coming to the rescue.

May be the formula car people should go away quietly.

Rumors of the death of open wheel and sports racers are premature...

As one can see on the lead image on the participation thread, the Formula Category has been the most popular category for decades. Furthermore, the combined totals for F/SR classes exceeded those for all production-based classes from 1983 through 2005. Only in 2006 did production cars exceed purpose-built racers in National events.

I am no where near ready to give up!

Stan

[S Lathrop]

I'm not giving up either. By next season I will have one new Zetec FC and a new FV design on the track and 2 more cars under constrution (an FC and a F1000) maybe. The last cars I Built were in '94-'95.
The Zetec will be running in weeks. The FV is on its wheels but needs to be disassembled for painting and final fitting. I swore that when I finished the cars in '94 I was done building cars. I fell off the wagon.

[A36Pilot]

Fellas:

As a newbie, I am confused.

On one hand there has been discussion about the declining participation numbers in Formula racing and how this trend could and should be reversed. On the other, there are at least two forum contributors who are telling people like me to stay away from F1000.

Also, when I placed my order for an F1000 car from Lee Stohr, I did not see any rules prohibiting my entry in this class based on experience. So why are there people discouraging newbies from racing F1000? Unless there is some experience requirement, of which I am not aware, I will stay in F1000. So there!

When I first started investigating the type of Formula class in which to race, I looked at Formula First, FV, FM and FSCCA. Part of what contributed to my decision was that regardless of which class I chose, there would be a sizable investment upfront as well as ongoing costs. If I was going to spend this much money, I wanted to participate in a class for the long term. I did not want to start at a "beginner" class and move up every so often as I gained experience. That is why I chose F1000. I believe this will be an exciting class and one with a great future.

William Gow

[Rennie Clayton]

William,

Your past experience was in shifter karts, correct? Personally, I would not consider you a rank newbie who needs more experience to acclimate themselves to the kind of speed you will see out of an F1000 car. I made the jump straight from shifter karts to Formula Atlantic myself, with no other road racing experience other than schools. Now, I have no idea of your proficiency level, but I do know that these cars are going to be bloody fast, and you have to be comfortable with that to jump right in.

What I would not recommend is for somebody who is completely new to racing, or whose experience is limited to a year or two in a Showroom Stock Honda Civic to step straight into an F1000. It is simply too much car, too soon - learn the ropes first in something that you can make mistakes and the speeds are lower, like a kart or FV or FF.

The point has been made here - and it's a good one - that there is not a good, cheap entry level class. That's what F600 is supposed to be, and it's where we'd recommend a rank newbie to start their foray into Formula cars.


Cheers,
Rennie

[RobLav]

William,

Regardless of your experience (if you have shifter kart, all the better), if you are reasonably confident and acutely aware of your abilities and limitations, then I see no reason why you can't join F1000. My first racing car and experience, at the age of 42, was in a Van Diemen Continental. By the second season, I was running within a second of the fast guys.

As a driver, all I ask for from slower drivers is to watch the mirrors and be predictable.

Rob

[RobLav]

Steve,

If there is anything I can do to help that F1000 progress, let me know.

Rob

[Mark Beckman]

A bit of a worry when the men who formulate a class admit to not knowing why other classes fail and a general decline in the sport.

Anyway, I feel a brick wall has been run into by myself, one that I have met with before and climbed.

Here is my plan;

I will build and market a very cheap race car for the purpose of spec racing.

But there will be no reconised class for the car so what to do?

Easy, the cars will be eligible to run within a class, which one doesnt really matter..

The process?

Because the cars are cheap (not to mention exciting and fun), after some time and with patience from early enthusiastic owners the class will begin to saturate with the spec cars (with encouragement and incentatives, awards etc. from myself). Once saturation has reached a certain level application to the SCCA will be put forward to gain sole class recognition.

So maybe in the near future there will be a class of 1200cc rockets that have longer braking distances, slower cornering speeds and very importantly included drag, all to encourage RACING not follow the leader. (can you spell O-V-E-R-T-A-K-I-N-G?)

Now imagine if you will a person looking at his options of 2 very similar classes, a $50,000 car class with spread fields or a $17,000 car class with close exciting and fun racing (and dont forget the comparisons of ongoing costs as well as cost of accident repairs etc.).

Which one will you choose?

[Stan Clayton]

Formula S awaits you, Mark. Come on over...the more the merrier! Stan

[Mark Beckman]

Steve,

If there is anything I can do to help that F1000 progress, let me know.

Rob

You didnt offer me help. I'm shattered

[A36Pilot]

Hello Rennie:

Thanks for the clarification. I have very limited experience in karting and car racing, so I still consider myself a newbie.

I can understand the veterans' frustrations with rookies. I became proficient at a couple of sports and remember how difficult and trying it was dealing with the newcomers. And with motorsports there is the added issue of personal safety.

For me there really is no choice - F1000 is it. My point is that everyone has/had to start somewhere. We newbies know how slow we are - it is just a matter of comparing our times with those of others during practice and qualifying. Doing simple arithmetic and depending on the length of the course, we can figure out whether we will be lapped during the race. If it happens (and it did in my early days), I follow my racing line and make sure I do not get in anyone's way. And since we are gridded at the back, we are certainly not an issue for the vets at the start. Eventually, regardless of the Formula class, newbies will figure out if they belong.

So I guess what I am saying is that newbies should not be discouraged from trying it out. Like any other racer, if deemed to be unsafe, they should be excluded. And one can tell if a racer is so by watching them in practice and qualifying. If I ever saw such a person on the track with me, I would most certainly file a complaint. And who knows - a newbie just might have natural talent. I have seen this with my own eyes at a racing school - a middle-aged fellow with absolutely no racing experience just clobbered everyone, including the instructors!

William Gow

[Matt Conrad]

William,

Don't get discouraged....

I agree with some that F1000 is not really a beginners class....but I disagree with some that say you can't start there. I, like Rob, started pretty late in the game at age 35...having only made a few drag strip passes prior to road racing anything. My first car was a 1990 VD Formula Continental....not a class some would consider a beginners class.

I did, however, take one step that helped me a great deal, which was to attend the Russell Racing School in Sonoma, CA (Sears Point Raceway). I attended their beginning class, and the advanced class. What the classes did wasn't really to teach me how to race....but to learn the fundamentals of footwork, shifting, hitting the apex, balancing the car, being smooth, etc.....essentially how to drive a race car....not to mention learn to drive on a very technical (and fun) track.

It is hard enough adjusting to race situations without having to learn how to drive the car at the same time. Look at it another way....Golfers don't just go play in a tournament the first time out....they go to the practice range and play many rounds of regular golf before they put themselves in a situation to compete.

If you haven't already, you're going to need to get licensed with SCCA anyway, so I'd recommend attending an open-wheel race school (you'll be able to get your SCCA regional license from most of them) or find some way to be able to get on track without the immediate pressure of having to race.

Good Luck!

Matt Conrad
Phoenix Race Cars, Inc.

[preform resources]

I thought F-500 was the entry level class,costwise etc and they are as fast or faster than the formula fords( many top national drivers,Brian Novak for one have been faster than the f f's on a number of occaisions) so isn't building a NEW $17000 car like reinventing the wheel when the existing entry level class is hurting for participation and you can buy a competitive car for 17k ? I believe the low participation(in many classes) is due to a general malaise about the economy and the cost to operate,not exactly the haves and have nots situation it's just that those with less dispoable income are being very cautious.
Dave Craddock

[Mark Beckman]

Formula S awaits you, Mark. Come on over...the more the merrier! Stan

Yeah well I think they would be better placed in F1000 but I doubt the (uncompetitive) FJ1200 air cooled 5 speed will be accepted.


The class was always going to be a class for newly constructed cars, FC modded entries I believe will be few and you had too much consideration for them thereby allowing big doors to be opened for expensive purpose built cars verified by target prices already of Stohr and Pheonix. These new cars will simply blow away the FC's and they will go away.

You should have seen quite clearly how easy you made it for the top guns of DSR to bring their knowledge and expense to this class.

I will say in favour, thank goodness someone at least had the brains for the 1000lb weight. Now only if we had round section A-arms, single plane rear wings no lower than 70cm, mass production based 2 pot calipers, cast iron discs (including top hats) and 'cough, cough' no diffusers we could have a cheap well attended class that FC and FF owners could still easily subscribe too.....

No problem, just a glitch not the end.

When you have free time maybe some of you could wonder over to the 600 Racing, Legends cars website and get an idea of how cheap racing can be. Try veiwing some of the parts prices and compare to open wheeler prices such as steering racks and maybe even ask why?

Have a look at the success of the Australian Legends series, its of a higher standard than the 600 Racing cars, built for real road racing and is now the support class for the V8 Supercars there http://www.aussieracingcars.com.au/ they are ready to race for $30,000 and get more than 100 entries for each event!

[Mark Beckman]

I thought F-500 was the entry level class,costwise etc and they are as fast or faster than the formula fords( many top national drivers,Brian Novak for one have been faster than the f f's on a number of occaisions) so isn't building a NEW $17000 car like reinventing the wheel when the existing entry level class is hurting for participation and you can buy a competitive car for 17k ? I believe the low participation(in many classes) is due to a general malaise about the economy and the cost to operate,not exactly the haves and have nots situation it's just that those with less dispoable income are being very cautious.
Dave Craddock

Chalk and cheese as I see it Dave, the F500 is a different beast to my concept. (if your comment was directed at me)

From a personal view I cant stand CVT's and want a screaming engine with lots of gears so I can pretend I'm driving an F1!

Anyway, if they had some serious thinking they would throw the CVT's away and fit Honda or Kawasaki 500cc MX engines making 65hp with sequential shifting, I think that would really create a great class.

I dont want to reinvent the wheel, I just want to fit some new tyres.

[mtmansl]

F500 faster than ff1600? At a national level? What was the difference in times at the runoffs? I am not saying it isn't so, but I would like to see some backup for this claim. Here are some practice results from the June Sprints. The fastest f500 is two seconds faster than the next 500, but still 2 seconds slower than the fords.


FFJohn B LaRueMuncieINCitation SnipeRedINDY 2:24.699

FFClifford A JohnsonLeawoodKSPiperRed 2:24.799


F500Mike BrentBethelCTInvader QC-1YellowNENG 2:26.798

F500Clinton McMahanCovingtonGAInvader QC1YellowMGAD 2:28.696

Matthew

I thought F-500 was the entry level class,costwise etc and they are as fast or faster than the formula fords( many top national drivers,Brian Novak for one have been faster than the f f's on a number of occaisions) so isn't building a NEW $17000 car like reinventing the wheel when the existing entry level class is hurting for participation and you can buy a competitive car for 17k ? I believe the low participation(in many classes) is due to a general malaise about the economy and the cost to operate,not exactly the haves and have nots situation it's just that those with less dispoable income are being very cautious.
Dave Craddock

[Stan Clayton]

F500 faster than ff1600? At a national level? What was the difference in times at the runoffs? I am not saying it isn't so, but I would like to see some backup for this claim. Here are some practice results from the June Sprints. The fastest f500 is two seconds faster than the next 500, but still 2 seconds slower than the fords.

-snip-

Matthew

In each of the last 2 Runoffs, Fords have slightly out-qualified 500s, yet in each case 500's had slightly faster race laps. Apples to oranges, I understand, but nonetheless indicating that the two classes have very similar performance potential in their present configurations.

2005 Runoffs F5 pole time 1:29.534; fast race lap [SIZE=1]1:29.360[/SIZE][SIZE=1] [/SIZE]
2005 Runoffs FF pole time 1:28.876; fast race lap 1:29.656

2006 Runoffs F5 pole time 1:45.388; fast race lap 1:44.497
2006 Runoffs FF pole time 1:44.755; fast race lap 1:44.624

Stan

[mtmansl]

+1 Mark,

I think that everyone can agree that there is a decline in formula car entries. I feel that in order for this to be successfull you have to do something different. Yes, the bike engines are a good first step, but you also have to take into consideration the car. The way I see it, the new cars are basically going to be more expensive two liter cars. The conversion of older two liter cars is great, but in the end they are going to be at a weight disadvantage to the new cars. After a while, people will start to question why they are racing in a class where they are automatically at a dissadvantage. What are you trying to do here? Create a cheaper alternative to Atlantic, or a replacement for ff1600/2000? Maybe this is the problem I am having, because I was looking at this class as a new ff2000 with a more affordable, modern, powerplant that had parts availability. Several people here, who want to take part in this class have voiced some suggestions and have been met with disdain and sarcasim. Why? If this class is only going to offer a new motor, but keep the status quo that has failed in the past, what will have been accomplished?


Matthew

Yeah well I think they would be better placed in F1000 but I doubt the (uncompetitive) FJ1200 air cooled 5 speed will be accepted.


The class was always going to be a class for newly constructed cars, FC modded entries I believe will be few and you had too much consideration for them thereby allowing big doors to be opened for expensive purpose built cars verified by target prices already of Stohr and Pheonix. These new cars will simply blow away the FC's and they will go away.

You should have seen quite clearly how easy you made it for the top guns of DSR to bring their knowledge and expense to this class.

I will say in favour, thank goodness someone at least had the brains for the 1000lb weight. Now only if we had round section A-arms, single plane rear wings no lower than 70cm, mass production based 2 pot calipers, cast iron discs (including top hats) and 'cough, cough' no diffusers we could have a cheap well attended class that FC and FF owners could still easily subscribe too.....

No problem, just a glitch not the end.

When you have free time maybe some of you could wonder over to the 600 Racing, Legends cars website and get an idea of how cheap racing can be. Try veiwing some of the parts prices and compare to open wheeler prices such as steering racks and maybe even ask why?

Have a look at the success of the Australian Legends series, its of a higher standard than the 600 Racing cars, built for real road racing and is now the support class for the V8 Supercars there http://www.aussieracingcars.com.au/ they are ready to race for $30,000 and get more than 100 entries for each event!

[Rennie Clayton]

Mark,

Just as F500 is the chalk to your cheese, your concept is equally different from F1000. You've spent a great deal of time berating the expense of racing, and how "if we'd been smart about it, we had the opportunity to create a class that is accessible to the every-man", but can you actually quantify exactly how much your suggested rules modifications will reduce the MSRP of a Stohr F1000?


Cheers,
Rennie

[Mark Beckman]

Mark,

Just as F500 is the chalk to your cheese, your concept is equally different from F1000. You've spent a great deal of time berating the expense of racing, and how "if we'd been smart about it, we had the opportunity to create a class that is accessible to the every-man", but can you actually quantify exactly how much your suggested rules modifications will reduce the MSRP of a Stohr F1000?


Cheers,
Rennie

3 times I have tried to answer and 3 times my computer shut down so I just dont care at this moment.

Do what you want, your the experts I can see by the graphs just how well your all doing too.

[Rennie Clayton]

Mark,

All I asked for was a quantification of how much would drop off the MSRP of a Stohr F1000 if your rules proposals were enacted, and your only apparent response is another ad hominem attack about how we're going to run racing into the ground. And you wonder why the responses you've received both here and the Sports Racer Forum have been cold?


Cheers,
Rennie

[Dave Belz]

3 times I have tried to answer and 3 times my computer shut down so I just dont care at this moment.

Must have been something you said!

William, I wouldn't worry too much about your level of experience. If your log-in is to be taken literally there is a lot of difference between a 'pilot' newbie, and an 18 year old on a GSXR. My first drive of a race car of any type was an S2 at Road America.

The suggestion of attending a formula car school is a good one though, even of only for the sake of 'training' time. After several years of not racing enough I'm feeling way too rusty for my own comfort. If possible, I want to spend some time at Jim Russell of some similar venue before next season starts.

Since you've chosen a Stohr, will you be doing anything at Portland?

Dave

[A36Pilot]

Fellas:

Thanks for the suggestions.

In response to some of your queries:

* Completed the 3-Day course this past August at the Bridgestone Racing Academy in Toronto (highly recommended) and received my SCCA Regional License. We drove FF2000 cars.
* Competed in an F500 race at Sebring in Oct and will do it again from Nov 25 - 26 (renting the car both times). My goal is to put 4 races under my belt ASAP, get my National license and run in a couple of National races in F1000 - hope this does not scare the vets.
* As you can see, I really am a newbie.
* I will probably run my Stohr F1000 car in 2007 at Portland and anywhere else, as long as the drive to the track is reasonable (I have to pick it up anyways, so why not schedule a race there if possible). Will consider entering a series if someone decides to start one up.
* I think Dave was wondering about my log-in name. Yes I am a private pilot.

William Gow

[Mark Beckman]

Mark,

All I asked for was a quantification of how much would drop off the MSRP of a Stohr F1000 if your rules proposals were enacted, and your only apparent response is another ad hominem attack about how we're going to run racing into the ground. And you wonder why the responses you've received both here and the Sports Racer Forum have been cold?


Cheers,
Rennie

From the first post here I was looked down at, fact, some of you treat newbies like crap.

I spent near an hour writing a very long answer to your question and my modem dropped out, I did a second time a little shorter, maybe half hour, my modem dropped out so I wrote a much shorter version and my modem dropped out, excuse me if I am human and get a little pissed off about this.

Ok I'll try again but very short..

I am not privy to the involved cost of a Stohr racing car, nor am I intereted, I am only interested in maintaining a racing formula that is attractive to the other 95%, the ones without $50,000 loose change.

I do know as an example that I can buy round tube anywhere to make A-arms and any competent welder can assemble them. Aero oval section A-arms are not available at any corner store and require a lot more care in assembly and welding. The round arms offer increased drag promoting slipstreaming.

Cast iron brakes including top hats are readily available, cheap, increase brake distances, slow acceleration increasing passing chances. Floaters with alloy top hats are expensive, increase performance and increase.

Diffusers are part of a design package and 10 year old cars wont have the latest thinking as will the Stohr, no diffusers means no modern advantage - home builders cannot compete in this area. Single plane wings no lower than 70cm can not be part of that package and will decrease corner speeds, increase braking distances therefore increase passing chances.

These things can be applied to a FC car and home builts cheaply.

Have a look at Jedi cars in the UK, very popular, very fast F1000-ish class, very cheap and you can even see the shocks.

I asked the DSR mob a couple of questions about flat bottoms and 1200cc 5 speed engines as i was very interested in building a Sports Racer - not a great reception and its public to read. You mention it why? ad hominem attack maybe? Hypocrisy?

No problem.

[Rennie Clayton]

Mark,

Use notepad to compose posts, and then you will not be reliant on your modem to hold out until you have finished your thoughts. This whole "thinking outside the box" concept works with computers too...

Aero section tubing is readily available in the US via mail order and is not difficult to work with. We purchase it and do all of the fitment labour in our fixtures prior to having them welded professionally - a full car set runs us approximately $350. Yes, it is more expensive than round tube, however it's hardly a show stopper. It does make a bit of difference to lap time, although given that I have reams of data not nearly as much as you might suppose. Changing a gurney lip height by 1/4" of an inch at the rear of the car has a larger effect on drag. Yes, I have quantifiable data on this.

Cast iron brakes are not a cost savings, this is being proven day in and day out in Formula Continental. Naturally, racers gravitate towards the best performance solution out there, and that happens to be a prohibitively expensive lightweight iron caliper which has flex issues and in my experience tends to leak. Yes, if you just take any old system off the shelf, you have the capacity to save costs with iron setups, but that's not what any serious racer will do as long as they have another option available that will enhance their performance. In any case, the use of off-the-shelf parts that were not designed for your application can have some hidden pitfalls, especially when you start applying stress to them or put them through duty cycles that they simply weren't designed for. Aluminum calipers are actually a cost saving measure, believe it or not, and you can purchase standardised racing kit very reasonably that will put up with the abuse we dish out without complaining too harshly.

When you say that homebuilders cannot compete in the area of aerodynamics, what exactly does that mean? The reason I ask is that we design and build a good deal of the aero treatment on our Ralt, including bespoke front and rear wing assemblies, modified tunnels and topside bodywork. We are currently producing a CSR conversion for our Ralt, complete with an all-new undertray. Yes, we do all of it in our garage. No, it's not a 16-car garage. Our results speak for themselves, so with due respect, I defy you to prove your point.

I didn't quite follow the grammar with regards to single plane wings, can you explain further?

As you may have gathered by now, I have made a racing career in Formula Atlantic by figuring out how to do it cheaply, and I win doing it. I have never made a habit of blaming the pocketbooks of my competitors, and believe me, when one of your competitors purchases 92 sets of tyres for a single event in their effort to beat you (no, I am not kidding, this really happened to me once), you have every opportunity to grouse. You can either complain about how racing is a sport where only the rich can succeed, or go about figuring out how to beat them anyway. I will chose the latter every time.

I mentioned the discussion on the Sports Racer Forum because it's a patterned communication cycle for you, directly related to the fact that you have attempted on both occasions to bend existing classes to adopt your pet specifications. You are simply the latest in a long line of manufacturers who have attempted to change the rules to maximise the competitiveness of their cars, so you do not hold a monopoly on frustration. Your perspective may be that you are simply trying to make the class cheaper, and have no competitiveness agenda, however the fact remains that you have designed and are building your cars to a completely different paradigm than what the current rules intend - and changing the rules will reign in the performance of existing cars to more closely align with what you produce. This is not an attack on you personally, it is simply a reflection on the outcome of your chosen course of action.


Cheers,
Rennie

[Mark Beckman]

Your last paragraph is simply wrong.

I was a pit baby and I happen to love motorsport dearly and I want it affordable to the common working man again.

This is going nowhere. Good luck to you.

[problemchild]

Thanks for trying Mark. Your ideas are great and probably reflect the feelings of 80% of the people reading them. But the remaining 20% are the ones that are developing the concept and will spend the money taking the class where it ends up.

[Mark Beckman]

Williams F1 driver Nick Heidfeld says overtaking is still difficult The 2005 regulations were aimed at reducing costs and increasing safety. Lap times at the opening race of the year in Melbourne indicated that lap times are in the region of 1.5 seconds slower than they were at the same time last year.

With the 20 racers forced to use the same set of tires for qualifying and the race, it had been suggested that there would be a great deal more passing on track as drivers grapple with varying levels of grip. However, Nick Heidfeld for one believes that it is just as hard to pass this year as it ever has been and the reason is purely aerodynamics.

"You lose downforce when driving too close behind another car," Heidfeld told the WilliamsF1 web site. "Therefore it remains difficult and slipstreaming is virtually impossible" Heidfeld said.

The BMW Williams driver is of course talking of the 'dirty air' put out by each race car from the rear diffuser which in turn creates turbulence for the following car. It is an age old problem and particularly apparent at circuits which have a long fast final turn as the drivers are unable to tuck under the rear wing of their rival for the long main straight and therefore unable to make the pass.

"I suspect there won't be much of a change," Heidfeld continued. "Of course, as a driver I would like to see more overtaking. It would create a better show for the fans, too."

WilliamsF1

[Mark Beckman]

Thanks for trying Mark. Your ideas are great and probably reflect the feelings of 80% of the people reading them. But the remaining 20% are the ones that are developing the concept and will spend the money taking the class where it ends up.

Words from a favorite song of mine;


Well there's a little boy waiting at the counter of the corner shop
He's been waiting down there, waiting half the day, we never ever see him from the top
He gets pushed around, knocked to ground
But he gets to his feet and he says..
What about me,
It isn't fair
I've had enough, now I want my share,
Can't you see, I wanna live
But you just take more than you give...
Well there;s a pretty girl serving at the counter of the corner shop
She been waiting back there, waiting for her dreams, her dreams walk in and out, they never stop
Well she's not too proud, to cry out loud
She runs to the street and she screams
What about me, It isn't fair
I've had enough, now I want my share,
Can't you see, I wanna live
But you just take more than you give...

So take a step back and see the little people
They may be little but they're the ones that make the big people big
So listen, as the whisper
"What about me?"

Now i'm standing on the corner, all the worlds gone home,
Nobody's changed, Nobody's been saved,
And i'm feeling cold and alone
I guess I'm lucky, I smile a lot
But sometimes I wish for more than I've got
What about me,
It isn't fair
I've had enough, now I want my share,
Can't you see, I wanna live
But you just take more
What about me, It isn't fair
I've had enough, now I want my share,
Can't you see, I wanna live
But you just take more
You just take more
You just take more than you give
What about me...

(Shannon Noll - "What about me")

[preform resources]

Brian Novak finished first overall in nationals at indy and grattan,in the combined f-f f-5 f-v race groupings,that is how I based my opinion,he unfortunately wasn't at elkhart this year.
Dave Craddock

[Matt Conrad]

Maybe it is time to revisit the floor issue as I notice somehow the rules changed a bit since we last debated this issue. Here's my take...please let me know if you agree or disagree:

First. The floor as it relates to the bodywork. I'll get to the diffuser later, but it seems as if the rule in the GCR didn't change.

I was under the assumption that there was going to be a restriction to keep anyone from running a huge wide floor sticking out from the bodywork. In fact, I thought it was going to limit the floor from sticking out more than 25cm (~1 inch) from any point on the bodywork. But, here's what's in the GCR:

"The maximum permitted width of the bodywork is 150cm. The width of the entire lower surface of the car between the rear of the front tires and the front of the rear tires shall not exceed the maximum width of the bodywork by more than 50mm and shall not exceed 150cm"

This seems to hardly limit the floor at all...here's an example.....the bodywork on a car is 130cm wide between the rear of the front tires and the front of the rear tires. The floor (based on the rule above) could then be as much as 135cm wide for it's entire length between the rear of the front tires and the front of the rear tires, as long as it doesn't exceed the 50mm past the widest point of the bodywork.....sorry for the crude sketch, but like this:



If this is the rule, then I don't like it and we discussed not allowing this exact example. I believe allowing that much floor sticking out is just plain dangerous, not to mention the can of aero worms it opens up.

Feedback please.............

Also..why can't I get the sketch smaller....I tried scaling it down, re-sizing it, etc. and it comes in the same size no matter what I do.

Matt

[carnut169]

Don't you think that by sticking the sides out to max width you are somewhat nullifying the benifits of the larger floor?

Your drawing describes most of the current FC cars- but just not to that extreme.

[Rennie Clayton]

Funny, I was just about to post the same pictures of Sean's car.

I can't spot any remarkable difference between the floor in Matt's drawing and the undertray on Sean's car, other than being in front of the sidepod as opposed to aft. Is that what you object to, Matt?


Cheers,
Rennie

[Dave Gomberg]

It is exactly because we did not want to make any existing FCs (used in F1000 conversions) illegal that the wording was changed. The rule allows the bottom of the side pod to extend up to one inch beyond the widest part of the side pod bodywork (on each side).

This change was announced on November 1 in post #3 of this thread http://www.apexspeed.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19754

Dave

[R. Pare]

Matt:

I think most of us that were not in on the actual discussions of the rule thought that they were going for a "shadow + 1" " rule, and the wording of the rule as it sits can be interpreted that way at first glance. This is not what they wanted, it seems, but the wording could be reworked a bit to make it more clear - eventually someone will challenge the rule, or as personnell change over time, the understanding of the meaning can change with them.

Either way, regardless of which meaning is desired, any car can be built as you described and be perfectly legal - you just need to use your imagination a bit!

If the top skin of an undertray is above the floorpan/bellypan, it is in actual fact "bodywork" according to the glossary definition, and will automatically confer width legality to the "underside", which is the only physical portion of the undertray that this rule addresses.

Simple, eh?

[Matt Conrad]

Ren,

Yes....I'm mostly concerned about the area in front of the sidepod....mainly from a safety standpoint. It just seems like a wheel could easily climb up on top of a protruding floor like that...or get punctured very easily as well....

Dave,

I understand the reasoning....My 1990 VD had minimal sidepods and an aluminum floor which was 4"-6" wider than the car....but that additional floor wasn't sticking a foot in front of the sidepod either....which it could on a design with the sidepods way back towards the rear tires.

Not a serious issue....unless someone gets hurt.....but pictures of a certain car from PRI also showed another problem with the floor jutting way out....people tripping or stepping on it....I noticed "Safety Tape" on the carpet around the front edge of the floor of the car where it protrudes fairly significantly.

Matt Conrad
Phoenix Race Cars, Inc.