F-1000 Rear Diffusers

[Rennie Clayton]

Dave,

Feel free to quote away... ;-)


Rob,

Thanks; just calling it like I see it.


Matthew & Ex-Racer,

Both of you seem to feel pretty strongly that a diffusor is simply not needed for a car with this horsepower level. Serendipitously, there is nothing in the rules that mandates a diffusor, so you are quite welcome to build your cars without one. Please keep in mind that this class was conceived as a "cost effective" class, not a "rock bottom cost" class. If you are looking for restricted rules that outlaw diffusors and wings with reduced power, then you really need to take another look at RobLav's post about F600 and the three-pronged approach that F1000 happens to be the middle of.

[flame]
Matthew, your knickers are all twisted over some perceived injury - man up and re-read the posts at face value. Nobody was being insulting or arrogant towards you - the 6 posts comment is in deference to the fact that we don't know you, your history, your involvement in the sport, or anything at all really. The guy informed you that this concept has three different paths, one of which involved 600cc engines for tube frame cars with no aero, and happens to mention his opinion that this F600 concept sounds like what you're suggesting, and you jumped down his throat for being a smarta$$. Get a grip.
[/flame]


Cheers,
Rennie

[Mark Beckman]

Just out of curiosity, what kind of hp is considered low hp to not require a diffuser. I've seen that menioned a couple times in this thread.

Thanks.

Ken

Aeros start to take effect 50mph up. Too many factors with various classes to give a definate answer, for example some shifter karts with only 50hp use wings.

[Mark Beckman]

Mark,

I knew you would have an answer! And yet, it doesn't really answer my question directly about why that is less of a pain, because you've casually ignored the fact that any competent designer is going to carefully design a body contour crafted around clever mechanical component packaging requiring specialized mounting hardware and aerodynamic design in order to overcome that big parachute back there. What I'm saying is that your suggestion is not the free lunch you represent it to be.

Speaking of "restrictor plates", as an aside to the greater F1000 community concerned about engine parity: why not use a fuel restrictor instead of an air restrictor to limit horsepower? Think about it...

As you are the late arrival traipsing into the party with a few "friendly" suggestions for how to make improvements to the class, I submit to you that it's incumbent upon you to convince the establishment, not the other way 'round. As with any other situation in life, if your intention is to stray significantly from an established vision, then you are going to have to make a damned better case than "because I think it will improve things." Your cars will already have a sizeable price point advantage over other manufacturers, however, so I have to wonder: as these suggestions will not make one whit of difference to the selling price of your cars, and as such the joys and agonies of automobile racing will thus supposedly be rendered available to the great masses at reasonably low cost, what motivation do you have for seeing this rule change enacted other than to hobble the performance of other cars in order to make yours more competitive?

Did your knowledgeable comment also extend to:

Metal fabrication
Composite fabrication
Mechanical drafting and design
Materials engineering
Rubber chemistry
Lubricants chemistry
Fuel chemistry
Thermodynamics
Meteorology
Damping theory
Physics theory
Suspension geometry
Internal combustion engine design
Electronics and computer programming
Physical fitness
Mental preparation

Or aerodynamics just that one facet of fast race cars which you have decided to focus upon?


Cheers,
Rennie

Oh but I knew you would have an answer before you knew I would.

Hobble others? no trying to stop continuous development and create a lower buck class. To quote Matt from Pheonix cars "35,000 to 55,000 depending on rules". I'm sure part of that price depends on diffusers or not and the extra work and design required to meet the requirement. (nothing meant to you Matt, just example)

Fuel restrictors? did you consider the holed pistons from lean out for those who cant afford expensive mapping programs? of course you didnt, also pointing out that efi as being a must raising the cost for competitor over available carby motors.

My case from the established vision was made quite clear, I want to increase slipstreaming and lower cost its really not complicated.

I would comment on half of the other items but the fact is I dont have the time, I'm busy building cars, what are you doing?

[RobLav]

During the development of the F1000 rules, we went through very many sets of threads here on ApexSpeed trying to hammer out a reasonable concensus. Some of those threads became rather "difficult" (and Rennie and I did not always agree), but this is by far the worst one I've experienced in my years here.

There comes a point when it's just not worth trying to explain things to people who haven't a clue and are not interested in learning what that clue is.

So, with due arrogance, I bid "Adieu" and, again, take up your issues with the CRB.

[Dave Belz]

...the knowledgeable will always have an advantage, and wallets can be overcome.

Just had to quote that again! I think I'll stick with my current signature for the time being, but I may very well blow your line up and hang it inside of my garage or my trailor - or both... Now, if I could just overcome my own...

Dave

[Mark Beckman]

During the development of the F1000 rules, we went through very many sets of threads here on ApexSpeed trying to hammer out a reasonable concensus. Some of those threads became rather "difficult" (and Rennie and I did not always agree), but this is by far the worst one I've experienced in my years here.

There comes a point when it's just not worth trying to explain things to people who haven't a clue and are not interested in learning what that clue is.

So, with due arrogance, I bid "Adieu" and, again, take up your issues with the CRB.

Thats it, your NOT coming to my Christmas party.

[Mark Beckman]

[quote=RobLav;119552]During the development of the F1000 rules, we went through very many sets of threads here on ApexSpeed trying to hammer out a reasonable concensus. Some of those threads became rather "difficult" (and Rennie and I did not always agree), but this is by far the worst one I've experienced in my years here.
quote]

Are you joking? I just read the whole lot again and the only problem I see is you and your beligerant attitude towards 'newbies' who offer an opinion. Maybe Rennie's posts arent very inviting either but at least he put up some opinions.

Thats it your not coming to my Birthday either (and we have strippers too).

Rennie, how much you got in your Ralt? I hear its a bit, I want to balance that against your "wallets can be beaten" comment.

[Rennie Clayton]

Mark,

Disappointingly, you've crossed the threshhold of resorting to ad-hominem attacks, and I'm not going to indulge you there. Please respond to the factual elements of my posts germane to the topic at hand instead of trying to turn this thread into a referendum on what I think about, what I do for a living, and what I spend on my racing hobby.


Cheers,
Rennie

[mtmansl]

Rennie,

Judging by your statement, that sounds like a pretty legitimate question to me. I don't think that Mark has crossed any threshold, because no matter which way you paint things, this is suppossed to be a low cost class. If this is a class where people with a lot of expendable cash are the only ones who can play, it will never take off. I do think that the class has to have a professional look, and would not want it to be any type of "grapes of wrath" racing class. I really do like the concept of the class, and I think the others that have made suggestions share this feeling as well. Rob, and yourself seem to have gotten very pissy at a few suggestions on ways to make things more cost effective, and you keep saying "go make the 600cc, no wing class happen yourselves." Why, because we questioned the validity of a diffuser?

Matthew

[Rennie Clayton]

Matthew,

You and I are talking at cross purposes. I have no issues with you or Mark questioning the validity of diffusors - again, if you are unclear on this, go back and re-read my posts. Historically, this class was conceived as a place for FC competitors to convert their cars to motorcycle power - i.e., to make their racing at the FC performance level more cost-effective; it was not conceived as an absolute rock bottom cost class. This is not my painting of the subject, this is a factual representation of the original direction. "Founders" and original F1000 Rules Committee folks that are lurking here are encouraged to correct me or back me up here, publicly.

The threshhold that Mark has crossed was replying to my argument by attacking me rather than my argument itself. Ad hominem. Specifically, "i'm too busy to reply to half of this, i'm busy building race cars, what are you doing?", "did you consider holed pistons from lean out, of course you didn't", and "how much do you have in your Ralt" - none of which have anything at all to do with diffusors in F1000, and are designed to put me on the defensive by shifting the focus to me instead of the subject at hand. Once more, this thread is not a referendum on what I do, what I'm thinking about, or what I spend on my racing hobby.

In any case, as the original intent of the class was align its performance level with FC, I believe that eliminating diffusors goes counter to class philosophy, and should not be enacted. If the central thrust of your argument is that these "fragile" bits can be easily broken off with a minor bump, wouldn't you then logically suggest to remove the wings from the front and rear of the car as well? Wings are in just as precarious a position, if not moreso than a diffusor. In that case, we have essentially a FF1600 with a 1 litre bike motor. If I'm not mistaken, the F600 engine formula concepts floating around include the idea of 600cc unrestricted, 1000cc restricted. If this 1 litre, low power, no aero scenario is starting to sound familiar, then you'll realize why we suggest the F600 class direction as being more applicable to what you're suggesting.

Matthew, our cries of "this sounds like F600" is not a shove-aside wherein you're on your own - as we've already stated on numerous occasions, this is already part of the plan. If you want to share in the responsibility for shaping the direction of these classes, all you have to do is participate. As with any other endeavour in life, it behooves you to learn the lay of the land, read up on discussions to date and familiarize yourself with the general state of affairs before jumping into the deep end.


Cheers,
Rennie

[Lincspeed]

Yeah Rennie, glad to see your hair's still on fire

BTW, what's up with our project(s)?

Clark

[malibu80]

just out of curiosity does anyone know the arrival date of the "official and published final rules" ? i hope they come soon so all the BS and arguing can give way to productive car building and racing.

[Dave Belz]

Mathew,
A threshold has most certainly been crossed, which is precisely the reason that you and Mark are receiving the type of reception here that you are.

Rob's made his comment regarding the tone of previous threads because in spite of strong differences of opinion on a number of topics, there was NEVER any name calling, personal attacks or questions, or blacklisting from future social events. Even the outright king of exclamation marks in those threads has been civil (even 'warm' and 'enthusiastic'?) since the notice regarding the final draft of the F1000 spec appeared on this forum. It is accepted forum wide that posts and posters will stay closely on topic, whether it be technical or political and not resort to name calling or attacking someone because their shoes are ugly or their hair looks bad. The last page and a half of this thread is redundant and unnecessary.

Diffusers are a part of the F1000 spec as currently written. The "Final Draft" will appear in Fastrack any day now. If you feel strongly enough that they not should be there, start a letter writing campaign to the CRB and see if they can be removed in the future. I doubt that there will be sufficient support.

Mark; you, as a car builder, should recognize a completed specification when you see (or hear about) it. Unless you're from a software background - in which case I completely understand... You may never have actually seen a completed product spec. That's sarcasm, I come from a software background. If you'd rather not deal with diffusers, there are probably a couple of people around this forum who might just be happy to reply to outsourcing requests when your car is ready.

As far as diffusers themselves go (having driven S2, FV, FF/CFF, and now FC), I happen to like mine. I try to keep my costs in control by staying on the track as much as possible. Recent personal experience has shown me that just because I don't damage it by going off track that the risk to it is over (tow truck driver ). That gives me one more reason to keep it on track in the future. My attitude and personal satisfaction are also greatly improved if I keep my helmet on until after I leave the track.

PLEASE try to keep it on topic. It's one of the things that keeps this forum informative and enjoyable. If you want to discuss my investment and budget, I'll be happy to embarrass myself in a different thread.

Dave

[Mark Beckman]

j i hope they come soon so all the BS and arguing can give way to productive car building and racing.

Malibu, (and RobLav), Please refer to any dictionary as to the meaning of the word "forum".

Rennie say what you will but the fact is the front gridders of F1000 will be $50,000+ lighter, I personally think there was a chance to avoid this and it wasnt taken.

(Who knows maybe SCCA Enterprises dont want their spec cars looking so expensive).

Asking about how much you have in your racing is relevant to what you think is low cost if your making decisions on others behalfs. If you have a $100,000 money pit race car then say $20,000 may seem to be chicken feed. I dont care about your personal life at all.

$20,000 is a lot of money to me by the way, maybe you should all look at statistical averages of wage earners - but then again maybe you dont want "those" people competing..

Are you aware of the downfall in competitor numbers once a cars value passes $15,000?
Are you aware that Vintage Racing is on the increase and did you stop to think why?

Anyway back to work, got to get the uprights finished and those scrub radiuses right, hmm lets see I'll choose these 4 from the list today....

Metal fabrication
Composite fabrication
Mechanical drafting and design
Materials engineering
Rubber chemistry
Lubricants chemistry
Fuel chemistry
Thermodynamics
Meteorology
Damping theory
Physics theory
Suspension geometry
Internal combustion engine design
Electronics and computer programming
Physical fitness
Mental preparation

[Mark Beckman]

Mathew,
A threshold has most certainly been crossed, which is precisely the reason that you and Mark are receiving the type of reception here that you are.


Dave

Dave, thank you for your time.

A forum is a place for people to debate their ideas but in the real world of internet forums today what tends to happen is that clicky groups form and newcomers are required to prove who they are to get respect rather than have respect offered to them. This is not uncommon to many forums.

My first post here was replied to by someone demanding I give personal information and generally I was nobody because I didnt have a website or personal information to hand.
I dont know the threshold you refer to, I will continue to offer my opinion and if people such as RobLav continue to be less than diplomatic in their replies then the thread will degenerate and I guess the old school will continue to be biased as to the cause.

If you need examples, and you do, Rennie posted something towards me RobLav wasted a post of support then a couple of posts later RobLav offensively states that we dont have a clue - so who is at fault Dave? You tell me I cross the threshold but you dont say zilch to RobLav for his inapropriate "you dont have a clue" comments that were posted first?

Anyway, your support to Rennie for his "the knowledgeable will always have an advantage, and wallets can be overcome" wasnt exactly on topic either was it? but it could be construed as siding.

Slipstreaming overtaking in racing has substantially died since the development of diffusers, they have no place on a production car and for these reasons I dont believe they have a place in motor racing.

[Rennie Clayton]

Mark,

You really should go back and read some of the existing threads about F1000. The fact that front running F1000 cars are going to run to $50,000 plus is not news to me - I have been one of the people consistently warning from the beginning that this class is going to be extremely quick and fairly spendy. Eliminating diffusors from the spec and mandating flat bottoms to the rear of the car with a 20 X 50cm vertical plate at the rear is not going to magically drop $30k off the price of the cars. If you want to increase slipstreaming, I'm sure there would be plenty of ways to do it that don't look as completely ridiculous as having a flat plate hanging off the back of the car. That concern on my part for appearance will probably elicit some derisive remarks from you, but let's face it - the appearance of the car is a significant contributor to initial attraction to the class. People don't like driving ugly cars, and if they have a more attractive alternative, they'll usually take it given a reasonable cost disparity.

You are, and always have been in my experience, very quick to slap the elitist tag on anybody who has the nerve to spend more than $xx,xxx on their racing hobby. Yes, I race in Atlantic. Whether I'm a trust fund baby that rolls to the track in an 18 wheel rig, prepped spare car, multiple spare engines, paid professional engineer and crew, or one of "those" people you refer to who has to take one or two years off from racing in order to scrape just enough money together to get to the track in a 24' tag trailer pulled by a used truck, no spare parts of consequence, with Mom as chief mechanic, and Dad as engineer, has absolutely no bearing whatsoever on whether or not wallets can be overcome. If I'm the former, then any time some upstart kid on a shoestring beats me, the point is proven. If I'm the latter, then any time I can roll to the track and beat the former, the point is proven.

Are you aware of the downfall in competitor numbers once a cars value passes $15,000?
Are you aware that Vintage Racing is on the increase and did you stop to think why?

By this reasoning, F500 should be the largest formula class, and FA should be the smallest. Anyone care to post the actual participation numbers? Yes I'm aware that Vintage Racing is on the increase - are you suggesting that this phenomenon is because all Vintage Racing is done with cars valued under $15k?


Cheers,
Rennie

[Matt Conrad]

I'm really at a loss here for a few reasons....

1. The last time I checked this class is for converted FC's and purpose-built cars. FC's use a rear diffuser, so it seems logical that the purpose-built cars would as well.
2. You can pick up the phone and call Mike Beauchamp and he'll build you a nice glass rear diffuser for $525...if that's causing this class to be too expensive for some.....I suggest golf.

Matt Conrad
Phoenix Race Cars, Inc.

[VehDyn]

Where is this low cost vintage racing? My wife wanted me to get into vintage racing. She loved strolling the paddock and looking at the cool old racecars. Of course, her only vintage experience is several vacations spent at the Monterey Historic races. Those cute old cars she liked were Porsches, Lolas, etc. I wish they were cheap. I'd buy two 917s. If you guys can keep an eye out for one of those for 15 or under let me know. Hell, I'll even pop for 25 for one in great shape.

[Mike B]

To the guys that are just now showing up to the party: for the umpteenth time, please go back and read EVERYTHING that has been discussed about this class: the initial conception, the philosophy, the evolution of the rules, and the final revision of the rules (which HAS been published, months ago.)
It's not that I, or Rob, or Rennie don't have any respect for you because you just started posting, it's because you haven't done the due diligence of understanding the aforementioned history and are now relying on the established members that have been living the F1000 development for the last year to fill you in on why we did this or outlawed that or kept a single weight, single displacement, and DIDN'T want an open-wheel DSR.
Read it all, and there is a lot of it, and I think you'll better understand how we arrived where we are now and why we're heading in the direction we are heading. You might even understand Rob's comment about the 3-tiered bike-engine formula and other comments that seem offensive to you.

[Stan Clayton]

By this reasoning, F500 should be the largest formula class, and FA should be the smallest. Anyone care to post the actual participation numbers?

Updated through 2006...

[mtmansl]

I think that everyone needs just to relax a little.

A few people (myself included) made some suggestions on a diffuser. No, a diffuser by itself is not going to make a huge difference in lowering costs. I have been away from the SCCA for several years racing karts, and motorcycles(and there are others just like me) for the simple reason that costs of racing in the SCCA were getting out of control. There were new classes forming like FSCCA, which could have been winners but they changed the origional concept and now you have a car they are selling for $50,000. Several other classes have been attempted, but they all seem to follow the same direction, and the result is you show up for a national with your expensive equipment and are racing against maybe 4 or 5 cars!!!! I really love the idea of F1000, and am by no means trying to come off negative about the work you guys have done. I really want this class to succede, and I would love to come back to race a propper race car, with decent power, that is somewhat affordable, and large fields. At the same time, I know that racing will never really be affordable. I just think that if car prices start creeping up into the $50,000 territory, fields will never grow, and the series will die before it gets the chance to take off. Using F500, and F600 as an alternative really doesn't work for me. I would rather do what I am doing now, and I believe that I am not the only one who feels this way. I will admit that I have not gone over all the rules(tire rules for example), and I should probably do that before I make any other suggestions. I did get a little dis- jointed at what I believed to be smartass comments aimed at me, and Mark(who I think has made some valuable comments on the subject). If I have misunderstood the tone of the rebutals to our suggestions, I apologise. I know that many here have put a lot of effort getting this thing going, and maybe I seem somewhat of a backseat driver criticising your work. I am here to say that I am not, and I don't believe that some of the other people here who have taken some heat are either. I hope that everyone will just lighten up a little, and maybe this forum will have a more positive tone!

Matthew

[Purple Frog]

What is obvious to me is that as soon as I started racing FC it started sliding downhill.

The correlation is obvious... you all knew it...

It's all my fault.

[Matt Conrad]

Very interesting Stan....

I think there's no question where the overall trend has been headed. Even though FA shows an upward movement for the last few years I believe that can be attributed to the addition of "non-FA, FA's (Zetecs, FSCCA, Pro FM's).

When you look at this and then see what's going on with the MARRS deal, it makes me nervous......

Matt Conrad
Phoenix Race Cars, Inc.

[S Lathrop]

Stan;

Your graph is good information. Could you add a line for either total National entries or the percentage of national entries represented by the formula cars.

I would be interested to see if national racing is following the same trend line or are formula cars declining in popularity. Is the competition from other formula car series, such as Barber and pro Mazada, accounting for some of the decline? What is the participation for SCCA pro department sanctioned fromula car races.

I am curious as to the over all market for formula cars.

[Matt Conrad]

I believe open-wheeled racing is in decline for a ton of reasons....and it starts at the top as the IRL and Champ Car continue to be seperate. I do see some light at the end of the tunnel as there's some thawing of the ice between the two sanctioning bodies, but I think any consolidation is years away. I'm also of the belief that strong US Pro Series' feed club racing and this graph seems to bear that out....

1. FA. The Zetec, FSCCA, and now the non-016 FA's, are filtering down from former Pro Series racers and into the SCCA mix and FA numbers are up.
2. FM. The new Pro Car forced all of the old cars into the club racing ranks....I saw some of these cars for sale for $15K!....and the FM numbers are up.
3. FC. The Pro Series has been "fractured" to a degree (different series', pinto vs. Zetec, etc.) and the Pro Series has not been as strong since they lost TV covergage several years ago....remember when the pro series suppurted the Indy car series?....and the numbers continue to decline. With some recent rule changes, this could change?
4. FF. No Pro Series, 30 year old motors, no wings (the younger guys coming up want them)....a continued decline.

Not to mention that the "ladder" up the open-wheel ranks has become a maze....and when guys like Montoya, Almendinger and Hornish are driving SMASHCAR boxes....it sends a loud message down through the racing ranks.

Back to work.....

Matt Conrad
Phoenix Race Cars, Inc.

[Greg Mercurio]

Stan: Could you post the participation graph in the FF section please?

Thanks

[Stan Clayton]

Steve, I'll work on that added info you'd like to see.

Greg, feel free to cross-post the image on the FF section. Just right-click and copy the location, then post it where you'd like to see it over there.

Stan

[Rennie Clayton]

Greg,

If you'd like to get a fuller picture of historical participation numbers, maybe Stan can post the numbers back to 1983.


Cheers,
Rennie

[Stan Clayton]

Here's a quickie look-see. I have the data for 85-95 and will fill in sometime soon, but here ya go...



Edited to add Spec Racer data. Stan

[S Lathrop]

Thanks Stan.

Interesting that FV is holding up the best.

Otherwise it is a depressing picture.

[Mark Beckman]

FV costs havent changed substantially, the others have but particually FF has increased to a joke (based on being a "starter" class).

[R. Pare]

Actually, the cost of entry into FV with a new car has increased about the same proportionally as just about every other class - 20 years ago a brand new FV with engine was in the $6-8000 neighborhood ( maybe actually less - Steve knows the prices better than I), and is now about 2.5 times that easily - last I heard a new FV roller was about $16K, and an engine $6-7K.

The major difference is that it is still percieved as an inexpensive, "simple" class with great racing, but without the threat that new technology will obsolete your car overnight.

The reduction in FC numbers I think is directly related to 3 things:

1 - Entry cost. New cars are more than what the majority can afford.

2 - Lack of direct crossover from a Pro series. The changing of Pro equipment spec killed the possibility of 1-year old but still good cars filtering down to the Club members. It also killed the natural progression of the new young guns who used to get a car to run for a year in the Club to get their feet wet, and then do a few Pro races with the same car to get a taste of the sharper end of the stick. Now they just go directly to the Pro classes from karting, etc., and skip the Club.

3- Proliferation of too many directly competing classes. Just what in gods name was Denver thinking about when it kept bringing and/or sanctioning classes that directly competed with their traditional classes and manufacturer base is beyond me - other than someone was making money from it.

[Stan Clayton]

I've updated the chart above to show Spec Racer data. In case anyone is wondering, 1985 was the first year SR (and F5) ran Nationals. FF peaked at about 2400 entries in the mid to late 70's, but had already lost substantial entries before the SR came along. Stan

[Stan Clayton]

Stan;

Your graph is good information. Could you add a line for either total National entries or the percentage of national entries represented by the formula cars.

I would be interested to see if national racing is following the same trend line or are formula cars declining in popularity. Is the competition from other formula car series, such as Barber and pro Mazada, accounting for some of the decline? What is the participation for SCCA pro department sanctioned fromula car races.

I am curious as to the over all market for formula cars.

Steve,

I am working on a chart which will show total annual entries, plus entries by category. I hope to have this chart complete and posted later today. What I can tell you is that total Nationals entries have changed very little over the time frame for which I have data (fairly complete back to '83...fragmented before that), although category ratios have dramatically switched over that time frame!

As for the impact of individual "other formula car series", I don't have any firm data. OTOH, I know that FSCCA has added about 50 entries per year to FA totals for the past couple of years. Also, IIRC about 60 percent of FSCCA buyers self identify as former FC drivers, but how many switched directly I don't know. Certainly some did, but it is not a zero sum exchange.

Stan

[R. Pare]

Stan:

Question on a different subject that probably no one has thought about in a long time:

At one time there was a requirement for formula cars to be able to be lifted by their main hoop - hence the cut out on the DB1 at intake at the top that allows access to the bar.

When did that change? I've noticed that these new cars with the high centered intakes do not have allowance for that, nor actually any easily recognizable allowance for flat towing (as required for all cars).

[Matt Conrad]

Richard,

I don't know when or if it changed, but here's what it says now....

GCR 17.31 Towing Eyes. "All cars without an exposed roll bar shall have a towing eye or strap, front and rear that does not dangerously protrude from the bodywork when the car is racing, to be used for flat-towing or hauling the vehicle. A removable towing eye carried inside the car is not acceptable, except in formula cars or sports racers."

There's more, but I think this covers it.

Matt Conrad
Phoenix Race Cars, Inc.

[Mark Beckman]

Actually, the cost of entry into FV with a new car has increased about the same proportionally as just about every other class - 20 years ago a brand new FV with engine was in the $6-8000 neighborhood ( maybe actually less - Steve knows the prices better than I), and is now about 2.5 times that easily - last I heard a new FV roller was about $16K, and an engine $6-7K.

The major difference is that it is still percieved as an inexpensive, "simple" class with great racing, but without the threat that new technology will obsolete your car overnight.

it.

I doubt the increase is a greater proportion of new cars.

[Mark Beckman]

Where is this low cost vintage racing? My wife wanted me to get into vintage racing. She loved strolling the paddock and looking at the cool old racecars. Of course, her only vintage experience is several vacations spent at the Monterey Historic races. Those cute old cars she liked were Porsches, Lolas, etc. I wish they were cheap. I'd buy two 917s. If you guys can keep an eye out for one of those for 15 or under let me know. Hell, I'll even pop for 25 for one in great shape.

/

Everyones a comedian.

You dont know what a Dodge, Chev, Ford etc. is??

Why theres even a Vintage FFord forum here.

Remove the blinkers and dont take your wife to race meets, women smell money a mile away.

[VehDyn]

Yes, Mark, it was a joke. Kind of....

You are an interesting guy. I have read your posts on both this and the DSR forum. It sure will be interesting to see that car of yours. When did you say it would be ready? Any pictures like many of the other manufacturers have shown here of something in progress? Everything confidential?

"Women smell money a mile away" I bet the women love you with that attitude.

Ken

[Mark Beckman]

Yes, Mark, it was a joke. Kind of....

You are an interesting guy. I have read your posts on both this and the DSR forum. It sure will be interesting to see that car of yours. When did you say it would be ready? Any pictures like many of the other manufacturers have shown here of something in progress? Everything confidential?

"Women smell money a mile away" I bet the women love you with that attitude.

Ken

I hope to be selling mid-late 2007, of course you will see images of it before then at the time of my Clients release where no doubt you will have a chance to drive it as well. I figure that will be March 2007 then I have a 3 month agreement before I can sell retail, an agreeable term as he put up the cash to start it all anyway, I would have gone to a year :-) (I have other things to do to keep me busy).

At this stage I am more interested in production development, a very interesting challenge and I will delay until I am satisfied production is as cheap, fast and as accurate with quality that can be had.

You know if I put up some CAD images everyone would be happy but thats not a real car and I dont want to waste my time or money (which eventually someone pays for and it aint going to be me) to do that process.

I am a Foriegner in China, Chinese Women flock to me because they smell my money.