K.i.s.s.

[carnut169]

If I was thinking about running an "F1000" would I still do it?

Its hard to say... with all of the recent posts forcasting the demise of home-built cars, poorly written rules, name calling, and super-expensive manfactured rides I would be having second thoughts.

Then I pulled up the thread that started it all... (kinda) it had nearly 18,000 views and 200+ posts... one of the most popular in Apex history. http://www.apexspeed.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11034


Why was this thread so popular?

I have to believe it was because the original intent of F1000 was so very exciting! Put a 1000cc bike motor in an FC. Simple! Run as fast, or faster, for less money. Great!
For me, a 1996 VD is no longer a car that can be nationally competitive- so I had to buy a new car or realize that no matter how much time I've got in development, a 98+ VD will have an advantage I might not be able to overcome.

You can convert a current FC to F1000 for less than $9,000 if someone else does the work. If you feel like doing it cut the cost WAY down. Here is my post detailing my costs: http://www.apexspeed.com/forums/show...&postcount=184

I'll bet you could convert one for $4000 w/ in-house fab work and its really not all that hard. (you will have to sell the Pinto & LD)
If you were planning on rebuilding the Pinto doesn't that become a wash?


I don't think we are after the current successful FC, FA, FM, FSCCA, ect drivers but rather the frustrated CFC, and FC owners who's cars sit in the garage most of the time. We may attract some new guys who have seen this formula work in Europe, Canada, etc. We may also get some folks who like open wheel but are afraid of the expense.

What about manifacturer support/ participation? I think those guys need to figure out how to build a car for less than $25k if they want to play in the sandbox. The whole thing starts getting fuzzy when the guys like me who are converting cars (for free) are now racing against $50,000 new cars.

[jattus]

With the thread name KISS, I thought this was going to be the lyrics for Gene Simmons song "I am Indy"

Sean- The ole' 96 is looking mighty sharp-

[sidney]

I go back to a post I had some time ago. If the cars cost $40-50k, then there are already suitable alternatives to F1k. If the manufacturers want to play in this class, they need to understand the market. We got plenty of $40k+ formula classes, and OBTW, you get to run nationals when you buy one. Someone else put it simply, what we need is a $25k formula class.

The reasons I am attracted to F1k versus FV (what I was driving previously). Disc brakes (whoa, don't get too technically advanced), cheap donor motors that can easliy be "adjusted" with minimal additional cost, wings, sequential transmission, better foot and side intrusion protection. The list goes on and on. Come on out to the midwest next year Sean, we'll have a good time.

Ian

[emotepix]

I think my current estimates show an honest $13k in an 86, all up with a GSXR1000R and LSD in it (after selling stuff and fabricating as much as possible by myself, and of course, a ton of help from apex fellows...)

We'll see how it performs out with the expensive cars when it's done.

And yes, that's what got me interested in F1000 in the first place. Not just the driving.

If it gets expensive again, just to keep up with the big dogs, well, I'll just have to find somewhere else to play.

[RussMcB]

Manufacturers may do market research and determine that there are enough people willing to spend $40,000 or more for a cycle powered car. If they build it and people buy it, then the people with old converted FF2000 cars will simply have to get satisfaction out of doing well against people spending 3x more. That happens in most every class. Not much you can do about it except feel good about how well you perform at the level you've invested.

[Stan Clayton]

Very wise words, Russ.

[emotepix]

So Russ, what you're saying is that we might as well all give up and run to win somewhere else? What? NASA? VARA?

Why is there not a class for the rich/fast/latest greatest, and another class for the people who can (and want to) afford to run, but not the latest every year?

I thought this was meant to be it??

So this class will be processions yet again?

I just cannot believe the technocrats have us beat from the getgo, simply because I are one too and there should be more than enough of us who are smart enough to figure this out so everybody's happy.

Don't the sports car hotshot classes have these kinds of performance leveling issues? With bike motors? And how come they can make a "rising star class" of it whereas we're all bickering at the pits?

What about CF1000 from the getgo? Like in Le Mans, you know, where several levels of performance run together? Then the new/rich guys can compete in F1000 and us homebuilders can try to win in CF1000?

Since when is a production car a homebuilt one anyway?

[Rennie Clayton]

Chris,

The sports car hotshot classes made a "rising star class" out of themselves only by virtue of the fact that a competitor could reasonably expect to purchase a running car from a manufacturer who would produce a dominant car on order. DSR languished in the cellars of SCCA competition as a "homebuilt" class until Lee Stohr came along and started selling cars. Then it exploded.

Draw your own conclusions.


Cheers,
Rennie

[Scott Gesford]

Chris,

The sports car hotshot classes made a "rising star class" out of themselves only by virtue of the fact that a competitor could reasonably expect to purchase a running car from a manufacturer who would produce a dominant car on order. DSR languished in the cellars of SCCA competition as a "homebuilt" class until Lee Stohr came along and started selling cars. Then it exploded.

Draw your own conclusions.


Cheers,
Rennie

My thoughts exactly. DSR was a 'wow look at the neat little car' class until Stohr came along. Now look at it. Who's to say there isn't a market for professionally built f1000 cars. Most of the new cars in DSR are run by drivers new to the class. Guess Lee saw the market that no one else did.

[emotepix]

Hi Guys

Sorry I vented a little there, it's just out of a basic sense of frustration.

What I'm after is a simple set of rules I can follow to allow me to build and run a competitive car without spending too much money on it. "Too much" being on a blue collar worker's salary, not a millionaire's discretionary fund.

While I fully understand the economics of the issue vis a vis the mauifacturer's (pro's) side of things, I feel let down that the club, my club supposedly, that's tasked to be promoting and persuading new formula car racers (like me? not) to come and compete feels more like a professional sanctioning body than a grass roots, club level organization for amateurs, i.e. people who do not do this for a living but who love it, as I do.

Again, don't get me wrong here. I've nothing but the greatest respect for Lee (as I believe he already knows) and his efforts in this community. And yes, he did give the DSR class a much needed shot in the arm. But what did in fact happen to the real homebuilders out there? Did they get outclassed and just fade away? Isn't this meant to be about getting everybody a place to race and try to win? Not just the fastest few, or those who can afford to run with them?

I don't know. When I started bike racing, I had a decent machine that was not the best, but it still had a chance, if I rode it well enough and the other guys got unlucky. What I'm seeing here is that the pro level works teams are allowed into every event, amateur or otherwise, and if they were back then, I don't think I'd have even thought about starting to race at all. That's like learning how to spar with a pro heavyweight allowed in the ring.

If that makes me one of the unwashed minority, then I guess I will head for the hills after all.

Everybody else on the planet allows for the reality that, over time, the performances of a race car class will spread, especially at the club (amateur) level (as in FC1, FC2, etc).

I still fail to see why the SCCA does not.

[R. Pare]

guys:

i've said it before, and will say it again:

Racing is a competitive sport, both for the drivers and for the car builders. Because of that, there will ALWAYS be an escallation in performance and costs - and that really gets pushed primarily by the car owners, NOT the builders ( DSR being the only big exception I've ever seen).

If the drivers don't want to go faster, and especially if they are not willing to spend any money to go faster, the builders have very little leverage to force anyone to spend more than they want.

It's the old saying - if it ain't worth expending on, it ain't gonna get spent.

If you really want to keep the price down for new cars, and keep the converted cars competitive longer, you'll need to figure out rules that will limit both normal expenditures, AND limit ways that will make the cars a lot faster for those guys willing to shell $$$ out.

I've given you my opinion on how that might be done.


Now YOU go figure it out!

[Anonymous Lee]

Ren, you are correct about the languishing circumstances in DSR, but to put the health of DSR solely on Lee is a bit much. Many of the drivers got their impetus to buy his car from watching Radical’s and the like

I give him credit though he builds a beautiful car.

[Rennie Clayton]

Anonymous,

How is life in Washington?

a competitor could reasonably expect to purchase a running car from a manufacturer who would produce a dominant car on order

Allow me to elaborate: nobody wants to purchase a new ready-made mid-packer, which is what the Radical was and is. With apologies to Radical, as their cars were never intended to compete with anything but themselves. Lee builds and sells a car specifically designed for DSR, and any bloke with the cash can reasonably expect to plunk it down and buy a National Championship contender, which you simply cannot do with any other manufacturer, at least until they prove themselves as capable of such.


Cheers,
Rennie