FF nationwide tire suggestion

[John LaRue]

In this proposal is the goal a) to save money or b) to penalize or handicap new technology?

If the goal is to save money this approach could easily backfire and likely will. If there is no control upon the number of tires a FF racer can purchase during the season and it is permissible to run new "hard" tires at each race you have solved nothing. Actually, I think it will be worse as a new hard tire will work much better than a seasoned hard tire. Reference comments by Dave W and John Robinson. (FYI I won this year's Sprints on 2005 Runoff's qualifying tires.) The proposal has no substance although it certainly has a tremendous amount of curb appeal.

If the goal is to handicap the new technology this seems to be a strange way to accomplish it. I think this is absolutely the wrong thing to do and believe those who think along this line belong in a spec series or vintage racing. I however would propose that if this is truly what you want to do then simply invert the grid, handicap "new cars" by a certain amount of time per lap or throw everyone in and run by ET brackets. (I would certainly favor giving a certain amount of time for each year a car is old!)

I am not aware of any FF program that mandates the compound if they are not under a "spec tire" program. I am not sure what you are referring to by the term "control tire".

Finally, if FF racers want to run a hard tire, a radial street tire or a tractor tire they are free to do so TODAY. Why aren't they? Because they think they will not be competitive.

Once the tire rule is adopted and the gap is not bridged (and it won't be) what then? Well then we will have to look at limiting other items. shocks, head porting, light wheels, new cars, better brakes, testing, races entered....the list is never ending until we do get to a spec car/series. You are attempting to legislate competitveness and it doesn't work.

As noted, there is no reasonable method to limit spending. If the money is not spent on one thing it will be on another. It is a simple fact of life that there is always going to be someone with more than you. If you equate spending to performance then there is no way to level the field.

The key to success is to maximize your perfomance for your budget and to play in a game that you can afford to spend what is necessary to run where you want to run. I would suggest that the one bright spot of FF is that it rewards those who work hard and think. Certainly an adequate budget helps, but hard work and innovative thinking can and will win races.

[Andy Antipas]

Control tires and spec tires are the same thing. Sorry for the confusion. What is different about this proposal is a choice of hard compound brands, which I think is great for the tire companies and competitors.

I agree with much of what you said. However, my experience with spec tires is different than yours. Here in RMDiv there are three regular national FF competitors. Only three. I know of several other racer friends, in the division, who would give nationals a try if there was a spec tire. As you said skill, hard work, and creativity can and do make a difference.

My limited national experience makes it clear that you need a constant supply of new tires to be competitive. That doesn't seem reasonable to me. I have seen spec tires work well in vintage FF and club FF. I know of some vintage FF drivers who use new tires all of the time, but it does not give them a competitive advantage. Again, its that hard work, skill thing again.

FF lost the plot many years ago with the escallation of technology. The cat is already out of the bag, and we can not put it back. That is not my goal. Engines and tires are the two biggest expense items, I don't want to see the rule book get thicker, but I believe controlling tire costs will help with shrinking grids and allow more people to give regional and national FF a try.

Andy

[Bob Devol]

The points about the first heat cycle advantage of a harder compound spec tire are well taken and documented by experience.

Perhaps the answer here is to mitigate the first heat cycle advantage as much as possible by mandating a "single set of tires of an entire event" rule. As in years gone by, tires would be specially marked on the false grid for the first session of the race weekend. Barring tire failure, competitors would not be allowed to change rubber during the event. If the first session of the weekend is a qualifier, anyone who wants to pony up for a new set can run their sticker tires in an effort to gain position on the starting grid.

If the tires are Goodyear 600, for instance, post first cycle grip stays pretty much stable from the second cycle up to 12-15 cycles, depending on driving styles, track surfaces, etc. So most competitors would be on an even footing at the green flag.

[John Robinson II]

The key to success is to maximize your perfomance for your budget and to play in a game that you can afford to spend what is necessary to run where you want to run. I would suggest that the one bright spot of FF is that it rewards those who work hard and think. Certainly an adequate budget helps, but hard work and innovative thinking can and will win races.

Very well said. You need to be smart where you spend your money. Seat time is still the very best investment.

John

[Greg Mercurio]

Good job Mr. LaRue. Thost that are panting for a spec tire rule, 4-way unobtanium shocks, titanium diff and tripods, etc.etc.etc. would be well advised to read your post several times.


Nothing will improve your lap times or grid position or podium finishes better than seat time.

[Daryl DeArman]

Nothing will improve your lap times or grid position or podium finishes better than seat time.

Maybe true in the beginning stages, but once you are on the flatter part of the learning curve--nothing makes a bigger difference in lap times than tire choice and condition.

Further, if your (genereic--not specifically you Greg) stance is that seat time is the across-the board answer, than why not welcome a harder tire for everyone and eliminate an uneccesary cost of such a highly consumable item?

[Joe911]

None of us will disagree with the statements “maximize your performance for your budget” ….. “play in a game that you can afford to spend what is necessary to run where you want to run” and “Seat time is still the very best investment.

However, those who are successful in “the game” are seldom in support of changes and were I them, I would not support them either. But many threads suggest there is support to change the game and that the game can be played for less.

If their perspective is that they like the softer tires and don't want to slide around more - no problem just say so.

COST: What opponents of a harder tire never address is whether the harder tires are more competitive for more heat cycles. If this is true, to maintain some level of speed, a racer can buy fewer sets of tires over the course of a season. Certainly someone can continue to run a set for 2 cycles and discard, but less of them will and the gain for those that do will be less. Several posts in this thread seem to indicate that harder tires hold grip longer (see previous post). CF competitors seem in support of this assertion. A post from a FSCCA racer indicates the R45 tire (harder tire) lasts longer and maintains competitive levels of speed for a second weekend.

PENALIZE NEW TECHNOLOGY aka reducing the spread of the field. I appreciate Mr. LaRue’s obvious sense of humor when he suggests that we “simply invert the grid” or ”giving a certain amount of time for each year a car is old”. But I have seen it posted that harder tires reduce the speed gap between the new cars and the older cars (many of whom sit at home because of perceived costs and non-competitiveness). Is this not true? Why is closing the gap between 1st and 4th and 7th bad?

[John Robinson II]

Maybe true in the beginning stages, but once you are on the flatter part of the learning curve--nothing makes a bigger difference in lap times than tire choice and condition.

Very true in the begining stages and even more important as you get faster. -John

Further, if your (genereic--not specifically you Greg) stance is that seat time is the across-the board answer, than why not welcome a harder tire for everyone and eliminate an uneccesary cost of such a highly consumable item?

Have you ever driven a really well set up car on stickies? The is NOTHING better then driving the car harder then you ever have before and the damn thing just turns, then right after it rotates you smash the gas and it just pulls forward, no slide slip, all forward bite. That is the reason I race on slicks and always will.

I started racing on R60s in CF. I know what they are like. I had sets that had 10+ cycles and some that had only a few. Newer tires were faster and always will be. But they teach you how to be smooth, and how to hang on.

The competition thing is kinda bogus to me. I just got back from a regional that had a large run group, all formula (no FV) and a DSR, everyone except for the very slowest had some one to RACE with, might not have been in their class, but it was another car to dice with, and a situation to over come. Their is someone for most everyone to run with, problem is the cars are at the track, and the complainers would have to be there as well.


John

[John LaRue]

Bob,

While your idea does have merit, it only places a greater premium on getting track time before the event which is another cost. When we used to be faced with the tire limitiation people would have to show up on Friday to run. They would get their cars set up and then, at most, utilize the Saturday practice to scrub tires. Qualifying would be a 2 lap bonzi run and the tires would be ripe and ready to go for the race. This certainly did not maximize track time nor save anyone money.

[Daryl DeArman]

John,

Yes I have, and here is my perspective.

To me 'it' is all about maximizing the cards you've been dealt. If I can 'smash' the gas out of the corner without any concerns about side slip--I waited too long to smash the gas. If I am mid corner with grip in reserve--I scrubed too much speed before that point--why am I going that slow?

Driving the car at its' limit is how I get my kicks. Some get kicks just as big by going faster even if it is at 90% of the cars potential.

To each his own. I'd prefer to keep the costs of highly consumable items that have a large effect on lap times as low as possible.

[R. Pare]

While I don't have a dog in this hunt, here's my take:

Going to a spec or hard tire will not produce any savings for those at the pointy end of the stick - if they can currently afford new gumballs every weekend, they will have no problem with continuing that practice with the hard tires if doing so gives them an advantage.

Sorry, guys, but that's part of racing and winning!

However, IF mandating a hard tire gives those who currently stay at home a lot the PERCEPTION that they have a better chance of being competitive and results in them comeing to more races because of that perception, then the idea will accomplish what it is that you really all want ( more cars racing in FF every weekend).

[S Lathrop]

How many of you advocartes of spec tires were racing when SCCA had a spec tire for nationals?

We don't have a spec tire rule because it did not work.

Making every one run what they qualified on also increases the tire budget.

The biggest tire problem for most people is of their own making. They rely on a new set of tires to cure the handling imbalance that they do not bother to correct. That idal hard tire will not make them faster or correct the bad setups they continue to use.

A properly setup car will get 100 miles form a set of relatively soft tires and turn very competitive times to the end. I know of one FC national championship that was won on a set of tires that had 8 heat cycles prior to the start.

Look else where to cure the cost problem. That is keeping people home. What happened to open trailers behind station wagons?

[jgaither]

What happened to open trailers behind station wagons?

They were buried with Harvey's ashes. God rest his soul.

JG

[Jonathan Hirst]

Delete post.

Jonathan

[Daryl DeArman]

Going to a spec or hard tire will not produce any savings for those at the pointy end of the stick - if they can currently afford new gumballs every weekend, they will have no problem with continuing that practice with the hard tires if doing so gives them an advantage.

Richard,

I agree with an exception, harder spec tires that don't cost as much.

Let's make a reasonable assumption that new tires will offer some advantage over used tires whether they are spec or not. No matter how minute that advantage, those that need to, will replace them just as often as before. However, the AR's (for example) are just over half the price of the sticky tires. That creates an automatic savings in the tire column.

I have a fixed racing budget. My racing budget is a small percentage of my household budget by choice. If I am saving $300/weekend on tires and I am already doing every race, I now have approximately $3000/year extra to spend elsewhere. It won't be going to groceries or utilities. I can guarantee you I will find a way to spend that same $3000 on something to further develop the package on an as required basis.

Currently, it is a savings to me since I am already winning. As the bar continues to rise I can spend that $3000 on items that will make less of a difference in my lap times but will be longer lasting. Net effect in the end is no difference in cost to run up front.

Those who chose to run a less expensive harder tire under the current rules, certainly could. But why would they if it puts them so far out of the hunt it isn't even fun? If everyone runs a harder spec tire, it will not change the grid order (for the most part--there are a few that finish where they do ONLY because they can afford new stickies every weekend and some of their competition can't), but it will bunch it up a little. Where is the harm in that?

In VARA FV1 we just changed from a list of approved tires (where the Dunlop was the only real choice at $800+/set to also allow the AR at $450/set) The savings per set in the tire column pays my entry and race fuel costs for a weekend--not bad.