New to Road Racing

[A36Pilot]

This is a question for anyone:

I am new to road racing with some experience in karting - Rotax RM-1 (top speed 80 mph) - and very little experience or training in mechanics. I have enjoyed karting so much that I want to get into cars.

Assuming I have the resources, what class would you suggest I start with - Formula 1000 or Formula Vee/Formula First?

Formula 1000 is attractive because of the motorcycle engine and the RPM's that can be achieved as well as the sequential and paddle gear shifting, but I don't want to enter this class if I am going to be totally out of my league. But at the same time, I enjoy challenges.

Formula Vee/Formula First have been recommended as ideal classes for beginners. But Vee is very old and thus parts are difficult to buy. Formula First is fairly new but is a regional class in only the Cen Div.

Thanks for your time.

William Gow

[PK]

Interesting question as so far I haven't seen anyone comparing Vee and F1000! Very different animals.

I'd think F1000 is probably not mature enough as a class for it to be a great way to jump into formula car racing. There are no common or de facto standard chassis or engines. All cars are conversion projects or totally new one-offs. In another year or two there will be some standard approaches to the class, but to start there seems to be adding an additional complication that isn't necessary. If your goal is to race (not build a car), this isn't the best bet, yet.

FVee is much more practical in that sense. Just about everything there is to be known about the cars is very well known. There are standard suppliers for everything. Used cars are inexpensive and easy to come by. The cars are pretty quirky, though, because of the requirement that VW suspension be used. Much of what it takes to make them go fast and be reliable isn't directly transferrable to other formula cars.

Unfortunately, there is also a fair amount of turmoil in the other traditional classes (Formula Ford and Formula Continental). Because of that, I'd hesitate to spend top dollar in either class to get the latest car. However, I wouldn't hesitate to get an older car in the $10-15K range (with spares) and go learn how to set it up and race it. I would choose between the classes based on whether you want the speed, coolnes, and added expense of wings (Formula Continental) or the simplicity of no wings (Formula Ford).

[Marshall Mauney]

I may get flamed for suggesting this, but if you're coming out of karts, you might want to look at F500 as a starting point. You can get a good used car for under $10K, and the handling dynamics will be similar to what you're used to in a kart, but far better suited to road racing - and lots faster. Lap times are roughly equal to FF - far faster than FV/FFirst - and costs are quite low.

Pros: Fastest class for the money in SCCA; easy 2-stroke tuning; great support from the vendors in the class.

Cons: Noisy 2-stroke; CVT transmission and suspension systems are unique to this class; participation is largely national (not regional) and popularity varies greatly from region to region.

If it sounds interesting, you might check out www.f500.org. There's a related mailing list that is quite well-utilized by the participants.

[A36Pilot]

Thanks PK and Marshall.

Forgive my ignorance, but can you indicate the speeds and types of gear shifting (ie traditional vs sequential) in the FF and FC? In my Rotax RM-1 kart, we have sequential gears with a paddle shifter on the steering wheel. I really enjoy this set-up and would prefer to race in a class that has this (that is why F1000 appealed to me). If not present in any class, then OK - I'll live without it.

Also, how does the presence of wings in FC complicate things, other than adding to cost?

Finally, what is the "coolness" factor that you mentioned and which class is the "coolest"?

William Gow

[A36Pilot]

I forgot one thing.

I do like the handling characteristics of my kart and Marshall indicated that F500 would be similar. However it is mainly a national class, which is not favorable to me since I am a newbie.

Are the handling characteristics of FF and FC somewhat similar to that of karts?

William Gow

[thunderracing91]

I am from the karting world also. I raced jr1 2cycle all the way up to 125cc shifters in superkarts usa. After we decided to make the jump to cars we went with a formula ford. At first it was intimidating but after we fixed the bugs out in the car and started to learn the car it is not all that complicated and a blast to drive. If I were to do it over again I wish i could have rented out a F500 for a season to get an idea of what it was like to race against cars. It took me a while to adapt to the size of the car since I raced shifterkarts on the same tracks and my reaction times had to slow down. Other than that the main thing is to get a car that is race ready. Something that you dont need to fix every weekend. Thats what we bought and in the long run we probably could have bought a nicer car from the get go. Good luck with your decision!!

Andrew

[Dave Belz]

Well... I looked up Lloydminster, AB on Mapquest, and - WOW! That's quite a distance from any of the road racing tracks that I know of. I know that there is a track in Spokane, but SCCA doesn't run any events there that I know of. Another approach for you, might be to pick a region where you plan to race and then try renting from someone who serves that area. This might work especially well if you plan to fly to your races to keep travel time to a reasonable level.

Maybe a couple of the Canadian drivers could help out with a link or phone number for additional info on what might be available above 49 degrees north. If you are interested in SCCA events and classes, the formula car participation is much greater in the central US and California than it is in the Pacific Northwest (where I am). There isn't much of anything between the Canadian border and Denver or Salt Lake City.

None of the classes you mentioned in your initial post have sequential or paddle shifter. Some of the newest DSR cars have paddles (I believe...). Or, you could try FSCCA for a sequential shifter. Wings complicate things in terms of finding the balance between additional downforce vs. high speed drag. They also add to the expense if you need to replace one due to contact with something or someone. Classes like FF, F500 and FV rely exclusively on mechanical grip and do not have wings.

Good luck, keep the questions coming!

Dave

[Dave Belz]

Also, check some of the other threads on this forum for additional contacts or information. I just saw a post in the FC Classifieds by someone from Regina, SK. They should be able to provide first hand info on racing from your part of the continent.

Dave

[group7]

Alberta racing is sanctioned by: Western Canadian Motorsports Association www.wcma.ca
Your closest club is: Northern Alberta Sports Car Club www.nascc.ab.ca
Race City in Calgary hosts all but one of the races in Alberta: www.racecity.com
In Alberta the only open wheel cars running are Formula Ford 1600 and Formula Libre which is mostly F2000 cars. There are a number of new drivers and cars this year, almost all are running older F2000s.
A 1980s to early 90s FF1600 or F2000 would be the probably be the best choice for this area so you had some competition and people to help you learn set-up and maintaince.$8000-$10000 should get you a car and some spares.
Daryl E.
Calgary Alberta

[PK]

F1000 would have a sequential shifter, though I don't know if anyone is doing a steering wheel paddle. FF and FC are standard H pattern 4 speeds with dog ring boxes.

The 'coolness factor' I was referring to is just that I personally prefer the looks of a car with wings. It seems more purposeful, and it looks more like an F1 car. In my experience, the tuning the aero is helpful once you get going fast, but until then, you can set it for high downforce and not worry about it too much while you learn everything else. The bigger issue for a guy learning about road racing is that you're much more likely to have some car damage in a simple off course when you have that front wing down low and out in front. Of the cars mentioned so far, F1000 and FC are the ones with wings.

At a typical road course, the top speed and average speed for the cars will be something like:

FVee 115 80
F500 125 85
FF 125 85
FC 135 90
F1000 140 95

I second the comment about buying a fully running and sorted car. I know many people who started out with a car that was either mechanically not reliable or not well setup, and a lot of time (and I mean up to a couple of seasons) was wasted sorting that stuff out. It's hard enough to sort out if you have a lot of experience, it's almost impossible to do so while you're learning the basics.

F500 may be a good step for you based on the comments from the other guys who came from karts. My biggest reason not to go that route would be that what you learn about handling, clutch tuning, etc. isn't transferrable to other classes. But, the driving part may be easier to get used to.

[formulasuper]

"F500 may be a good step for you based on the comments from the other guys who came from karts. My biggest reason not to go that route would be that what you learn about handling, clutch tuning, etc. isn't transferrable to other classes. But, the driving part may be easier to get used to."

William, Actually, the F500 cars do teach most of the handling setup facts used in other classes, such as setting corner weights, ride height, front camber & caster, final drive ratios, etc. No, they don't have conventional shocks, however they do have adjustable ratio bellcranks, the rubber cushions can be changed for different response, & now they are expermenting with friction devices for rebound control.
Plus, being from the great white north I would suspect you have some CVT experience dealing with snowmobiles. The CVT is the key to winning in that class. Getting those things to backshift (downshift) correctly is an art in itself.

[A36Pilot]

Thanks Andrew, Dave, Daryl, PK and Scott. Your comments are greatly appreciated.

During my research, I came across Formula Mazda. Anyone with any experience or knowledge of this class? Since it is a spec car and with my limited knowledge of engines, etc., I thought this might be a class to investigate further. Or am I totally out to lunch here?

William Gow

[thunderracing91]

Formula Mazda seems to be a good class also. I dont know what the car count is here in the midwest but I always see them in the pits. There is a few teams here in the midwest that rents the Formula Mazdas out. Pro one motorsports come to mind.(www.proonemotorsports.com) I think they rent out single weekends and full seasons if interested. They run lap times that are quicker than FC but are slower than a FA. Power to weight ratio is probably something similar to a 125cc shifterkart. They seem like a fun car to drive and heck I wouldnt mind driving one myself!!??!

Andrew

[Dave Belz]

I have never driven an FM, but have shared the track with them at SCCA regional races - at least with a regional driver, they have lots of torque and acceleration but don't carry as much speed through a corner as a FC or even a FF. If you like acceleration, the FM could be a good choice. If, on the other hand, you'd prefer to be amazed at how fast you can drive through a corner (my preference) then maybe FF or FC is a better option. The FM probably wins handily in the engine lifespan/low maintenance category, but comes up short in the "coolness" column due to dated suspension designs and components. I once spoke to a driver who likened his FM to a Mustang GT, vs. his Ralt Super Vee as the Ferrari...

My advice would be to choose a class and car that you think is at least "cool" enough to keep you motivated between events, and popular enough in the area where you will race to provide plenty of emotional and technical support when you need it. This from a guy who just relocated by 750 miles to be closer to racing in the summer.

HAVE FUN!
Dave

[A36Pilot]

Thanks Thunderracing91 and Dave for your comments - very enlightening.

I have narrowed my preliminary choices to FC and FM - I will be at Road America on Aug 27 where I will be able to see all the cars up close. Hopefully I can come away with more knowledge.

[RobLav]

You will learn more in FC and come to understand your potential as a driver and engineer. I highly recommend a 1994 - 1997 Van Diemen. They are a good bargain for the money and the performance is not THAT far off the more modern ones.

To me, the next choice is Formula Ford - you can attain those same goals but without dealing with wings.

Good luck with whatever you choose.

[thunderracing91]

I will be at Road America that weekend of aug 26-27. Look for a blue mondiale FF #91. I will be pitted with all the other FF's that weekend or try to pit with all of them...................

Andrew

[A36Pilot]

Thanks Andrew.

I will drop by.

William Gow

[A36Pilot]

Andrew.

Sorry but I had to cancel this weekend's trip.

William Gow