*UNOFFICIAL* 2006 Class Participation Numbers

[Stan Clayton]

Okay gang, here are the latest unofficial numbers for 2006 National participation. The numbers are completely unofficial, but should be fairly accurate.

Here's what I did. I downloaded every single .pdf on SCCA's website in the folder called Regional and Nationa Race Results, then scanned them and discarded the Regional-only results. That left me with approximately 50 National and Regional-National results, which I collated into an Excel spreadsheet.To get car count I simply scanned up from the bottom of each sheet or results, looking for the "PIC" for the last place car in each class in a run group, then added for DNFs and DSQs, but not DNSs. That number was entered into the spreadsheet for that event, and the spreadsheet did all the subsequent adding and sorting.

What I did NOT do. I did not account for persons who qualified and then did not take the green flag for the race. Those data are not on the official results sheets, so I ignored them on the premise that such oversights must affect all classes proportionally, so they won't make any huge difference to the relative position of any particular class. I also did not double-check my work. Going through all those pdf's once was bad enough; I was not about to do it twice...

Did I make errors? Sure! Does it matter? Not really, as I was only really trying to get a "big picture" of how classes are doing compared to last year.

Anyway, here are the data, followed by the same data for 2005.

2006 data through 7/02
SM 1104
SRF 956
FV 374
FA 307
EP 297
FC 282
GT-1 275
FM 274
FF 255
FP 236
T-2 236
DSR 233
SSC 200
AS 190
T-1 179
GP 168
SSB 167
GT-2 162
CSR 157
HP 142
GT-3 140
S2 128
F500 124
GT-L 106
T-3 96


2005 data for entire season, including Runoffs
SRF 1320
FV 650
FA 549
FC 514
EP 470
FP 429
AS 428
T-2 426
GT-1 418
FF 404
SSB 372
FM 368
SSC 360
DSR 334
F500 329
T-1 293
S2 281
GT-2 260
GT-L 249
GP 248
CSR 248
GT-3 212
HP 207

Have fun!

Stan

[Stan Clayton]

Some additional data added to my original post on the Sports Racer Forum.

[mblanc]

So in comparison,

FA drops from 3rd most popular class, to 4th

FC drops from 4th most popular class, to 6th

and
FF IMPROVES from 10th most popular class to 9th

YTD only, guess the numbers could change by year end.



but to be fair, every class has a decrease, (looking at the other post)
FF just less of a decrease than some other classes as a whole.

Thanks for the info.

[D.T. Benner]

Boy Stan since you Retired you have been able to make good use of your time! Thanks for your stat's!

[Bob Wright]

so... we really are becoming Spec Miata Car Club of America.

[EYERACE]

so looks like "on the bubble" would be

T-3 GTL HP F500 S2 GT-3

is Vegas making odds as to what is the first class to be jettisoned for Runoffs?

[Marshall Mauney]

so... we really are becoming Spec Miata Car Club of America.

I drove a rental Miata at Summit Point last weekend. 35 of 36 cars finished the race, and I think I passed more cars than I have in the past two years. These things are inexpensive (~$20K for a good car) and reliable. They also drive like overweight, underpowered pigs.

I also posted several places looking for a FSCCA to rent to drive - this was my first choice, but there were none available to rent in our area (only one was entered).

When was the last time anyone saw a 30+ car field of formula cars with only one DNF? Also, the team I was working with quoted me a flat $125/event for pre-race prep work. Compare....

Bottom line, you can run an arrive-and-drive season in a Miata for less than a self-run F500 or FF effort. If a casual driver is looking for a low-hassle way to get out and race, it's probably the best bang for the buck available today, and you'll have plenty of people to race with. However, they are not real race cars, and the driving experience isn't anywhere close to our cars.

IMHO, open-wheel racing needs a PR initiative to stay relevant in the US. The Spec Miata explosion is just another sympton of NASCAR's marketing success.

[EYERACE]

Marshall - you make good points.

Here's one funny thought..........20 years from now, SM will probably not be that big a deal, and there will be many people waxing nostalgic about the good ol' days back in 2006 when they could do an arrive & drive weekend in their SM back then.......i predict such will be said at the funerals of people that did their own arrive & drives in their 1963 Triumphs.

FF grew early on because there was a rule stating how much the sale price could be....1,000 British Pounds. I've never heard ever of anything about price limits since. Sure there are spec this and spec thats and rules designed to keep prices down - but a limit on cost from the get go is maybe what open wheel needs..... or at least a sincere effort to build one using many production parts again. FSCCA has been fielding a fair number of cars in the SEDIV but other than the engine [which also comes through the SCCA] i believe there are few, if any, parts obtainable on your own from production sources.

[Larry]

Sorry, Eye, but there was never a limit on the cost of FF. The 1,000-pound mark was the cost of a very basic Lotus 51, and it was a marketing gimmick. Those old cars used a Renault gearbox, which was soon replace by a Hewland and the 1000-pound mark was gone!

I agree that FF needs to drive down the costs, and if we do so, it will re-energize the class. Today the price delta between a new FF (if there was such a thing) and FC is a few thousand dollars--certainly less than 10%, so most new buyers will opt for FC.

To create a low-priced formula car, you can start by looking at the major cost drivers. A new Kent engine is in the neighborhood of $12K, and a Hewland is about $8K. If you can't lower these costs, you're not going to be able to impact the overall price very much.

Larry Oliver
International Racing Products

[Bob Wright]

mmmm....To run up front in a SM its more like $35-40M. $10,000 for a Huffaker motor, then all the other tricks that really add up fast.

Now you're back in the cost range of a front running FC. Put a Zetec in it and eliminate rebuild cost for 3 or 4 years at a time and the only thing we have to work on is that very ugly tire bill...but it IS a real race car

[Sean Maisey]

I put Stan's numbers into an Excel model and came up with this. If your aren't racing a spec car it is pretty disturbing...

http://billmaisey.com/Sean.htm

Sean

[DaveW]

Stan,

Am I correct in saying that the 2006 results are only for the races to date, and do not include and are not extrapolated to the full year? Or did you extrapolate to get full year equivalency?

In which case, the numbers for classes that existed last year are not as terrible as they seem...

[Dave SanF 50]

Bob,
The SM front runners have stated they are using 3 sets of DOT Toyos per double national race weekend. A DOT tire that is shaved to minimum depth is only good for one or two sesssions. So now using a DOT tire puts you right back into the tire wars. And you can not buy take offs because there is no thread left.

But the good news is the Huffaker motor is only $6963.
dave

[Ted and Nancy]

So Marshall why would anyone want to drive a "overweight pig"? I would rather stay home and whatch NASCAR, seems more exciting.

[Steve Demeter]

$40K is what Sports Car spent on their Miata.

But they did buy ALL new stuff.

[Daryl DeArman]

why would anyone want to drive a "overweight pig"?

I don't race a Miata and I am not Marshall, however MANY people would rather race against others than against themselves and really don't care how fast the car is. Apparent by the numbers.

The speed and weight is all relative, FC feels like an underaccelerating, underbraked overweight pig to some people too. And the Miata feels light and nimble to some as well.

I had the privelage of racing in the VROC. VARA puts each class champion from HP to FSV along with a couple of entries auctioned off to some pros, in the latest generation Celicas used in the pro/celebrity LBGP for an end of the year race of champions. Those cars were underpowered, undertired push pigs, but you know what? We were all dealt the same hand and all dealt with it to the best of our abilities. The RACING was fantastic.

If we didn't really care about the race and cared more about the ride we would all be racing older FA's by ourselves at regionals.

Nothing against FC's, Miatas or those who race Celicas all the time. I race a Vintage Vee for goodness' sake.

[Sean Maisey]

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Sean Maisey]

- sorry got typing too fast and posted twice...

[Sean Maisey]

DaveW,

Not speaking for Stan, but the numbers in the post I put up are meant to extropolate 2006 so far into a direct comparison with 2005.

Stan's numbers were for the first 49 races of 2006. So I divided his raw participation by 49 to get average number of entrants per race for each class. I then divided the 2006 entries by 65 to get the number of entrants per race for last year. I compared each and did a percentage difference. With the exception of SM and T-3 all classes are down from last year.

The shocking thing to me is that so many classes are so far down. F500 is down 50% from last year. SSB, S2, AS and GTL are down over 40%. All of the formula classes that we are fans of are down 15-25%. These numbers are not restricted to be top 5 divisions, but I still think they indicate that several classes are at risk of being on probation.

Sean

[P.W. LeCain]

----------------------------------------

[Marshall Mauney]

$40K is what Sports Car spent on their Miata.

SportsCar built it from a brand-new chassis, and built it to the Pro series rules, which dictate suppliers for most of the parts. I was told that the car that is in the points lead in the MARRS series (very competitive, BTW) was built for less than $20K. In fact, in the SSM group (36 cars), the newest chassis was a 1994 (per the qualifying sheets).

To run up front in a SM its more like $35-40M. [...]

Now you're back in the cost range of a front running FC.

Yes, you CAN spend $30K+ on a SM, but the vast majority of them are in the $10-20K range. I would also expect that if you do start with a $40K zero-mile car that your operating and prep costs will be even lower, as you won't be dealing with parts with a 100K mile history. And, BTW, which FC can you buy new with a zero-time national-class engine for $40K?

And yes, the very fastest guys at nationals may be running a set of tires each session, but most of the regional guys aren't.

I'm not trying to do a sales job on SM, but I think we need to be realistic about what benefits - real and perceived - are driving participation to this class and pulling people out of open-wheelers.

[P.W. LeCain]

Sean,
The numbers in your grid are the same as Stan's. I don't see any extrapolation. Unless you are only talking about the calculations.

Second, the numbers don't support what I have seen at our Nationals. In the Northeast, FC and FF is down significantly while FA is up. I have only done three events so far, so the sample may be too small to be relevant.

I don't think the SCCA's future is bright. It has been run poorly as long as I can remember. We barely support all these classes and now we want to have FSCCA added as a class? Someone needs to make some controversial decisions such as eliminating classes. Some people may be upset if we just trashed FM, S2000, and F500. But an overwhelming majority would not be affected. The SCCA tries to please too many people and suffers because of it. This whole FSCCA will be a prime example but is a joke to me. Why introduce another formula car to a sanctioning body that barely supports the ones it has? Don't get me wrong, I appreciate the boost in FA participation from FSCCA. But lets face it, they are crap-wagons with little power and too much tire. We already have classes for that. Maybe we should give FBMW and Skip Barber FT's their own class. I'm sure the SCCA will bow to Mazda and allow the 016 in soon rendering all current Atlantics obsolete. That will do wonders for FA. Perhaps it will have the same positive effect that Zetecs have had on FC participation...

On the other hand, look at SM. Maybe we should look at what they have done to be such an overwhelming success. I'd tell you, but I don't know the answer. I'd imagine cost, availability, and equalization have played a large role.

Don't worry though, the runoffs schedule is out for 2010. With 72 National classes, attendees will get 3.5 minutes every other day for qualifying and a 4 lap championship sprint....

[Steve Demeter]

Thanks for pointing that out Marshall.

That is precisely why I said that they used all NEW Stuff in my post.

Steve

[Sean Maisey]

Paul,

My numbers are Stan's numbers, and you are correct. I didn't model participation for the last 15-16 races left this year. I simply compared average cars per class.

[Sean Maisey]

Paul,

My numbers are Stan's numbers, and you are correct. I didn't model participation for the last 15-16 races left this year. I simply compared average cars per class.

[Marshall Mauney]

So Marshall why would anyone want to drive a "overweight pig"? I would rather stay home and whatch NASCAR, seems more exciting.

The car that qualified in front of me outran me by .011 seconds. There was a similar margin to the car behind me. All but a couple of the 36 cars were still on the lead lap at the end, and I know that I was within a car-length of at least one other car for the vast majority of the race. After about 3 laps of continually harassing and being harassed, I actually was asking myself "Do these guys ever settle down?".

I've had good one-on-one races in F500 and CF, but the only other time I've been in this sort of pack of cars for that long was in RotaxMax karts.

It would be incredible if we could get that many cars on the grid every week in FF, F500 or FC (or F1000). How do we do it?

[Sean Maisey]

Paul,

My numbers are Stan's numbers, and you are correct. I didn't model participation for the last 15-16 races left this year. I simply compared average cars per class per event. But with more than 75% of the races run, it would take an incredible turnout for the next 5 weeks to bring participation up to last year's level...

One of the values of this kind of comparison is that we all see different participation trends at our local events.

I wouldn't worry too much about the 72 classes in 2010 scenario. If this trend continues. We will lose about 10-12 National classes over the next three years... (Besides that 24 class max at the Runoffs proposal is now a rule...)

Sean

[Rick Silver]

Paul I am not sure that FF is as far off from last year as you think. There were 16 FFs at the Glen Natl. last weekend. And more FFs than FCs at several nationals in the NE this year, something that has not happened in years. The drop off in FC Natl. numbers is clearly and entirely due to the new F2000 pro series. Most of those entrants were regular FC Natl. NE participants. They have chosen to run the new pro series over nationals. Why? I think the main reasons that I have been told are the SCCA runs too many classes together (look at the Pocono groupings, FA, FC, FM, CSR, DSR, S2, I hope I didnt leave anyone out) , less track time, pro F2000 Stewards and series management viewed more favorably , and a place that the Zetec can run comptetitively (or at an advantage) this year. (Sorry Bob, I couldn't resist)

Also, the stats showed that the FSCCA main draw has been from FC class ranks.

-Rick

[Bob Wright]

Keep those maps coming, we're still a work in progress. Its our stated (and very real goal) to create parity.

In the end I think it will enhance, not detract from the FC class count. BTW- I think FC is off nationwide, not just in the NE. At least we have a visible reason for the fall off here.

[M.L.Sauce]

Mr. Le Cain,I don't see where SCCA is on a down turn. From your perspective it sounds as though your FA class is healthy. I am sure someone is responsible for some of that result.I do agree with you that F/SCCA should not be in FA.It should be with FM as they are very similar in performance.I don't think F/SCCA will make the numbers this year but that remains to be seen.I would think that if you are so dissatified with the representation you get within the National governance you should donate some of your time to creating a club you can have a better opinion of.I was not happy with the direction of the SCCA so I got involved.I got tired of being the guy who complained about the staus Quo and did nothing to change it for the better.Maybe you should get involved. We need more drivers on the BOD.We have more to loose and more to gain by being involved with the process.It only takes about 10-20 hours a month and 6 4 day weekends a year to get the chance to make all those tough decisions.Sorry if I hijacked this thread.

[P.W. LeCain]

Mr. Le Cain,I don't see where SCCA is on a down turn. From your perspective it sounds as though your FA class is healthy. I am sure someone is responsible for some of that result.I do agree with you that F/SCCA should not be in FA.It should be with FM as they are very similar in performance.I don't think F/SCCA will make the numbers this year but that remains to be seen.I would think that if you are so dissatified with the representation you get within the National governance you should donate some of your time to creating a club you can have a better opinion of.I was not happy with the direction of the SCCA so I got involved.I got tired of being the guy who complained about the staus Quo and did nothing to change it for the better.Maybe you should get involved. We need more drivers on the BOD.We have more to loose and more to gain by being involved with the process.It only takes about 10-20 hours a month and 6 4 day weekends a year to get the chance to make all those tough decisions.Sorry if I hijacked this thread.

First, I completely agree with much of what you say. If anyone really wants to facilitate change and has no faith that the people in place will do it, get involved. That would be the most direct and effective approach. However, I do not have the time to give 10-20 hours or 6 4-day weekends unless I give up driving. And if I give up driving, then I don't really have a motive to get involved. Also, do not confuse getting involved with the right to express dissatisfaction. A paying member has that right whether he gets "involved" or not.

A few other things. FA is healthy by mere chance. The Pro series obsoleted their engines and chassis making a bunch of them available at a relatively low cost. FSCCA is falsely boosting the numbers. Zetecs also boost the numbers. Let's not credit anyone at the SCCA for good FA numbers. Plus, I said I appreciate the inflated FA numbers in my last post.

And last, I am not all that dissastisfied. I just don't like the way the SCCA handles car classification. Especially with the open wheels and sports racers. We've seen many cases where the SCCA bowed to special interests faster than Al Gore at a UFCW rally. I also don't like the number of classes we have. It is too many. I'm certainly not alone on this. And I don't have to be on the BOD or volunteer as a steward in order to say so.

[Dave Belz]

And, BTW, which FC can you buy new with a zero-time national-class engine for $40K?

You could buy the FSCCA that you started looking for... It would be a lot closer to FC performance than any SM would be. As for perceived benefits, it's worth an awful lot to me NOT to be in the same group as 30 Jeff Gordon/Tony Stewart/JPM wannabees in a bunch of nearly indestructable tanks.

Dave

[Larry]

It's not as hard as it would seem. To determine the health of a class, look at the number of chassis being produced. Other than one or two custom-ordered chassis, there is no new FF production. NO factory building cars. FC Pintos are in the same situation, but at least they have opened up their rules somewhat to allow a different engine.

When Miatas are being produced by the 10s of thousands, inexpensive chassis are available for the club racer--as are engines and parts. It doesn't take weeks or months to find a rear upright for a car that was last produced in 1976, and the price usually reflects the benefits or large-scale production.

I'm a formula-caar guy, and I will always be one. It's not a logical choice, but it's my choice because I love the cars. Unfortunately, both FC and FF aren't healthy right now. They're old, and unless there are changes, they will continue to diminish...not unlike HProd Sprites. The HP class was "saved" when they let in a clearly non-production sedan, and then continued to open the class. We need to start making some changes before they think about letting a sedan into the formula-car groups. (I know, it can't happen, but you can get the idea).

Larry Oliver

[David Cox]

Normally I don't post here, but this hits close to home for me. I race a SM, but have worked on formula cars and sports racers at all levels. The reason I built the SM was initial cost. When you can build and race a SM for roughly $9000 (at the regional level) and then run a full season (~10 races) on one set of tires, brakes etc., it's almost impossible to compare the budget that it would cost to run a FF, CFF, or a FC for the same amount of track time.

The start of this post was getting Formula car numbers up. The reason I race in SM and have not moved to another class (and I would like to move to formula car) is because no matter where I am in the field on any given day I almost always have some one to run with. Over the last few years of all of the races I have worked with teams (~50) I can count the number of races, that my driver has changed positions multiple times during the race(without a spin), on both hands at best. Also, on my enduro team I have 2 other Formula car drivers that love driving the Miata because of that competition and they don't seem to think the cars are pigs.

A lot of us race for the competition and it has been said here before, but if you are in a one or two car class when does that become boring? And how long before you leave that class or SCCA all together? I think that we all need to learn something from the newer classes that have come in and been successful, and start applying that to those classes we want to work to keep. Things like tire rules, lower cost engines and rebuilds (or longer lasting i.e. the zetec), and as Larry said make it more advantageous for new cars. If the formula car classes can become as competitive as the SM more people will start to move in that direction, but right now the haves and have not's are too spread out, and the availability of cars is too little.

Flame away, but this is the view from one of those neophyte, crash 'em up SM, drivers.

[M.L.Sauce]

Mr. Le Cain- I don't want you to confuse the get involved speech with shut up if you don't like the way things are run. I am a racer.I build cars,drive them ,design them and build parts for them.It is very important to me where all this ends up.I personally don't care about door cars no matter how cheap they are.I believe it does not matter what you drive there is a certain cost of winning or being competitive.The SM comment is on target for regional competition but if want to win it cost more for a Nationally competitive motor for SM than it does for a FF or FC.Why is that?It is because popularity of the class makes the cost of being competitive go up.It is inevitable.FA numbers are up because of many factors.In my Division the Pro MAzda dealer here has done a very good job of getting those guys to run Nationals. We have had as many as 10 at one event.We only have 1 or 2 real Atlantics.Everyone at every level is looking for a lower cost equation for the classes and that means we either add cars here in one class to help the numbers or watch the class die.The CRB wrote a table for allowing many different cars to run in FA.I thought that was a positive thing I don't think we have seen much increase in numbers from it but at least they were looking at the health of your class.Every thing the SCCA does is not a partisant production to serve the few who make those rules.It is our responsibility as the representatives of our members to bring about changes that the members feel are necessary as well as be aware of the direction motorsports in general is headed.I want a more transparent and up front club and that is what I have been working toward. Don't shut up, get involved in some way and help us to lead this club into the future so that our members will be able to enjoy the activities this club can offer and also to offer a direction for the club's future.I wish more drivers would support the club with their insight in addition to their entry fees.

[EYERACE]

Mr. Oliver - you are in a position to know better than eye - thanks for the info.

I had a fellow years ago say to me [as he watched me make slow and steady changes monthly to an old MG that i autocrossed monthly against his bathtub porsche....and the time gap by which he won grew smaller and smaller] ....."it's about a thousand dollars a second, now how fast do you want to go?"

ok so for what can be a smaller budget than FF i can SM......no thank you

at the National level, if a given class gets cut out for low numbers, those cars will become plentiful at the Regional level as their sale prices drop and the class will continue to exist regionally....and.....that class will become eventually a regional only class??.....so that those cars would now appear at the ARRC race for a Championship rather than at Runoffs for a Championship? Cars will survive. The class will sort of survive unless killed or banned...........like the non-Ford Spec racers.......like GT4 or GT5 became GTL. The ARRC will survive......perhaps adding classes as the National level drops classes BECAUSE THEY KEEP INVENTING TOO MANY

[Stan Clayton]

Here are the data through 61 of 65 races. I have been working directly with Terry Ozment, Director of Club Racing, and these numbers are as accurate as we can make them, based on final official results. My thanks and salute to Terry and her crew! Stan

SM 1449
SRF 1222
FV 545
FA 427
FC 405
EP 386
FM 374
GT1 368
FF 367
FP 314
DSR 308
T2 290
AS 268
SSC 259
T1 248
SSB 241
GT2 233
GP 218
CSR 205
F5 199
HP 196
GT3 192
S2 190
GTL 151
T3 146

[J Mabee]

Hey Stan,
Do you have a further breakdown for FSCCA? Wondering what our numbers are like.
Thanks!

[Jim Garry]

Three perhaps unconnected observations/comments:

1. Do not underestimate the reticence of drivers to get into open wheeled cars. Something like half the racers I've spoken to (who are not now in open wheeled cars) say they wouldn't drive them because of real or imagined dangers compared to tin tops.

2. To increase car counts per race, reduce the number of races available. Oh, but that would cut into a Region's ability to make money. But it would also reduce worker burnout.

3. Someone else made this comment on this thread: Reduce the number of classes.
This was attempted by an SCCA VP some years ago with the result that SCCA membership rode him out of town on a rail. But it is necessary. Instead, we keep adding classes. Same with Solo.


Jim

[Stan Clayton]

No, Jason, I do not have any specific FSCCA data...sorry.

Stan

PS - If I can squeeze in the time, I will see what I can do, though.