F1000 Rules Proposal

[JEREMY HILL]

sorry stan, i should have specified 2005 crb idiots!!!, cheers jeremy

[carnut169]

Perhaps for the older cars 950.... newer cars 1000?

[Marshall Mauney]

Perhaps for the older cars 950.... newer cars 1000?

Why?

Heavier is not better - more weight puts more stress on the chassis, wheels/hubs, uprights, etc., making failure more likely (and design more critical). Weight doesn't affect top speed (this is drag-limited), so a lighter car isn't less safe (assuming it is crash-worthy) - but it handles better.

The only good reason to add weight to a formula car is to equalize in order to avoid giving a lightweight driver an unfair advantage.

[preform resources]

Don't worry Marshall ,there won't be any ex or modified F-500 cars in this deal .
Dave Craddock

[Marshall Mauney]

Don't worry Marshall ,there won't be any ex or modified F-500 cars in this deal .
Dave Craddock

I didn't say there would be, nor that there should - at least not in F1000. I used to drive FF, too, ya know.......

[carnut169]

Why?

Heavier is not better - more weight puts more stress on the chassis, wheels/hubs, uprights, etc., making failure more likely (and design more critical). Weight doesn't affect top speed (this is drag-limited), so a lighter car isn't less safe (assuming it is crash-worthy) - but it handles better.

The only good reason to add weight to a formula car is to equalize in order to avoid giving a lightweight driver an unfair advantage.

Why would you give older cars a weight advantage? Really?
I guess b/c for the most part they have older suspension designs, less aero, etc. I'd give them 50lbs to encourage guys w/ CFCs to convert....

I know weight is bad... but based on the new VD 1000 (850lbs) and mine (850lbs) I'm guessing that the newer cars will just weigh that once converted.

Further, I would argue that weight DOES affect top speed... perhaps not ultimately, but given the distance restraints at most of our tracks a lighter car will get up to speed faster and should be going faster when that turn comes up.

Remember- this class will have all sorts of makes/ models/ years. You think a 2004 VD should weigh the same as an 84? Would they be competitive if they had the same weight?

[Stan Clayton]

Sean,

Some of the new designs are quite a bit lighter than your car. For instance, both the (old and new) Stohr and Phoenix DSRs are under 800 lbs with full DSR bodywork. In their F1k versions they won't be any heavier. And since the old m/c FC standard was 930 lbs, I see no compelling reason to up it from there. I mean, if that was good enough last year, why won't it be next year?

Stan

[carnut169]

I don't have a problem w/ that weight for the older mc powered FCs. Look at Hill... he was running with (not away from) current National FCs at 1190lbs!

All I am saying is that for the guys with older cars to be competitive against the newer cars they will need some help.

Perhaps a car that fits (or would have) in CFC should be allowed to run at 930-950 and current designs (96 and up?) could be at 1000. Wouldn't that solve the CF tub debate? Build it if you want, but it still has to weigh 1000lbs. 96- current cars are equal, 95 back cars have a slight weight advantage to compensate for aged suspension design and aero disadvantages. If someone converts a DB6 (doubt that would happen) and runs away from the field we could address that particular model w/ a competition adjustment up to the 1000lb newer models.

Am I crazy?

[RussMcB]

Am I crazy?

Yes, but let's don't hijack this thread to go into that.

[Stan Clayton]

No Sean, I'm not saying you are crazy...but you are a racer, after all!

Seriously though, I appreciate this discussion of the weight question, because what we eventually decide is going to go a long ways toward determining how quickly this class can grow.

Numerous persons have argued that we are essentially reviving the m/c powered FC concept and that its rules should be the starting point for F-1000 rules. Given that, the old minimum weight was 930 lbs...and that was with ferrous calipers.

OTOH, if Van Diemen and others cannot bring a car in at that weight because they've chosen to use wider sidepods, big wings and fat tires, I don't see that as a compelling reason to force others to meet their weight. I mean, it's not like we are going to line up all the proposed cars, weigh them and then force everyone to add lead to get up to the heaviest weight. I know I'm crazy, but this approach doesn't make sense to me.

Cars whose design exceeds FC dimensions are naturally going to weigh more than those which do not. The question in my mind is do we chose an arbitrarily higher minimum weight for those cars, or just let nature take its course? That way we leave in the rules an incentive to build smaller, lighter, simpler cars while permitting larger, heavier cars.

Regards, Stan Clayton

[JEREMY HILL]

my photon actually has very light (and cheap) wilwood calipers , regards jeremy

[Gerry Dedonis]

Stan,
Would something similar to this car be acceptable in an F1000 class?

http://www.stratotech.ca/arco.html

TECHNICAL DETAILS...

CHASSIS: Cro-moly tube spaceframe, with aluminium panels riveted and glued to frame.

SUSPENSIONS: Front suspension configuration consists of two upright coils over shocks with pull-rods. The rear suspension design consists of two horizontal coils over shocks with push rods. Both front and back have 12 adjustment settings.

BRAKES: (2) Front discs 10.63" (270 mm) diameter by .45" (11.5 mm) thick, single rear ventilated disc 9.45" (240 mm) diameter by .85" (21.5 mm) thick, 4 pistons calipers.

ENGINE: YAMAHA YZF IOOO cc, 4 cylinder, 4 stroke, 20 valves. Forced lubrication system with oil cooler. Water-cooled. 1.5” (38 mm) MIKUNI carburetors.

GEARBOX: 5 speed sequential.

POWERTRAIN: Chain with sprockets + reverse gear (Arcobaleno), 4 available different rear sprocket ratios for maximum velocity from 165 to 230 Km/h. (Ratio: 13/42, 14/38, 14/40, 17/39)

MAXIMUM POWER: 148 HP at 10,000 rpm.

ELECTRONIC IGNITION: Rainbow Spark by Pegaso, with a programmable intrusion-proof rpm limiting device. (8,000 to 12,000 rpm)

CAR CHARACTERISTICS:

WHEEL BASE: 88.60' (2250 mm)
FRONT TRACK: 55.12' (1400 mm)
REAR TRACK: 53.35' (1355 mm)
MIN GROUND CLEARANCE: 1.77' (45 mm)
MAX HEIGHT: 43.31' (111O mm)
OVERALL LENGTH: 139.76' (3550 mm)
OVERALL WIDTH: 63.00' (1600 mm)
WEIGHT: 815.73 lb (370 Kg)
WHEELS: magnesium 6.5' x 1'(165 mm x 25 mm) front 8' X 13' (203 mm x 330 mm) rear
TIRES: AVON 6.0' x 19.5' x 13' front (152 mm x 495 mm x 330 mm) front 8' X 19.5' X 13' (152 mm x 495 mm x 330 mm) rear
ADJUSTABLE WINGS: Front and rear wings already low velocity operation.

Gerry Dedonis

[Stan Clayton]

Gerry, I honestly can't say, since there is inadequate info about the frame. I'm sure that if you contact Jeremy Thoennes at Technical Services (800-770-2055) he can help you evaluate the car. Stan

[carnut169]

I'd go out on a limb and say yes.... (since the question if something similiar would fit, not if this car would fit).

[Gerry Dedonis]

[size=2]Thank you for your replies![/size]

[size=2]I really like the concept of having an affordable open-wheel class with a minimum of adjustments using a car priced under $25 thousand dollars. It appears the F1000 car or a new FF1600 using a modern engine would fall into that category. [/size][size=2]The other classes are beyond the scope of my income. With the volume of posts in this and other forums, I suspect many other racers or would-be racers have a similar thought.[/size]

[size=2]I found the Arcobeleno car merely by chance. However, I could not locate the name and location of the chassis builder.[/size]

[size=2]Gerry Dedonis [/size]

[Stan Clayton]

Gerry, the main roll hoop must be minimum 1 3/8" diameter and be bent with a minimum radius of 3 times the diameter. There are also forward brace requirements to be met, and this car appears to be problematical in all three respects. That why I suggest you engage with Jeremy before spending any money on one of them.

The concept appears great, though!

Stan

[Gerry Dedonis]

Gerry, the main roll hoop must be minimum 1 3/8" diameter and be bent with a minimum radius of 3 times the diameter. There are also forward brace requirements to be met, and this car appears to be problematical in all three respects. That why I suggest you engage with Jeremy before spending any money on one of them.

The concept appears great, though!

Stan

[size=2]No money spent yet. I'm going to watch the processes to see the best option for me. [/size]

[size=2]Separate question here...[/size]
[size=2]Is there any thought to having a retro-appearing front engine/rear drive racer? They could copy the earlier days of road racing similar to what has been done with Legends cars copying vintage Jalopy racers. [/size]

[size=2]Perhaps this topic might deserve it's own discussion thread? [/size]

[size=2]Gerry Dedonis[/size]

[Matt Conrad]

Wow. This is probably the best racing thread going on the entire Internet right now. Sorry it's taken me so long to visit/post. So many people have posted so many thoughts, opinions and ideas, I don't even know where to start....but here goes....

First Off. We build the Phoenix (formerly Maloy) DSR and CSR. Our car would be ideal for the F1000 class and I have had some interest in this idea for some time now.

1. Weight. I've always liked 1000cc and 1000#. Even though lighter drivers would likely need balast in some cars (probably ours too), I like the feel of 1000 and 1000.
2. Width. I like the wider sidepods for safety and for additional cooling area.
3. Engines. 1000cc max. Period. Not to be too oversimplistic, but there really isn't much you can do to these things...the power from my "almost stock" backup motor is only 25hp less than my fully built one (GSX-R1000).
4. Chassis. I like the safety of the carbon monocoque chassis, but the cost to build and repair these for a club racer should put this option "off the table" for now.
5. Open Wheel Racing. The fracture of open-wheeled racing into dozens of different classes is really starting to hurt. And it starts with IRL/Champ Car and goes all the way to the bottom. I got out of FC because I thought the class was getting ready to implode. Just look at the F2000 Pro Series....this group used to draw 40+ cars, had a TV deal, ran as support races to Indy Car, and was a genuine stepping stone to Formula Atlantic and beyond. Now, the series is fractured into a West Coast Series, a new East Coast deal, and the original deal sponsored by Cooper Tires. No TV, No big names. No Future.
6. Costs. I'm torn here...as a manufacturer of xSR's, I know what it costs to build a competitive car and it just isn't getting any cheaper as the prices for everything continue to climb. Truthfully, I haven't put a pen to paper yet on some estimated costs for us to build an F1000 car, but I can tell you it won't be $35,000. On the other hand, I think that is where the market is for a new class like this....at least initially.
7. Home Built vs. Purpose Built (manufactured). I admire the guy (or gal) who decides to take on the task of building a car themselves. I understand it completely. It's a big part of what club racing is (maybe was) all about! I think F1000 is a perfect place for the hundreds of older FC cars that aren't competitive or can't be converted to the Zetec. I know it'll take some years to get the numbers up, but I'm not sure that the class will ever BUILD if there's just a whole bunch of manufacturers clammoring for more car sales.
8. Rules. I'm also in favor of limiting the rules as much as possible, but let's be realistic here. No rules is not the way to go either.

Enough for now. Great Discussion. Hope it stays "sane" and we can all agree on a good set of rules to get this thing off the ground.

Matt Conrad
Phoenix Race Cars, Inc.

[Lee Stohr]

The latest Sports Car magazine has the breakdown of most popular SCCA Classes.
Spec Racer Ford and FV are tops. Then comes FC and FA, very closely matched.
Formula Ford is down the list, and F500 is way down.
So the most expensive class, Formula Atlantic, is more popular than the 'cheaper' classes like FF and F5.
Tells me that people want to run FA, and if a bike engined formula car matched FA performance at lower cost, there you'd have a big market. I think that might make business sense for a manufacturer. An entry level car just doesn't.

[carnut169]

FA numbers do not reflect what is really happening.

FSCCA, Pro-Mazda, Toyota Atlantics are all grouped in FA....

[R. Pare]

To keep quoting FA numbers is not dealing with reality - FA is now a catch-all class with cars from all spectrums of the financial scale, with the majority nearer the low end rather than the high end.

What it DOES show, however, is that there is a market for something besides the traditional ones.

[Matt Conrad]

I concur with the FA numbers being skewed by the addition of the Zetec, Star Mazda, and the FSCCA car. Try looking up some race results and you'll see the truth. For example, at the Phoenix Double National last month here's the FA starters:

1. 4 True FA's (3 Swifts and 1 Ralt).
2. 3 Star Mazda's
3. 2 Zetec's
4. 1 FSCCA

Four true FA's at one of the Southwest's most attended events is pathetic, let alone weak. And with the "Pro Atlantic" group going to a new spec car and engine, I think this will get worse. Yes, some of these old Pro cars will end up in club racing as FA's or CSR's, but the facts are that it costs a bundle of money to go race these things.

Matt Conrad
Phoenix Race Cars, Inc.

[Matt Conrad]

So.....I thought about this alot last night and even started to come up with some loose numbers for the costs to build an F1000 car. Here's my take in a nutshell...

Even though we build a car that I'm confident would be a front-runner in F1000 trim, I think I would rather see this class as an entry-level, and low-cost, class. That's what's missing in SCCA right now. Don't believe me.....Look at what's happening with Spec Miata. There were 42 entries at the Phoenix Race....in a brand new class with rules issues up the wazoo!

Now look at the new car costs in some of the formula/sports racer classes that used to be somewhat affordable. $65K for a FC. $68K for a Stohr DSR ROLLER. $80K for a new FM. It's one thing to spend this kind of money on a Pro Series car where you may have some TV, sponsors, etc., but for Club Racing? The pot is not that big that we're drawing from guys.

Sooner or later, some current classes are going to be combined/eliminated because National participation numbers are going to continue to drop as racers start to look at "other options" to spend their racing dollar.

As Dennis Miller used to say "it's just my opinion, I could be wrong".

Matt Conrad
Phoenix Race Cars, Inc.

[RussMcB]

Four true FA's at one of the Southwest's most attended events is pathetic, let alone weak.

Matt, if I'm looking at the correct race results, those four "true" FA's was about the same number as several other classes (FC, FF, CSR) and better than others (DSR & S2). So, if I'm not mistaken, by your count there are a lot of pathetic classes and you've singled out FA.

[preform resources]

I think that was precisely Matts point,there are a lot of high dollar car classes that are not well subscribed ,why start another high buck class when there are a lot of potential conversion cars out there,as I said before soon enough the the rules will get more liberal and then all bets are off,meanwhile at least things may get off the ground.
Dave Craddock

[Lee Stohr]

The SCCA has members of widely varying financial means, all with the same love of road racing.
But face it, the guys who buy new cars have made some money. There is no limit to that demographic, they will come and race SCCA if there are well-made, hi-performance cars available that provide reasonable bang for the buck. In my opinion, an old fashioned tube frame car with a bike engine and lots of rules will not attract the new car buyer.

No manufacturer can stay in business selling cars for $30,000. I can tell you that the parts cost more than that. If you can get a new car for that, good for you - but the manufacturer probably won't be around long.

[jonbaytos]

Lee, I doubt that you believe what you are saying is true.You are a very smart man and have been around this for a long time.The market research that you desire is all around you.Can you honestly say that you think there are more folks with sixty to spend, than thirty?There are lot of factors that people consider before buying a racing car new or used, and the main one is some reasonable amount of security in there investment.IE SPEC Chassis.or at the very least frozen.This thing Formula 1000 I think has a lot of potential,but not as a open, spend all you can, update every 6 months, 50% depreciation every 12, gone in 2 class.Steve Lathrop and I were having a chat at the Runoffs a couple of years ago and he had a concept that included constructors sharing components maybe this should be looked at as a way to get to the 30 mark? Van Diemen has been around for over 30 years building some very good 30,000.00 racing cars.Matt is right, there are enough big money rides at the moment.

[carnut169]

[size=2]Can someone w/ some pull (Lee, Brad, Matt...?) PLEASE get Suzuki (preferably) to start selling us crate motors?? Why they don't is completely beyond me. Suzuki clearly "got" the notion of a bike-powered formula car as they built one themselves! What better publicity could they get... motors strong enough to power cars that can smash $100,000 exotics. [/size]

[size=2]This could be a wonderful start to minimize costs/ eliminate motor of the year scenario.[/size]
[size=2][/size]
[size=2]I've said it before, and here it is again- the thing that gets people all excited about F1000 is the cost vs. performance. Let the guys w/ unlimited $$ buy an Atlantic or the new Stohr DSR (or a pro-Mazda, or ???) and have at it. We are talking about building a class for guys w/ low FC or CFC budgets! Yes, your RF93 can be competitive! It will run w/ the new FCs! Yes, you can buy a junkyard motor for $1500 and race for an entire season- perhaps 2+! Yes, you can buy a set of 8s & 10s and race for 3+ weekends on them! Why muddy the waters with a $70,000 Stohr F1000? (no offence Lee- you've got some bad-a$$ cars that I would love to own). To the guys w/ unlimited $$ that want to get into F1000 I would say buy a new VD1000 and beat us w/ your skill & not your $$. If you have to spend that, buy 2 cars![/size]
[size=2][/size]
[size=2][/size]

[RobLav]

Also, it'd be nice to have the Kawasaki ZX10R. Kawasaki used to sell crate ZX-9R engines at very reasonable cost through Muzzy's. Maybe they would do the same for the ZX10R.

Agree with Sean - Anybody have some pull?

[RobLav]

Here is a link to Muzzy's:

http://www.muzzys.com/71200-1094-LF/

This is a link to a ZX-12R crate engine. $4995. Maybe we can get ZX-10R crate engines at a decent cost for a minimum order quantity.

[jonbaytos]

We have a supply of crate GSXR's at Elan that are being fitted to the new DP-04.And West have a supply of crate ZX-10's from Kawasaki.The new IMSA Lites Series will use only stock sealed engines fom 07' onward.What's the next problem? Jon B

[carnut169]

What is the cost of the stock crate GSXR?

[Stan Clayton]

I was hoping we could avoid repeating the ad nauseum "you've got more money than me" arguments. Short of a spec car from a single supplier there is no practical way to enforce a price cap. I know that there are those who would love to have a captive audience by winning a single-source contract for cars, but I don't think there's broad support for that approach.

OTOH, pricing will largely take care of itself if we write the correct set of rules. One way to do that may be to have a 930 lbs minimum weight for cars complying with FC dimensions, and 1000 lbs for those exceeding them. Thus bigger, more complex cars will have a built-in weight disadvantage to offset their presumed performance potential advantage.

Another potential equalizer is the Single Intake Restrictor. George Dean recently donated some dyno time to test a rudimentary SIR on a 180-ish-hp-at-the-rear-wheels-DSR. He taped over the intake snorkle incrementally until he got down to a square opening less than an inch across. The ECU took it all in stride until the hole got down to that size, when peak power (12,000-ish RPM) began fluxuating several hp. George thinks the cause of the hp fluxuation was turbulence in the airbox induced by the thin, flexible duct-tape "SIR". He was quite surprised at how effective the SIR was and how well the ECU coped with it, especially under the crude conditions of the 'test'. Next I hope to find a 'real' SIR for him to try. George did caution that although an SIR will effectively cap hp, it will not by itself prevent people spending money in search of small performance advantages. We may just have to live with that.

Regards, Stan Clayton

[preform resources]

Stan,talk to Dave Finch at Raetech 734-665-2215 he's been developing the SIR's for the GT classes

Dave Craddock

[Stan Clayton]

Thanks Dave. We already have an on-going discussion with Dave Finch, who has done a tremendous amount of pro bono SIR development work for the Club.

If you are reading this, Dave, Thanks!

Stan

PS - George's quickie test was a "Hey Stan, I gotta motor on the dyno - how to I make an SIR?" phone call kind'a thing. We'll get him a real one as soon as practical.

[Lee Stohr]

I didn't say there are more people with $60K than $30K, I said you can't sell new race cars for $30K. Elan / Van Diemen don't have anything in that price range, do they? Aren't their new sports racers over $50K?

[carnut169]

I was hoping we could avoid repeating the ad nauseum "you've got more money than me" arguments. Short of a spec car from a single supplier there is no practical way to enforce a price cap. I know that there are those who would love to have a captive audience by winning a single-source contract for cars, but I don't think there's broad support for that approach.

Who is having this arguement?

Who is suggesting a price cap or single supplier? Not me. Did I miss someone suggesting that?

Is there a problem w/ a class who's philosophy is creating a car that can be both fast and affordable? Don't you agree that the idea of F1000 is exciting because of the relationship between cost and performance?

IMHO- If you have an Atlantic and want to build a money is no object formula car- go ahead! You have a place to race... FS. Knock yourself out. If you have a mid 90's continental and want to have a competitive car... F1000. If you have a Speads, Gloria, VD1000, or (??) F1000 may also be the place for you....

930lbs? Thats great. All of the converted cars w/ 80lb drivers will be able to meet min weight, and the new cars will come in at 930 and smoke both the converted cars and the old mc powered FCs. That should be good for the class.

Seems like when I 1st suggested 1000lbs the majority of posters thought it was a good idea... what is wrong w/ that?

[jonbaytos]

[size=2]I'm sorry I misunderstood.Yes we do have something 30,000.00 range as a roller.I thought that is what we were talking about.Remember the FSCCA was originally proposed at just over 20,000.00 complete.So yes it can be done if one is careful. Jon B[/size]

[Stan Clayton]

Sean, I was not pointing fingers at you, but rather at the bickering on the previous page.

My point remains that a correct set of rules will constrain costs. I mentioned the existing FC minimum weight standard as a possible starting point. If the collective group wants 1000 lbs, I don't object.

But let me ask you this. Do you want mid-90's FCs to have to run heads-up weight wise against new VDs, Phoenixs, Carbirs, Stohrs, etc., or do you think older cars that conform to FC dimensions should have some sort of 'competition adjustment'?

Stan

[Dennis McCarthy]

Jon,

What is the lowest dollar amount you think would be feasible to put a complete formula car out for?
Not a hi tech whizzy car with all of the bells and whistles just a simple good solid car with wings.