F1000 Rules Proposal

[Lee Stohr]

The demographics of the F1000 customer is for sure the issue. If I was smart enough to know the answer, I'd be a Bernie Eccelestone, I suppose !
I'm not sure if the DSR demographics will work in open wheel, F1000. But it might.
What we have in DSR are 'mini' Lemans sports racers with no rules. The quality and technology in the DSR's is like a real Audi or Porsche LeMans car. It's an exciting class to be invoved in - new cars, engines, technology are coming out every week.
F1000 could be like that, it could be a 'mini' Formula 1 car. That would separate F1000 from all the other spec classes and old technology classes. I think F1000 won't succeed if it doesn't stand out big time from all the dozens of other open wheel classes. F1000 will be competing against heavily subsidized open wheel classes, and it has to have something special to stand out. Limiting technology in F1000 may doom the class. Just my thought, I could be wrong.

[Purple Frog]

As much as I know it will prohibit me from seriously playing ** in this class.... I agree with Lee. The less rules the better. Innovation being the rule. Free market economics. Keep it in the spirit of DSR and watch the fun begin.


** note: at 57, with an already proven track record of being a back-marker, and a budget smaller than unemployed surfer, who would I be kidding if I said I seriously played in any motorsports activity?

[R. Pare]

Clayton:

You contradict yourself.

First you state that you can't expect anyone to build a turn-key car for $35k, then you say that Brian is willing to do one in the mid-30's.

Which is it?

Cars CAN be built to the FC spec and sold for $35k. There obviously are a lot of 'ifs" to that statement, with the main ones being the chassis spec, the quality of the components being used (what shocks, etc), where it is built, and who builds it.

The rear end assembly of an FC (engine, bellhousing, tranny) currently costs about $20-25k - a huge chunk of the manufacturing cost. If you went the Duratec engine route like the FSCCA car, drop out about $5k+ from that cost (part of the equation for the FSCCA car cost). If you build an MC car, the cost will drop to less than $10k, with the majority of the cost being the engine. That a minimum $10k cost difference right there from what we used to build here.

If the car is spec'd with an open diff (if it is found to be viable), the diff cost can drop by $500 easily.

If you allow carbon tubs, expect the cost to go up by at least 10k, and that for tubs built pretty cheap (ie - nothing I would plant my butt in!).



You also state that only 2 cars have been built to this spec ( quazi FC) in the last 2 years, which is probably true as far as completed cars go, yet other posters state that they already have cars under construction, based on their perception of this being a more economical class than what's already available.

The rest of your post is BS, all right!

NO ONE has stated that the class should be based solely on home-builts. That will never happen. However, does it make any sense to design a class, given the demographics of whom we are supposedly trying to reach out to, to design a set of rules that patently excludes the majority of home builders from the very outset?

Who exactly do you think is going to build up the cars in this class to the numbers that will entice the constructors to give it a go?

If the spec is such that the cars will cost 50-60k or more turn-key, who as a manufacturer will want to step up and shell out the half mil it will take to get production started on a class that doesn't exist yet?

Someone MIGHT, but only if he recieved non-refundable deposits for 30 cars.

If you truely want to see costs escalate to the $100k figure, by all means allow carbon tubs, free aero, and so on. They may be interesting cars to contemplate, but how long will that last?

You need to make up your mind as to whom you are trying to reach with this proposal. If it is the guys that I personally think are in the majority in the Club, both now and in the future, then the construction costs have to be kept in check. If it is for the well-heeled, then the almost-anything-goes route is the ticket.

The only rhetorical gambits is see so far are yours!

[Marshall Mauney]

Who exactly do you think is going to build up the cars in this class to the numbers that will entice the constructors to give it a go?

If the spec is such that the cars will cost 50-60k or more turn-key, who as a manufacturer will want to step up and shell out the half mil it will take to get production started on a class that doesn't exist yet?

Hmmm.... Look at who's taken an interest in this proposal.

Lee Stohr wouldn't be wasting time here just because he has nothing else to do......

The fact is that EVERYONE knows that the engine/tranny situation in FF/FC is unsustainable. Lee, how many FFs did you sell? It certainly looked like a pretty hot design (I still think it's one of the best-looking FFs ever built), and acquitted itself well against the competition, but..... Change the bodywork and put in a cheaper, higher power engine and look what happened!

If you submit a request to create F1000 in this club, and it's running in the general performance range of FF/FC, you can bet that it will IMMEDIATELY get tons of attention, because everyone knows we need something like this. Just look what's happened right here on this board - nobody would be getting involved if they didn't see potential in the concept.

Personally, I don't know why nobody has looked at doing the same thing with FF chassis' and 600cc bike engines - it would be a natural. It has been discussed in F500 - personally, I would jump on this, but the majority of the class members get downright hostile over the idea, and shout down discussion on the boards whenever it starts.

Bottom line: If this concept gets officially proposed, you can bet on two things. 1) The proposal will get 'tweaked' to accomodate the builder(s) who step(s) up to the board to express interest, and 2) the proposal will immediately be compared to the existing MC-based cars running in other countries (Gloria et al) that could be imported and run. From a whole-club standpoint, these are good things, although the originators of the concept may not like the idea that their idea has been 'hijacked'.

It may already have been hijacked.......

[S Lathrop]

The fact that we haven't build a new car in 11 years may explain more about the car market than our failure as a car building company. If you look at the run offs, our cars have been competitive in both FF and FC each of the last 11 years. Our customer base has not expanded over the years. That is also ture for the classes we serve.

Look at all the versions of Van Diemen that have taken a run at us. The truth is that if you brought a 94 Citation to me it would cost $10,000 to bring the design current. We have been fortunate that we have not had to build cars to keep the parts business.

Personally I think Marshall's suggestion for 600cc class aimed more at FF performance is really what is needed. That would be a ture entry level class. My support for the F1000 is because I see it as a first step. Having two classes based on the same car really is attractive to builders.

I ask Stan and Lee if we go with your rules how do we compete with the other formulas in that price range? Look at where the numbers are in club racing FV, F500, FF, and FC, plus off shoots of those classes. That is your demographics. The trick is to design a class that 10% to 20% of racers and potential racers in those classes will look to buy new cars. FA has never been a big class in club racing and that is the type of car you are advocating.

Stan, you are wrong about tube frame technology being 40 years old. It has its roots in aviation dating back to the 1920's. Practically every aerobatic plane built today uses a steel tube fuselage because it has a better weight to strength ratio. The Lola T97 Indy Lights car used wood in that chassis. The quality of a car is more the engineering effort that goes into the design and construction than what you choose to build it out of. I had this same argument with Paul White in the 80's about aluminum monocoques. They were stronger than tube structures but they were not even close to being as durable. As such we were wise not to change to aluminum monocoque construction for FF, no FC then.

I also do a lot with crew shells. Those are carbon composites. They stay together for years. But they de-laminate after a few years. Once they start to delaminate the performance of the boat deteroriates significantly. It looks good and still floats but it doesn't go fast any more.

When we build race cars for club racing we need to think of what the car will be like in 20 years. With the continuous advance in tires the old cars are being stressed well beyond the original design. In the '70's you never expected a FF to do more than 1g in a corner. Today they can do 1.8g and sustain it. (peak g's for turn 1 at MO). The tube structures are much easier to repair and modify to deal with increasing loads. We need to stay with that technology!


Steve Lathrop

[preform resources]

Steve ,I pretty much agree with what you and Richard are saying.this excersize will never get off the ground if it's not affordable and will not support many newly built cars,as in DSR the home builders will get this class established and then the new car guys will come in and more liberal rules no doubt,ther are too many existing classes for cars that cost in excess of 50 grand to do a startup class now with specs that demand you build a state of the art no holds barred chassis.
just my opinion..........
Dave Craddock

[Sean Maisey]

I think there may be room for all three designs being proposed here...

Marshall's idea of a 600cc car in the tradition on FF is a good one. Some guys in Canada have been at this for years, calling it F4. With the untenable motor situation in FF maybe a F600 class would garner some real interest. Keep the rules like FF (tube frame, no wings, small tires) and you would potentially have a cheap class that would have all of the FSAE guys drooling. Target prices at current F500 level or very slightly higher - $20,000.

I personally am interested in a F1000 class that tries to limit investment. Basically FC like chassis rules, with limited track and wheelbase to keep chassis from going obsolete all the time. Allow wider sidepods to allow Speads/Jedi/Gloria/OMS cars to compete too. Maybe allow 8/10" wheels to reduce tire wear, but keep the bottoms flat. Consider a "gentlemen's agreement" to run stock production motors only (with mods for dry sump/exhaust type stuff. Target price at 'volume' SCCA racer market - under $30,000.

Finally to placate the 'no rules' crowd. Allow a FA like chassis wiith bike motors prepared to the current CSR rules (up to 1500cc). This could be a carbon tub/tunnels car that truely kicks the @ss of cars like FBMW. For the "uber racer" that has money to burn on his/her club racing. Target price - Well if you have to ask...

Sean

[Sean Maisey]

A further explanation of why I chose the price points above...

In discussions about new car acquistion with a bunch of my SCCA buddies, we came up with some interesting facts. First and foremost is that out of us all (7 racers in all), no one has ever bough a car for much more than $25,000. In fact, I think the $30,000 I paid for my Zetec a couple of years ago was about tops. Looking at the Apexspeed.com classifieds and the latest SportsCar also supports this natural price support point.

The sales of new FF/FC/FSCCA cars have all tanked once the cars rose over $30,000. When cars are offered below this point they sell briskly. In 1998 Van Diemen ran a special on their FF @$25,000 and sold 60-70 cars. FSCCA sold 100 cars the first year at $27,000, but almost none since (I realize there were other factors, but the price is key).

Now some might argue that Lee Stohr has sold a bunch of cars lately at figures much higher, but I would assert that Lee pioneered a new market. He found the guys running Ferrari/Porsche/BMW cars at track days and showed them a way to go much faster for less money while relieving the stress of messing up a very expensive street car. To these guys $60-70,000 for a track toy is no big deal. I do not think a similar group of potential open wheel drivers exists.

So to summarize my theory, I think a $25,000-$30,000 car that promises long engine life, limited obsolescence, and a high tech powertrain and gear box would sell like hot cakes. Add to this a rule set that makes it attractive to convert older FC cars, and you have a real recipe for success.

Sean

[R. Pare]

Sean:

You proposals are almost exactly what Steve and I have been talking about to anyone who would listen for a couple of years!

The Club will not survive - at least the Formula car portion - if costs continue to escalate. For the most part, the sale of cars that are above the $35000 mark have ceased, and the older used cars have become much more valuable because of the demand for cheaper cars.

The FF guys will never change from what I can see. So be it. A 600cc car based on the FF rules would be a real head turner and should easily sell for under $30000 (and possibly a lot less) when built in decent batches. The only change I'd make to the FF rules would be to allow 6 & 8 inch rims to get away from those rediculous cantelevered tires. With the FC and FF tires being almost exactly the same thing diameter and width wise , I doubt that there would be much, if any, performance difference (a sizeable portion of FF guys already run the FC fronts). Keeping the rules to the current FF, there would be a decent market for conversions to the older cars, and a great market for engines & trannys to the Club Ford and vintage crowd.

The next tier would be what I have been preaching here - a MC engined FC. Same rules, with maybe a couple of tweeks to upgrade safety and/or help decrease technology creep (maybe a cap on the Manufacturers List Price on shocks? The 8 & 10 rims? More side kevlar?A limit on cockpit adjustability?)

The last tier would be the composit tubbed, ground effects car to satisfy those who have driven Altantics (the real FA's from yesteryear) and DSRs (the current ones, that is), and have the $$$ to play at that level.

The Club should then also look at an enclosed bodywork car a la S2000, and a sedan, all using the same engine as speced for the FC car.

The only real bugaboo with this whole thing is engine control and availability. Make too many different engines legal for the 2 low-end classes, and it would be easy to have an engine of the week scenario. The SIR may be a good idea, and possibly also a restrictive exhaust spec. Part of the perception of the affordability of the classes will be whether or not guys won't have to spend a small fortune chasing the latest and greatest.

The ready availibility of engines (or the lack thereof) could be a problem. At this time, the only way you can buy an engine is to either get it from a junkyard, or buy the whole bike. If the number gets up high enough, it could could be a problem getting enough good junkyard engines, and having to shell out for a complete bike goes against the cost-savings appeal. It might be possible to approach one of the cycle manufacturers and buy non-serial numbered engines en mass like Humpy Wheeler does for the Legends cars.

[Bob Wright]

I think there's no shortage of money around for the right car- look at the number of Pro Mazda's sold in the last year or two at $80K+ a shot. But you're right about the $25-30 range being a sweet spot.

My question about F1000 in general would be why re-invent the wheel? We've now got a legal car in FC with a 10,000+ mile motor. FF could have one as well with a little effort. There are a bunch of choices if one wants to spend money and have a tub car which goes fast. You also need a place to race; once you get one the price to win goes through the roof unless the formula is written very tight and we've already got a few of those available.

I'm not sure I see why stuffing a bike engine in an old FC (spending that same $20-30K by the time you're done) gets you anywhere. Look at the recent price escalation in DSR in order to win...

Just a couple of thoughts

[Lee Stohr]

I agree. Why are masses of people going to buy FC's with bike motors?
A stock or mild 1000cc bike motor in a FC will probably be slower than a single cam FC, let alone a Zetec. Remember a bike motor only makes 85 ftlbs torque.
Only recently have DSR's beaten FC times at the Runoffs.

Bike motors are cheap when you buy one from a wrecked bike, but that's not the true cost. Would you pull a Pinto out of the wrecking yard and drop it in your FC without touching it ?

A bike motor is not as reliable as a car motor either. There is no such thing as cheap racing.

[Sean Maisey]

The very first DSR you made and delivered to me at the 2001 Runoffs had a 'junkyard' motor straight from Jean Houde. I ran most of three seasons on these R1s generally acquired at $12-1500. I won a bunch of races that way and the only reason they ever failed as far as I can tell was excessive chassis flex transferred through the stressed engine case (something you and West have since addressed). Many DSR racers I know have run 20-30 races on their stock or mildly tuned motors.

In fact in 2002 when you mounted a "factory" DSR for Mark J. you used a 'junker' so bad you had to spray WD40 into it to get it cranking. There are pictures on the Sportsracer.com site even now (along with a quote from you gushing about the merits of junker bike motors in DSR) You only put in a prepped engine for the qualifying sessions and race.

I realize that you have moved up market. You have high end customers and alliances with Arnie Loyning. You have no personal economic incentive to provide a cheap racing experience for the average DSR or formula car guys. In fact just the opposite.

I appreciate what you have achieved in DSR, but that is most definitely not what most of the guys I am talking to want to achieve w/F1000. We want to avoid the arms race scenario, and keep costs VERY low. We are not looking to replace FC, just to provide a neat, low cost fun alternative with a cool engine/transmission package.

Sean

[Lee Stohr]

All true Sean, you can take a wrecking yard bike motor and race it. They are pretty powerful in stock form, but few people want to take a motor of unknown condition and put it straight into a race car. Most people pull them apart a little way, just to make sure a bearing or valve isn't about to let go. When a 12,000rpm motor let's go, there is nothing left. Car motors are much more forgiving. These bike motors are awesome, they make 3 hp per cubic inch. But because of that they are not as forgiving of over-rev's as a street car motor.
I still don't see why people would want to put a bike motor in a Zetec FC and go slower. The Zetec's are bulletproof, aren't they?
I still don't see how any class like this can ever be 'cheap'.
You can't build a new $30,000 race car with any good parts on it. It would have the cheapest of everything to make that price.
You could easily buy a used race car (like a FC) with every top of the line component for the same price, and it would be faster.

[carnut169]

Lots of bad info starting to surface here.


1st- The supply of 1000cc engines. Come on people... do you really think the amount of DSRs, F1000 and Midgets will ever come close to the number of 1000cc sport bikes being sold and wrecked? NO! The cost difference to own/ run a race car vs. a bike are night & day. There is no need to worry about the supply of these engines & a quick search on Ebay will verify this.

2nd- I purchased a NEW (04) GSXR 1000 for $2500 from Crutchfield Racing. That came w/ the trans as well! I've seen plenty sell on Ebay for between $1000 & $1500. Even if you have a Nelson or a Crutchfield or whoever inspect it you are still under the cost of a Pinto rebuild.

3rd- These cars will be every bit as fast as the FC cars, I believe faster. The fastest time I ran at Road Atlanta w/ the Pinto was a 1.29. That was after a full season of racing w/ fresh tires/ fresh engine/ etc. After being out of the car for a year, having the wrong sprocket (did not even touch 6th gear), and no engine management I turned a 1.30 in the FS. Owned most of the FSCCA cars. Also had shifter issues, suspension issues, and was sucking in hot air. Lets see what happens in February.

4th- Why not go Zetec? I believe this is simply a choice the buyer has to make. When building a new car the mc would be less $$ to build (no LD200, no bell, less expensive engine). For those converting, 12,000rpm is cool! 6 speed gearbox! Several hundred pounds less weight... we will have to see how reliable the engines turn out to be, but my guess is pretty reliable!

5th- Cost. You can look into past posts and see exactly what I spent. You can buy a mid 90's VD and convert it for way less than $30,000. I did not spend that & I've got Ohlins, a dry-sump, data system, new everything, and a Taylor Diff... its ALL the best stuff.
No, its not "cheap". Racing is not "cheap". But my car is not a collection of the cheapest of everything.

[Craig]

Lee- I think when you say the MC powered car wouldnt be any faster than a pinto or zetec powered car you are overlooking the fact that the FC min weight is 1190, while the F1000 min weight will be some 250+ lbs less. If the weights were the same the F1000 may be faster, but it would be just plain unsafe to run with over 250 lbs ballast.

I'm hoping to do a conversion like Sean O's in a few months, after I graduate from school. I would like to get into a class I can afford, which is the $30k range. I can imagine there are others like me who dont have a huge budget but love bike motors and formula cars. Just my $0.02...

Craig

[jonbaytos]

[size=2]I don't think that I have heard anything that earth shattering in terms of info from some very smart folk's.But if your not going to do something different from FC just do FC.I believe I would be correct in saying that the engine alone will not carry the formula.This is why spec classes happen ,the folk's that matter will never agree,as they all have an agenda for one reason or another.Someone needs to draw up regs that attract 500 competitors not 50.You need a formula that will draw from FA[/size],FC,FF,F500,FV,And FM.If it just to add another class what's the point.We are'nt filling the ones we have.

[Brands]

So far this discusion seems to have revolved around three or four contributors, most of whom seem to have alot of experience in race cars. As an outsider to this group, a keen reader of this forum and as a potential competitor in F1000 may I say that I am a little bewildered by all the various points of view. I have a GSXR 1000 motor sitting in my garage just waiting for a chassis. I am more that capable of converting a FC car but I am reluctant to start just yet as I can't seem to pin down any firm regulations. I just want to get started but don't want to commit in case I make the car illegal. . Just a few thoughts from someone who just wants to race.

P.S. A formula Jedi car in the UK will lap Oulton Park circuit quicker than a '99 Dallara Club F3 car using a near stock GSXR 1000.

[Stan Clayton]

[size=2]You need a formula that will draw from FA[/size],FC,FF,F500,FV,And FM.If it just to add another class what's the point.We are'nt filling the ones we have.

Just a thought, Jon, but if we aren't filling the classes we have, maybe it's because they are fundamentally flawed, and so maybe a new class IS the way to attract 500 people.

In a bigger sense, we (collectively) are trying to identify what that magic ingredient or combination of ingredients is that will re-ignite passion and enthusiasm for formula racing.

Keep the good discussion going...people are reading! :-)

Stan

[Lee Stohr]

I was just looking thru Formula Car magazine, and am stunned at the number of formula car classes. Star Mazda, Cooper tire Zetec, Formula BMW, Pacific F2000, Formula First, Formula TR, Skip Barber, East-West CFF challenge, 2006 F2000 championship, Formula SCCA, Formula Pro Racing, Canadian F1200, Vintage Vee, Formula Race Car Club of America, and more !
Tell me how is a new class going to make a dent !

[rickjohnson356]

Just jumping in at the end of this thread & haven't followed the whole thing (yet).

If the object is to create a new open wheel class that will attract 500 drivers, we have already seen something similar happen. It is called SRF with over 800 cars sold and 30-40 car grids, separate race group etc.

It can be done.

A different thread mentioned that a lot of FFord 1600 guys/gals may have gone to SRF instead of going up to FC because of the cost. Did FF/FC start to dwindle when SRF was created?

If you can buy an older push/pull rod chassis for 12K, then sell engine/trans for 6k you have 6k in the slider. spend 12k for new stuff like Sean and then you are at 18k. This is about the price of a used SRF. Winning Spec Miatas are in the 16-18k range too.

Perhaps the majority of club racers (not the extremely affluent ones) can justify (and convince the wife) an 18k expenditure on a hobby. The better half probably steps in if it goes over 20-24k to re-direct the source of funds toward long-term investments etc (college fund, better house...)
I think the appeal is there. 18k is half of what an FSCCA costs (new).

If it does catch on then FF/FC may actually go away because of better bang for the buck with f1000.

[superbikestore]

When it comes to motorcycle powered cars the purpose built cars will clean up compared to any converted car. The purpose built cars are lighter, faster, handle better and do not in the end cost any more. Consider what is costs to make the car competitive after it is built as part of the cost to buy / make.

10 years ago in British hillclimbing everyone was converting formula fords and ford 2000 cars to bike power. Now basically none of them are competitive compared to the purpose built bike engined cars (OMS, Jedi, Force, DJ etc) and it is very rare for any of them to get good results. The value of the converted cars has plummeted in England.

All cars have to have the expensive bits, diff, shocks, brakes, fire system, fuel cell, etc

I have owned and raced a Jedi, my car was 625lbs wet without a driver ready to go full of fluids and a ZX10 Motor.
I started the conversion process on the swift I had but have seen the light and bought an OMS. Yes it costs more up front but will be cheaper in the long run and is competitive and sorted right away. I am going to run hillclimbs in mine.

I would suggest you keep converted and purpose built cars in seperate classes, or make the rules as liberal as possible to give them a chance.
Just a thought.

[R. Pare]

If the purpose of the class was to be as fast as possible with the new motor, with a min weight that the older converted cars can't possibly meet, then I would agree with your acessment. However, I think that we should strive to make the minimum weight be no less than the old class weight, minus the difference in weight that the new drive train will give, and then add a few pounds. The idea is to not have to resort to "exotic" and expensive materials and manufacturing techniques to get the car down to artificially low weight standards.

For a converted FC, lets say that the difference in drivetrain weight is 250 pounds. The FC min weight is currently 1195 with driver, so a converted car sould be able to come in at 1195-250, or 945 pounds.

If the new class min weight was pegged at 975, then there really is no chance that the purpose-built cars can get any advantage in that area. Other areas, yes - that will be only natural as everyone finds out what the best combination of things are for the class.

The same sort of philosophy should be adopted for a 600cc FF class.

[carnut169]

When it comes to motorcycle powered cars the purpose built cars will clean up compared to any converted car. The purpose built cars are lighter, faster, handle better and do not in the end cost any more. Consider what is costs to make the car competitive after it is built as part of the cost to buy / make.


10 years ago in British hillclimbing everyone was converting formula fords and ford 2000 cars to bike power. Now basically none of them are competitive compared to the purpose built bike engined cars (OMS, Jedi, Force, DJ etc) and it is very rare for any of them to get good results. The value of the converted cars has plummeted in England.

All cars have to have the expensive bits, diff, shocks, brakes, fire system, fuel cell, etc

I have owned and raced a Jedi, my car was 625lbs wet without a driver ready to go full of fluids and a ZX10 Motor.
I started the conversion process on the swift I had but have seen the light and bought an OMS. Yes it costs more up front but will be cheaper in the long run and is competitive and sorted right away. I am going to run hillclimbs in mine.

I would suggest you keep converted and purpose built cars in seperate classes, or make the rules as liberal as possible to give them a chance.
Just a thought.

Thats great.
Pack up that OMS and head to Atlanta... we can find out how they compare in 3 weeks.

[preform resources]

Richard that is exactly what I was talking about on this forum many months ago,keep the min weight up so that purpose built light weights can't run away with everything,even Lee would probably agree with that as his car in open wheel form could not weigh as little as the Jedi,OMS etc..
Dave Craddock

[Lee Stohr]

F1000 could be Formula Atlantic performance at half the cost. Imagine 900lb and 185hp.
Drivertrains half the cost of a FA. Equal power to weight. No stinkin rules !

[formulasuper]

F1000 could be Formula Atlantic performance at half the cost. Imagine 900lb and 185hp.
Drivertrains half the cost of a FA. Equal power to weight. No stinkin rules !

Drivetrains are much, much less than 1/2 FA cost.

[superbikestore]

I was not trying to offend anyone - but if you include purpose built cars (that are mostly tube frame no carbon or titanium) but much lighter than a converted car they will win everything.

Jedi themselves claim wet weights without driver 572 - 620lbs. I owned one of the cars and they are not making it up. There are no exotic materials in these cars - tube frame, outboard suspension and they can be bought complete (used) in ther Uk for around $10k and up. There are literally hundreds of these types of cars in the UK. Some pictures to give the idea. http://www.race-cars.com/carsold/oth...1/jedx01ss.htm

OMS are a little heavier but much better / stiffer and even quicker.

My OMS is for hillclimbs only - I have no intention of road racing it.

[T.A. Treat]

You're taking too long to hash this out. I ran FF for three years. I bought a second FF and a R1. Had it all mocked up a year ago...and waited for you "experts" to get something down on paper.

Net result, I sold all the pieces and bought a FC two months ago. I was afraid to spent even $5k for such an unstable rules situation.

I have a Pinto powered car with stable rules and the option to go Zetec if I want to IN THE SAME CLASS. If you could make your bike powered FC's equal to my Pinto, I would welcome you to the FC class. The door has been opened for Zetecs in FC. I suggest that you step through before it slams shut.

You have at best ONE class that you can bring to life. You better start talking about competition equalizers to be INCLUSIVE to all comers (like FS, and now FC) instead of EXCLUSIVE like so many comments I read here. Why are you talking about faster this or faster than that? Start discussing equally faster and you will find the magic.

[Mike B]

T.A.,
No matter what gets hashed out (and it is, if you read ALL the posts) it's going to run in FS at first. That's where your FF with R1 could have run without any problem. Don't blame "us" for not giving you a place to race your creation.

I don't expect this proposal to be created and accepted overnight. The Zetec proposal took nearly 18 months. I have a day job and a race car to prep, as do the other committee members so time is precious. We'll squeeze in meetings as we (read "I") can and try to bring closure sooner than later. This is getting a fair bit of exposure both in the club and the industry so it may not take as long the Zetec thing. Stay tuned!

[Stan Clayton]

Being sleepless in Kansas City and with nothing else to do, I've been re-reading the F1000 threads. There are some really good ideas here, and I think I see a way forward that can satisfy most interested parties.

To capture some of the cost savings measures as well as satisfy those looking for more design freedom and/or safety features, we could structure the class with two or more "spec lines" to produce a couple of different approaches. For example:

1. The minimalist approach: FC dimensional, chassis, aero and wheel rules with 2-piston calipers (alloy or ferrous) and a locked diff. Wet sump engine with stock internals and the OEM ECU (with an add-on module permitted) and a racing exhaust. Minimum weight 900 lbs.

2. The more open approach: chassis, wheels, aero, diff, engine, etc., at 975 lbs.

There is no doubt some additional fine tuning required, but here are some thoughts to illustrate where I'm coming from.

Sean's car gives a good indication of what can be done with the minimalist approach, and his car weighs about 945 lbs as converted. If he ditched the admittedly good looking 8 & 10 inch wheels & tires, and replaced his iron calipers with alloy ones (selling the iron ones to some poor smo' in FC), plus did some detail work (locked diff?), he could get right down to 900 lbs without resorting to any exotic materials or expensive custom parts.

OTOH, the Van Diemen and Gloria are veritable tanks with big sidepods, fat tires and wheels and big wings, and it's reflected in their weights. IIRC, Jon Baytos says that the VD F1000 weighs 850 w/out driver. As nifty as these cars are, in the hands of equal drivers I can't see them running away from a carefully executed 'Option 1' car.

In general I am not a "let's slap some weight on it" kind of rules writer, but since some of these issues are sticking points, and add weight to the cars anyway, why not acknowledge
reality and move forward.

Best regards, Stan Clayton

[carnut169]

Sean's car gives a good indication of what can be done with the minimalist approach, and his car weighs about 945 lbs as converted. If he ditched the admittedly good looking 8 & 10 inch wheels & tires, and replaced his iron calipers with alloy ones (selling the iron ones to some poor smo' in FC), plus did some detail work (locked diff?), he could get right down to 900 lbs without resorting to any exotic materials or expensive custom parts.

OTOH, the Van Diemen and Gloria are veritable tanks with big sidepods, fat tires and wheels and big wings, and it's reflected in their weights. IIRC, Jon Baytos says that the VD F1000 weighs 850 w/out driver. As nifty as these cars are, in the hands of equal drivers I can't see them running away from a carefully executed 'Option 1' car.

In general I am not a "let's slap some weight on it" kind of rules writer, but since some of these issues are sticking points, and add weight to the cars anyway, why not acknowledge
reality and move forward.

I weighed my car yesterday w/ all bodywork, 3 gallons of fuel, both radiators, etc. It now comes in at 850lbs w/o driver.

My previous weigh-in had a couple less gallons of fuel, and its possible I did not have all the bodywork on it (?), plus only one radiator and different shifter linkage.

Yes, I could drop some weight w/ a spool or locked diff (the Taylor Quaffe is 17lbs) and the 6 & 8" wheels (poss another 12lbs) plus those LD20s are heavy...
Lets say I came in w/ only 1g of fuel had the smaller wheels and a locked diff- 850-10-12-14= 814lbs w/o driver. Really cannot imagine it being lighter than that. Now add in the average size guy (165lbs?)- 979lbs w/ no fuel.

I have changed my opinion on the weight issue a bit... Superbike is right- the weights need to be about the same for the cars to be equal. Further, a realistic weight would encourage the home builder and running a race to come in w/o fuel is not the best scenario.

That said, I'd like to see the min weight for F1000 be 1000lbs (with driver).

F1000= 1000cc engines, 1000lbs!

[formulasuper]

I would agree with Sean, 1000 would be the proper weight for F1000, all things considered.

[jonbaytos]

I think 1000 lbs is a good #.Stan did you call our car a TANK? Shame on you.JB

[superbikestore]

1000lb wieght will rule out the light weight cars - you cannot carry 200lbs of ballast and keep it safe. Keep the diff though - someone will come up with a cheaper option. OMS have one for around $1800 complete.

Seems to be some mixed opinion on bike motors from reading the threads - I think it depends on the make. Suzuki are well understood as bomb proof motors. They will take an incredible amount of abuse. 99% of the time there is no need to open them up - just bolt them in and run them. Buy your salvage motor and go race. The only thing to look out for are engine casings / case covers with holes in them - ones that have slid down the road and worn thru. Dirt in any engine will destroy it quickly so beware of bodged repairs. Scraped up side casings are not a problem as long as it has not gone thru.
Kawasaki motors are very strong also - less so yamaha / honda though many use them without problems.
The whole motor costs significantly less than a rebuild - I would not waste your money opening up a motor that starts and runs and sounds OK.
My opinion they are all stronger than just about any car based race motor. (don't shoot me for saying it).
$1500 - $2000 is more than enough to buy a good engine. I have 2 gsxr1000's if anyone needs one (734) 996 0135

[formulasuper]

The weight being set at 1000lbs would be a good reason to beef up driver protection if your car is under weight. I agree that ballast is just hauling around junk. Make good use of the needed weight where it can do the most good.

[jerry freeman]

I agree. Add bars and aluminum intrusion plates for saftey
not ballast to meet min. weight. F1000 at 1000 lbs.

[Stan Clayton]

I weighed my car yesterday w/ all bodywork, 3 gallons of fuel, both radiators, etc. It now comes in at 850lbs w/o driver.

My previous weigh-in had a couple less gallons of fuel, and its possible I did not have all the bodywork on it (?), plus only one radiator and different shifter linkage.

Wow! I thought you said it weighed 765...?

[carnut169]

Guess the bodywork, fuel, water, (larger sprocket, longer chain, new brakes, sway bar control, radio, etc) is worth about 85lbs. Believe me, I wish it still was 765!

[JEREMY HILL]

[size=2]my photon ex/fc wieght was 800 lbs (before crb idiots added to it) this wieght was achieved with some carbon (wings) but with a fairly heavy steel chassis, 1/8" steel pan, much bracing for anti-side intrusion, and mild steel suspension, i believe 950lbs with driver is the correct wieght for F1000 giving a good balance for safety and engineering skill, i, unlike the scca rulemakers, believe that race cars should be as light as safely possible, therefore making them fun to drive!!!, i hope this information is helpfull, best regards jeremy hill , ps my ready to go fs/f1000 is for sale, please contact me at 416-231-2007 or photon00@hotmail.com[/size]

[Stan Clayton]

Jeremy, your engine combo was required to weigh 930 pounds, right? Seems like a good starting point to me!

Stan
(new member of the 'crb idiots' club...)