Just want to Race FB
I am getting into FB (putting car together now) and I'm going into this knowing I'm giving up ~60lbs easy. I'm 6'3" and 225, But I'm in it for the fun and competition. My competition will be other guys more than likely just like me giving up those lbs... sure it would be nice to see the rules add another 50lbs for us um... B & T guys. No matter what the outcome for rule changes... I'll still go racing in the FB class.
Doug Cox
2007 Stohr F1000
Originally Posted by Wren
I take it your response is geared toward me, which is fine. I do things my way and based on my research, yes there are people that are as you described. I procrasinate at times, but when i decide to to something or buy something it is because i am comfortable in doing so. I don't care what you do as far as rules go and i am not saying they need to be set in stone. My take from this rather large thread is more about complaints what ever they are, it is discouraging from a buyer prospective.
Generaly, when people complain enough, things get changed.
quite frankly i want an RFR (new model) With a BMW (after it is proven to work), not because of the power it has, but because that is what i want. I have no intention of running the run offs or pro series, mostly regionals and the occasional national, defianately won't be competive with the top runners, just looking to get back into it for fun, But if you have someone running that motor and winning all the time, what do you think will happen? It won't be like the suzuki domination just becuase the BMW is so much better horsepower and torque wise. As someone said, $15,000 for a BMW and having a spare on hand another 10-15,000, close to 30 grand down the toilet if engines were limited to particular years and it pushed BMW out or another 5-10,000 to make it legal. Now i am not saying it will happen, but listenening to alot of these posts make you wonder.
The biggest concerns i hear the most are weight and slowing the cars down, easy decisions in my opinion, just do something about it. its been the same arguments for the past three years.
Will i buy an FB, not sure, i want to, i am not encouraged at the moment from a stability point of view. Will i order a new Pro Formula Mazda to run in FA even though i know it isn't competive with FA cars, who knows, find out when i go to Arizona in a couple of weeks and visit them.
I am not trying to step on anyones toes, i don't have a stake here yet, but these are my concerns and it sounds like even competitors have concerns, after all, where else can a prospect buyer and competitor find out if something is right or not in their mind.
John
FB has been the fastest growing open wheel class in the club for some time. The rules are still the same as when the class started and any changes will be very minor simply to control the escalation of costs. If you are in favor of higher costs then do FA.
Thanks ... Jay Novak
313-445-4047
On my 54th year as an SCCA member
with a special thanks to every SCCA worker (NONE OF US WOULD RACE WITHOUT THE WORKERS)
There is a reason why its the FASTEST growing
Be honest Jay, are we really talking about cost escalation here or is this more about slowing the cars down for safety reasons or both.
Go ahead slap a restrictor in it and choke it down to 167 HP. Lets see if it takes some of the sizzle away from the class.....just saying.
Last edited by ghickman; 10.02.13 at 11:33 PM.
Gary Hickman
Edge Engineering Inc
FB #76
I agree, the class has come along way in a short time as far as growth. FB was a great idea. Your right about the rules not changing much, i dont understand why there is so much dis-agreement among competitors when it comes to rules, there is no other class on this site that has as much to complain about when it comes to the rules or proposed changes. The best thing that could happen is for the FB competitors to sit down and figure out a goal for the class. Cost containment, safety (slowing the cars down etc.)
John
Honestly, this class simply isn't mature enough to expect there will not be any rule changes. Ever.
There are a couple of areas that have to addressed, eventually, someday. whenever. That doesn't mean changes will come down tomorrow. These ideas have been batted around for at least the last three years without anything being done about them and they will continue to batted around until some action is finally taken. Everyone knows what needs to be done. It's no secret.
The way I see it, the quicker we address them and get them out of the way, the sooner we can say that we will not be needing any additional rule changes for quite a long time. Stalling only makes it worst.
None of the changes suggested will add any significant cost increase, and if anything will make the class even more competitive than it is now. I would have thought the possible rule changes being discussed would bring more people in to the class than send people out. Guess I don't see where there is a problem. Unless they are planning on spending a ton of cash to buy an advantage only to find that can't happen with one or more of the rule changes being suggested.
But, as I said, we've had this discussion every year, but nothing ever changes.
Cost control is the main issue Gary. What will happen to costs when you must have a 200 hp BMW or other engine to compete at the front? Right now you can be at the front with about a $5000 investment in an engine, but I can guarantee you that this number will double or triple if we get engines that make 200hp at 14,000 rpm. Engine parity is a very important issue for maintaining future low cost for FB. The 167 hp number you are quoting is simply a number from a dyno test Nothing more, it's not a target or anything else.
None of us are wanting to take the magic out of FB. I cannot even imagine where you got that idea. What we are trying to do is to save the magic of FB by maintaining a very fast race car at a very reasonable cost to race.
I would love to race cars as fast as F-Atlantic, they are very cool cars. But FB is MUCH cooler because we are the 2nd fastest open wheel class at 1/3 to 1/2 the cost of FA. Alternatively we could do our best to make FB have more magic and be faster with 200hp engines so that the SCCA can merge FB with FA. Then FB can be the fastest and the most expensive at the same time.
Thanks ... Jay Novak
313-445-4047
On my 54th year as an SCCA member
with a special thanks to every SCCA worker (NONE OF US WOULD RACE WITHOUT THE WORKERS)
What ever happen to that FB rules committee that the SCCA tried forming a while back?
Anybody actually on it?
There are a lot of FB racers on that committee.
Thanks ... Jay Novak
313-445-4047
On my 54th year as an SCCA member
with a special thanks to every SCCA worker (NONE OF US WOULD RACE WITHOUT THE WORKERS)
Good to hear.
I've always felt the drivers should be the ones helping to make the rules.
So what is the right HP number
I'm just curious Jay what you think is the right HP number?
I'm sure there are many in this class that didn't get into it to go slower (or maybe there are). If there are some of you that would like to go slower I'd like to see a show of hands.
The 07/08 Suzuki makes roughly 182-185 HP on the dyno, why not make that our bench mark?
Or is this HP too high because some of the newer cars are getting faster because of weight, mech. grip, down force, less drag, all of the above?
Gary Hickman
Edge Engineering Inc
FB #76
I do not know what the best number is. Me personally, I want to see engine parity. Brian and I will have to leave FB if costs to compete go up at all. I have NO DESIRE to slow the cars down, but I do not see any need for them to go faster at all.
Even if the HP was locked down to say 180 the cars would still get faster because the development of this class is in its infancy.
I can guarantee you that no one wants to take the magic out of the class. I can bet the SCCA will seriously consider merging FB with FA if we get any faster and that will not help the class.
I am not alone in thinking that FB is the biggest bang for the $$ in SCCA club racing. I and everyone I know wants to keep it this way.
Thanks ... Jay Novak
313-445-4047
On my 54th year as an SCCA member
with a special thanks to every SCCA worker (NONE OF US WOULD RACE WITHOUT THE WORKERS)
I will volunteer to test
If the FB community would like me to test this new proposed restrictor at Willow Springs Raceway I will.
I have zillion miles around this place and the weather is perfect right now. WSIR is very fast for those of you that have never been there.
I'd like 3 different restrictor sizes to work with.
Gary Hickman
Edge Engineering Inc
FB #76
No one has proposed any kind of limit to engine years that would exclude the BMW. No one has proposed any kind of engine ban.
I really don't understand what you are wondering.Now i am not saying it will happen, but listenening to alot of these posts make you wonder.
Doug,
I don't know how serious you are, but to me and a lot of other guys who have invested time and money to get down to minimum weight. This is a serious subject.
The problem here is whenever anyone even mentions a change in the rules, a real Sh#t storm starts up. I still haven't seen(to me) a real legitimate case for raising minimum weight, or the SIR thing. When the next generation engine shows up in a car and starts kicking everyone's ass, then maybe someone can argue for a change. But that hasn't happened yet.
I will say it one more time- If it ain't broke, don't fix it...
BTW- I've gone from 205lbs, to 185 during my hiatus. If I can loose weight, so can you.
Jay,
The sad and screwed up fact is that you are right. The SCCA could very possibly kill one of the greatest open wheel classes if they get any faster(or better?). Does anyone think a top FB can run with a top FA? Maybe not yet.
That is why things should remain status quo until this actually starts happening.
Its simple, as mentioned a few posts ago about a BMW that in stock configuration puts out around 190 HP, in FB configuration maybe 200. It is 10-20 HP more than Suzuki plus higher torque, never mind the fact that it pulls all the way to redline and beyond. Using restrictors in all motors effectively bans this motor due to the fact that no one would spend twice the money to buy this engine and run in. It may not say ban in print, but it really is. Racing, except in spec series is a combination of things, figuring out how to get an advantage is one of them and if you can put a better motor in your car, well, who wouldn't want to do that.
Now the motor isn't proven yet in this class, but i suspect with the numbers it puts out it will be and it will be the new Suzuki until something better comes along. I think bottom line is people fear that this motor will work and work well, but they don't want to have to spend the money that it would cost. If it costs the same as putting a suzuki in your car, i don't think it would be an issue because everyone would buy one.
John
I personally would run a BMW in a FB even with restrictors as long as I can us an aftermarket ECU. I am in the process on putting one into a DSR an the installation is pretty clean, I am going to run a Halltech ECU. We are going to run the motor in stock configuration except for the elimination of the TBW.
The motors can be had with low miles on EBAY for a very reasonable price and if I was going to run one in FB it would be nice to have a motor that was designed for 190 hp running at 170 rather than the other way around. It may end up costing more than the GSXR for the initial installation because of the ECU but it is not 3 times the cost and if the motors will last longer than it will be a cost save.
I know of one person who drag races one of these motors and they ran it all season at 7 lbs of boost, stock rods, stock pistons, stock everything except the ecu. On the final day of the season they turned the boost up to 18 lbs and did 20 runs on the motor. The motor was taken apart and everything inside was still "like new". Do that with a stock GSXR motor!
Cool- Sleeve it down to 680cc's and put that thing in a sports racer with an adjustable waste gate...
Nevermind
It is likely that some OEM race ECU's are not going to be ideal for FB. For example, throttle by wire.....I do not think FB needs this level of complexity.
I wouldn't be too optimistic about seeing a BMW work in an FB anytime soon. This isn't a new discovery. I got JR a BMW motor 3 years ago and you can ask him how that went. I just saw a DSR blow up in practice at the run offs. And he had all the latest ecu gadgets etc. Personally I'd like to see it work but abandoned that hope a while ago. The Kawi ZX10 is the future. More power but more weight so it's in line with the gsxr. Plus you can find 10 with under 1000 miles on eBay any day of the week.
As a racer I cringe when I hear people talk about: slowing cars down, weight increases and rules changing. If you want to have a heavier car that goes slower check out FC. As far as the argument about merging FA and FB I'd say FA's have more to worry about then FB. We have more participation and 20 different new manufacturers. FA doesn't have one. They have to buy everything used. Where is the future pointing?
I'd stick with the formula that works: 1000 lbs min with 170+/- hp gsxr. Whatever that power to weight ratio adds up to apply to all new engines moving forward: eg: BMW or kawi have an 20 extra HP raise the min weight on cars that run those motors to equal the power/weight ratio of the gsxr/1000 lbs. done move on. In the mean time all you fat guys (me included) eat some rice cakes and go for a jog.
"If you're not driving on the edge you're taking up too much space.... "
Every thing i have read and heard about the quality of the motors has been good. Putting a turbo on it for drag racing with 7 lbs of boost, even 18 and having the motor like new is also a testament as to the motor. What i dont understand is if a motor can take a turbo under drag racing stress for a season, even though they are 1/4 mile runs, and come out like new, why worry about restricting down 20HP? Knowing how the after market is, i am sure BMW designed these motors to with stand way more than 190HP. Obviously only testing will tell for these cars.
As far as the ECU goes, from what i gather, you can purchase the software and an unlock code from BMW to get into your ECU and change parameters as well as turning features on or off. The unlock code has to be purchased, then take ecu and code to dealer and they will unlock it for you after you sign waivers.
http://www.bmw-motorrad.com/com/en/i...html¬rack=1
John
Someone will make it work eventually. As far as FA goes, your right, i have looked into it, no manufacters, parts will get hard to come by, Carl Haas bought all of the swift Formula Atlantic molds, parts and rights from swift awhile ago and although it was said that he would manufacter parts, i havent seen anything or any word. On the bright side of it is, there are over 160 Pro Formula Mazdas built and they continue building new cars and parts, when the series folds or they udate there design and teams require new cars, they have a place to run run in FA. That is how FA will be salvaged eventually unless someone builds new cars.
Pretty sure
that unlocking deal is engine TUNING related (ign and fuel, etc), but NOT what would be needed to allow the engine to run in a car application.
Hey John Paul- Eat rice cakes and jog? How about the bud light diet? just drink beer and don't eat any food!
I tried that once, but I kept falling off the weight machines at LA Fitness. They eventually threw me out...lol
From reading on their web site and other sources, it allows you to disable features such as traction control, kick stand switch and others. Really wouldnt make sense to only have ign and fuel for the money it cost for the kit when you can use a power commander for them.
Brett, your right about the weight... my wife keeps harping at me to loose the weight I need to... and I've started on that road and will be at 'racin' weight (200lbs for me) by the start of next season...Thanks for the extra push..
Doug
Good on you, Doug. All the best, and good luck!
Still, not at all what would allow that engine to work in a car.
Glen Cooper and Larry Volum have ZX10's. Their motors are strong, but they did not obsolete the Suzuki. If you put a restrictor on their motors, the Kawi would be non-competitive.
Steve Ott actually had a BMW at the runoffs. Ted actually saw it. I'm not sure if it was running w/o issue, but Ott was not much faster than he was with his Suzuki and I think the increase in pace had more to do with getting the car handling better.
Like Brett said, we need to deal with a problem when it becomes a problem. If the CRB puts restrictors on the Suzuki, I might as well just go F2000 racing.
J.R.O
I just thought I would add my 2pence worth to this discussion. I was around towards the beginning of this class and even played a very minor role in the rules formation. As has been posted in this thread those rules have remained in place since day one with only minor tweeks and it has allowed the class to grow pretty well in spite of the various economic issues we are all affected by to greater or lesser extents. It seems to work, so why mess with it? I want to get back racing before i'm too old and decrepit and have started looking around at the possibilities. F1000 is an expensive class, there's no doubt, but at regional level i don't think it has to be which is where I would find myself racing. The speed of the cars does not worry me at all. The faster the better. However the financial aspects to this class do worry me, and anything that can be done to reduce engine costs would be a real bonus. If there was a magic way to cap power/revs at the current GSXR level i would be all for it. The same goes for an open ecu rule - the class has survived without needing it so why introduce another expense? If a new engine can't be made to run without it then you can't run that motor - simple. If the BMW has been adapted to run then again why do we need a custom ECU? If i do decide to race FB again it would be a budget effort anyway, so perhaps it need not concern me as I can implement my own rev limits and car spec.
THANK YOU JR....I was wondering when you would chime in.
What JR is saying is 100% RIGHT ON.
You dudes that want to choke these engines down will kill the class.
Could I have a show of hands how many of you really want to go slower.....do I hear crickets chirping.
Gary Hickman
Edge Engineering Inc
FB #76
At the risk of sounding like a broken record (apparently playing to a brick wall), if Formula 1000 continues on the current path, it WILL be combined with FA. THAT will kill the class. That isn't my opinion, it's fact.
Nobody wants to go slower (except JR by going to F2000), but that is what it will take for this class to continue the unprecedented growth.
Like Wren said, but nobody seems to believe, the restrictor rule is already in the GCR.
Mike Beauchamp
RF95 Prototype 2
Get your FIA rain lights here:
www.gyrodynamics.net/product/cartek-fia-rain-light/
Slow the cars down or else
I'm aware of the restrictor rule and I know it has been in place from the original crafting of the rules.
I feel this thread is less about engine cost containment and more about slowing the cars down or we will get stuck in with FA. Something tells me this is nothing but a scare tactic but that's just my opinion and I'll bet there are others that agree with me.
So the way I see it the SCCA is concerned that the FB is going too fast for a "TUBE FRAME" chassis. If this is the case why do they allow DSR to continue at the speeds they are going? Ok so they have a full body around them and possibly that helps in an impact but have any of you looked at a DSR up close. They have less frame than we do and have a 100lb lower weight limit. Some are even converted FF and FC.
So folks it looks as though we are going too fast. How do we slow the cars down, shave off 5HP. Upside here is that the engines MIGHT last a bit longer.
Downside in my opinion- those of you that are thinking of switching to the Kawasaki power may find that you are at a slight disadvantage. The Kawasaki is HEAVIER and as of yet won't accept a wet sump pan. Yes it is heavier contrary to what others have said.
So guys don't sell off your Suzuki just yet until this restrictor business is settled.
Gary Hickman
Edge Engineering Inc
FB #76
For me, that's the only thing it's about. The alternative is keeping our heads in the sand and finding out the hard way that it wasn't a scare tactic.
But you still think it might be a scare tactic?
Based on what data? I think it's too early to make any claims one way or the other.
I agree were going too fast, but not from a safety aspect, just class consolidation. Definitely agree that the engines will last longer.
Nice to see you're coming around!
Mike Beauchamp
RF95 Prototype 2
Get your FIA rain lights here:
www.gyrodynamics.net/product/cartek-fia-rain-light/
The PM's are flowing in
So what makes us think that if we reduce the performance by 5HP that this won't cause a reduction in participation that would then get us tossed in with FA?
Mike B. if the Kawasaki had a real advantage I believe we would have already seen it. Toss a restrictor in it that reduces the HP to be equal with the Suzuki trust me will lessen its chances. IT IS HEAVIER. Put that in your VD conversion and presto you just got 40lbs. heavier....willing to take that hit?
Gary Hickman
Edge Engineering Inc
FB #76
My scale
must be broken
Bare engine w/ starter only showed a very negligible difference.
The drysump plate, elec H2O pump and oil tank required to run the Kwak does not amount to 40 lbs if that is your math, PLUS the '08 Suzi low mile eng supply is not getting better.
must be broken
Bare engine w/ starter only showed a very negligible difference.
The drysump plate, elec H2O pump and oil tank required to run the Kwak does not amount to 40 lbs if that is your math, PLUS the '08 Suzi low mile eng supply is not getting better.
On edit II - ...not to mention the massively lower oil temp of the BRD dry sumped Kawi has me thinking I might be able to ditch the oil cooler altogether and go liquid to liquid heat exchanger, or at the very least a much smaller oil to air oil cooler...
Last edited by glenn cooper; 10.04.13 at 1:09 PM.
I've never heard anyone in th paddock say "damn these cars are to fast I wish they were slower" everyone I know is busy tweaking them to go faster the next session. You want to dumb them down to f2000 levels because you are scared of class consolidation with FA. Good let it happen. The only thing that'll happen is the FA's will get slowed to our speeds. Big deal more people to race with.
Personally I don't believe that they will ever be consolidated
"If you're not driving on the edge you're taking up too much space.... "
I heard that the ZX 10 was 15lbs heavier. The big deal (from what I've heard) is that it only has an advantage on the gsxr past 12k rpms and up to 12k it has less acceleration (torque) than a gsxr. So if you restrict the engine at 12k it'll be a dog compared to the gsxr. And no one will use them and we are back to scrapping for 07-08 gsxr enginesmust be broken
Bare engine w/ starter only showed a very negligible difference.
The drysump plate, elec H2O pump and oil tank required to run the Kwak does not amount to 40 lbs if that is your math, PLUS the '08 Suzi low mile eng supply is not getting better.
"If you're not driving on the edge you're taking up too much space.... "
Where did 5 HP come from?
If the Kawasaki is heavier, why would I put it in my car? That would be dumb.
Who said anything about F2000 levels?
Threads like this that are full of rumors and flat out false "information" are where outsiders get the impression that F1000 is unstable. I guess it bears repeating: there has not been a rule change in F1000 since its inception. Not only that, if restrictors were to be implemented, there STILL wouldn't be a rule change.
Mike Beauchamp
RF95 Prototype 2
Get your FIA rain lights here:
www.gyrodynamics.net/product/cartek-fia-rain-light/
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