FSCCA info needed

[Sped1111]

Let me start by saying I tried the new speccar site with little luck logging in. I have the feeling everyone would like to talk there rather than here, well I had no luck logging on so here I am. First of all I really like the idea of a spec series, and I do really love the styling of a FSCCA car. Now I live in the Windsor area, about 45 minutes away from the Waterford Hills race track (Detroit). I went there to talk to some of the racers about your formula that I'm interested in. I heard things like the transmissions fall apart, the cars are full of bugs and from what seemed to be a veteran racer "the scca has no business designing cars". Now I'm not here to slam your formula. Quite the contrary, I like your idea. I can't stand thinking winning is about spending more. I'm sure with every new car there will be bugs, that's just life. I was wondering if someone from FSCCA could shed some light on the disparaging comments I heard from what seemed like everyone. Have the upgrades fixed the problems, how are they to set up, what's the cost compared to FC. Thanks
Darryl

[BHerscher]

Darryl, there were some early problems with the car. Those have been addressed and are way in the past. As for SCCA being in the race car business, they have had some ups and downs, but the Spec Racer Ford appears to be a very sucessful endeavor. I would like to see the FSCCA cars become as popular as the SRF's.
I enjoy driving the FSCCA car a lot. Getting used to a sequential type shift has been the only tricky part of the car. "H" pattern habbits are hard to unlearn.
As for set -up of the car, I think it is very easy and straight forward. There is enough adjutment available within the spec parameters to tune the car to a drivers style. Yes there may be some short comings but it is a spec car after all.
The car is easy to work on and lends itself well to someone who doesn't want to buy every trick of the week. Tires will be your biggest expense, but you can get at least two good weekends out of a set of Hoosiers.
Additionally, you won't end up a garage slave keeping this car on the track. It is a good sound car
Recently through the efforts of Erik Skirmants at SCCA some good things are happening with the FSCCA car. Like reduced parts prices!!
I hope Erik can continue with the good things he is doing for the cars.
I hope others speak up about their good experiences with their cars.
I like mine and would reccommend one to anyone who wants to go formula car racing, to seriously consider one of these cars.

Bill Herscher
Formula Cars, Inc.

[joe horvath]

You picked a bad time to post your question; many here are off to the Runoffs. I will be heading that way in the morning. But let me take a crack at your question.

First, Go back over the old posts on this site dating back to it's inception. All of the early problems with the car are well documented. You will also find a few threads in which you will see that there are some SCCA members who detest spec cars and the SCCAs involvment with the sale of them. You apparently have already met some of the above mentioned.

Second, If you want accurate information about the car talk to someone who has one. I received mine in March of this year ( SR version). I have run about 10 races and 3 test days without a mechanical failure. The transmission, which was the weak link in the early cars, has been flawless. If you don't crash, the car is very economical to run. You can use 87 octane fuel, and the Hoosier tires will give 20+ heat cycles. My buget is about the same as my SRF was. However, if you tend to run into things, some of the replacement parts are a bit pricey. Enterprises is working to bring the cost of those parts down.

I started out with a very reliable and proven spec car (SRF) and upgraded to the SRSCCA. I have no regrets. The car is everything I expected.

Joe

[Tom Mihelich]

Darryl,

Shoot me an e-mail after the Runoff's and we can talk about the car. Maybe you might want to stop by my place and check out the car first hand. I live just 30 minutes from Waterford Hills in Troy Mi.
My e-mail is mihelic1@comcast.net
Let me know.

Tom Mihelich

[Eric Cruz]

Hi Darryl,
IMO you can't go wrong with one of these cars. Take Tom up on his offer, and look at the components you get for the money. It's really phenomenal, especially when you consider that engine costs are essentially zero compared to most other formulae. Gearboxes are a wonderful thing now that they are reliable.

And SCCA did not design the car as suggested by your veteran acquaintance. It is a fairly standard Van Diemen design, SCCA Enterprises imports and distributes them. That is a complex and ever changing issue/arrangement that should have little impact on your decision whether or not to buy one of these cars. It seems to be of the greatest importance to people that are not interested in spec cars. Those of us that choose to buy a spec car are apparently taking food from the mouths of their children...

Enterprises has a new and very capable president, who is working to reduce parts prices, and build participation to obtain National status for the class.

I believe the cars are fast, fun and technically sound, the competition can be great, and the support the program is receiving will continue its improvement.

Best regards,
Eric

[tbeck]

Darryl,

I am one of the earlier car owners. Today, I feel the cars are an excellent choice for the club racer. I will try and keep my comments as brief and to-the-point as possible;

I would like to reiterate, that Van Demien is the designer/maker of the cars. not Enterprises.
From my perspective, the problems were not with the chassis, but with the engine/trans thrown in this chassis, and the appearent lack of control Enterprises had over VD to make things right in a timely manner.

There were some minor "bugs", (Car exceeded sound limmitation of SCCA, needed a muffler; Needeed an altenator to perform properly; Very restricted oil capacity; Oli cooler was needed, etc,, etc,,). Originally we, as customers were expected to pay for these "fixes" which I thought was absurd. I believe current cars come with altenator & muffler. Not overly concerning stuff.

Another problem, was purchasers assuming they could just "bolt the wheels on" these cars and go racing. They didn't understand that what you received was essentially a "box of parts". Other than the engine itself, these cars should be completely dissasembled and re-built, especially the trans.

The "biggie" was the trans. The most signifigant "change" or "update" would be the availabiity of the light wieght flywheel/clutch assembly, thereby reducing the shock to the trans itself. These cars, (engine/trans), came with an absolutely huge flywheel/clutch, (designed for a vehicle three-four times the wieght of a FSCCA, I believe).

After driving FF/FC for years, the first thing you notice is a lack of "feel" with the trans/shifting mechinism, which I assume is the use of a cable rather than solid linkage.
One has to learn to shift the car a particular way. Much like a "street" car. For those of us from conventional FF/FC, especially who "left-foot-brake", it's quite a challenge to "re-learn" to use the clutch. Karters' would also now have to utilize the clutch. Somewhat fortunately, alot of the FSCCA purchasers came from "street" type race cars or SFR, so there was no real change in shift habits required; Their trans performed flawlessly.

Overall, I believe the cars are now worthy.........There also remains opportunity to purshase a couple at incredible bargains......But hopefully, not for long.......Interest is increasing!

[MGBystrom]

tbeck

Myself and my son Noah (who got to drive it) had a great time with our car. We received it with gearbox updates and had absolutely no problems at all. Moreover, Noah said it was a kick to drive it out of the corners with the new flywheel and mapping.

Curious though about your "clutching" comments.

Noah is a right foot braker, and never used the clutch at all, up or down, except to engage gear one and commence roll. Again, with no problems to the system.

Having said that, he uses the same method with his 'H' pattern Zetec. without problem.

He is however planning to spend a complete test weekend this winter attempting to make the conversion to left footer.

Point? This car can be driven a number of ways without compromising the system that plagued the car when originally introduced.

M. Bystrom

[Sped1111]

Most of your comments are what I was hoping and expecting to hear. With most things that are new there are a few bugs, no prob. It would seem they are fixed. Tom yes expect an email and a visit. I look forward to the opportunity to meet and talk with you. In reading your comments and talking to other formula racers (non spec) it has occured to me that there is for the most part a poor opinion of spec racers. This is an opinion that I don't share. Money beating skill never made sense to me or sounded fun. I really get the impression (perhaps I'm wrong) that many formula racers think they will find some golden secret to win, one that spec wouldn't allow. Many racers I've talked to say , start out with this car (which isn't competitive) then once you get experience your should buy this car, or if your serious buy this one. I'd rather buy one car, update it occasionally. As it stands FSCCA and formula vee are the only two like that and drum brakes and no wings don't really appeal to me (no offense to you vee guys). For now I thought I'd go to Waterfod Hills but others such as Gingerman or Mid Ohio are also possibilities. As far as these tracks go is there much of a turn out (FSCCA). And in my reading I hear from five cycles to twenty for the life of the tires, which one, that's a big range. Thanks again guys and I look forward to reading more of your information.
Darryl

[Eric Cruz]

Darryl,
I think tire life depends primarily on what you consider to be acceptable remaining grip, but also on how the tires were used or abused. It's an R45 Hoosier, so it's going to act just like any other fairly hard racing compound. Grip will drop off slower than with a softer compound, generally, and the Hoosier guys tell me that scrubbing them correctly will extend the life considerably. I think if you are capable of using all the grip the tire has (I say "I think", because this is purely speculative given my limited capabilities), you'll see a perceptible decrease in grip after one weekend (3 heat cycles). I typically run 6-10 heat cycles on a set, but I've gone as much as 15 or so. Depends on the track, too - Roebling will destroy them, others aren't so bad. The last time at VIR I went quicker than ever, and the tires had 7 heat cycles, so go figure.

I guess the bottom line is that there's a lot of variables, and it's difficult to put a hard number on it, but it's a harder tire than you'd run in a lot of situations with other formula cars. However, this is good since everyone has to run the same thing, and competitive tire life will be longer overall.

Best regards,
Eric

[RS Motorsport]

I'm wondering how many of those people own one of these cars... if they do own one they either don't know how to set it up or haven't done the updates that address all of the initial issues.


Jeff

[tbeck]

MGBystrom,

That the trans. can be conventionaly shifted, (without the clutch, as most of us comming from ff/fc are accostomed to), is great to hear! However, it would be nice to hear from Enterprises that the technique is acceptable. We felt a lighter flywheel/clutch could possibly solve the problem, (which according to your experience, it has). We've had all the "updates" performed also. but were/are leary of shifting without the clutch, primarily due to the fact that we were chastised for doing so. Enterprises/Elite, (someone), went to the trouble of issuing a tech. letter indicating the trans should NEVER be downshifted w/o the clutch! In fact, went on to describe the trans be shifted similar to a street car w/hellicut gear types. If this turns out, then this car is truly what it was originally represented to be.

[Marc Miller]

[size=2]tbeck,[/size]
[size=2][/size]
[size=2]In our recent FormulaCar Magazine test of the FSCCA car - I spent the entire day left foot braking w/o use of the clutch - and let the fact be known to Enterprises. Neither Ken, nor Erik were particularly concerned about not using the clutch.[/size]
[size=2][/size]
[size=2]You will wear dogs quicker of course - but that is what they are there for [/size]
[size=2][/size]
[size=2]The key is not to throw it into gear that it isn't ready for.. obviously timing the shifts would make better sense under braking - but I rhoutinely used the engine as a brake entering some of the corners during the test.[/size]
[size=2][/size]
[size=2]The updated gearbox and flywheel components made a huge difference in the shifting and response of the engine/gearbox combo. I would dare to say that nearly all of the original concerns with reliability are now gone.[/size]
[size=2][/size]
[size=2]Marc Miller[/size]
[size=2]FormulaCar Magazine[/size]

[ajs]

Just curious, did anyone look the internals of the gearbox after the test? How bad or good was it?

[bmumm]

Gentlemen,
While this is a little off-topic of the FormulaCar Magazine test, I'd like to share the following with you:

After 1,000 miles of running our car (I keep a mileage log) -- with about 60% on the original clutch/flywheel combo, 40% on the 5.5" comgination -- our transmission internals show no signs of wear. Robert uses the clutch on downshifts (for sure) and some up-shifts.
I did spend about 20 hours setting the gearbox up originally and made sure that the gears were centered as well as the shfit forks. It did take some machine work to make that all happen...and some relieving of the reverse gear on the input shaft to ensure it wouldn't interfere with first when everything else was set up correctly.

For what it's worth, we've had no problems with the gearbox (chassis # 65) and I truly feel if you set the box up right you'll have little or no problems.

One last point....if it doesn't shift easliy, something is wrong. When I first got the box, I had to build a t-bar tool to get enough force to be able to shift the box manually (rotate the barrel). After it was setup, I could shift gears easily by rotating the barrel by hand.

If you have questions, I'm happy to share.
Barry

[ajs]

I too was under the impression that all the gearbox problems were solved with and that is why I bought one. That was not a correct assumption. True, they are a blast to drive and it is a great car, but the gearbox is still the most fragile piece on the car. If you continue to drive hard, left foot brake and not use the clutch, you will destroy the gearbox. This thing is not a shifterkart. I would advise anyone who wants to purchase one of these to not be duped into thinking that the gearbox is indestructable. It is very fragile. I am surprised that no one mentions the issue with the selector fork pins. They should be first on the list for regular replacement. If one of these breaks, they do break fairly easily, and you catch two gears at once, at a minimum kiss the gears goodbye. I find it absurd that you would have to rebuild or setup the gearbox after it's delivered brand new. If I knew that the gearboxes were that fragile and needed a lot of attention, maybe I wouldn't have to replace my entire transaxle.

[Marc Miller]

I disagree - I do not think that the gearbox is extremely fragile - We spent a day in a car that had a ton of mileage on the same box with the updated pieces - with me.. who spends a lot of time in shifters and uses the engine as a brake regualry - and with someone who is inexperienced with the car - with the only problem being normal 2nd gear wear.

Remember - the hewland box - pro guys regularly replace 2nd gear - sometimes before each weekend - and dogs regularly as well.. don't assume that this gearbox is maintenance free... it is a race car, maintain it as such.

It could be there are a few boxes out there that are lemons - but the majority of owners I have talked to recently - are extremely happy with the performance of the gearbox.

[ajs]

The message needs to be clear that this car is not just a "put gas in it and go car" like a lot of people might think. The gearbox needs attention, that's all I am saying. I would go so far as to say that you need to inspect it after every race. I would hate for anyone to have the same problem I did.

Before buying a used car, find out everything you can about the way the gearbox was used (clutch or no clutch), how much time is on it and what the maintenance schedule was (which parts have been replaced and when). This will save you a big headache in the future.

[bmumm]

Hi All!
I agree with AJS that the shifter fork pin is something to think about. If one fails, no good can come of it (large understatement). When we got our car originally, there was MAJOR force required to shift the gears. This force is transmitted solely thru those little fork pins. I feel that had we tried to run the gearbox this way we would have surely sheared pins. There was significant interference on one side of the shift (dogs trying to push thru the adjacent gear) and minimal engagement on the dogs on the other side of the shift. Setting the gear box up such that the dogs are equally engaged on both sides of the shift made all the difference. Of course, when we got the shifting centered, and the gears centered on each other, we found interference between the reverse gear on the input shaft and first gear on the layshaft. A little machine work fixed that.

As Marc points out, this is a racing gearbox. You need to make sure the gearbox is setup correctly to avoid dissapointment. You should (and we do) pull the gear stack out after every event...at least to check it out. As Carrol Smith (my idol) observed about 30 years ago, "..one thing you know for sure, the guy who built your car knew he wasn't going to race it."

I'm glad to share our experience on how we setup the box if you're interested.
Regards,
Barry

[rosebudd]

I have about 10 hours on my car and have only used the clutch for hard breaking downshifts. I did break a pin and had no 3rd gear but finished the race running only 4th and 5th gear. I later found out how lucky I was not to destroy the gearbox, I guess you should stop ASAP if this happens. My gears look a little worn when replacing the pin but I think it'll be good enough to run the looooong race!! It'll be rebuilt this winter and I have a spare box on order.

By the way whats your lap times at Mid-Ohio, My best lap was a 1:32.6, whats the mark to beat with your FSCCA? 1:34.5 with no 3rd gear.

I was running at BIR last week with VETTS VIPERs and could take them down the 1 mile streight, I could take turns 1 and 2 WFO at over 6100+ RPM WOW... WOW is all I can say!!

I LOVE THIS CAR!
www.pinerunracing.com

[Eric Cruz]

Justin Huffman turned a 27.8 during the race Friday. Of course that was without the chicane, which perhaps you were running....

Eric

[Justin_H]

With the chicane I've turned 1:30.0 the last couple times I've been there. I'm sure the way the car is setup now it'll do 1:29s.

Justin

[Bill Hetzel]

Barry, I'd like to see how you are setting up the gearbox. We're headed to Laguna next weekend and while we haven't had any problems with the box, good prep always pays off.
Thanks
Bhetzel5@cs.com

[tbeck]

Thanks Ajs & bmumm,

Accurate, HONEST info...That's what's needed here.

[rosebudd]

Thanks for the info, 1:32 was with the chicane. I figured I was a couple seconds off the mark. It was my first time at the track and first time in my car.