United States Grand Prix

[Jtovo]

Michael is classless?


Problemchild (I always love when people will not divulge names)

F1 is a business.
The decision was based on money. The fight was much larger than tires this weekend, it goes towards the future of F1 beyond 2008.

The 3 teams that raced, did what they should have done.

The other teams have made a decision that will effect them in a negative manner.

I cannot wait to see how this turns out.

[P.W. LeCain]

It must be noted that Ruben's fastest lap was 2 seconds faster then MS, set on Lap 48 at a 1:12 someting. MS set fast also on lap 48 at 1:14 someting. The 3rd and 4th place cars set fastest laps quicker then MS.

Michael had fastest lap. He was well under 1:12 with a fast lap of 1:11.49.

Fast laps

Schumacher 1:11.497
Rubens 1:11.649
Monteiro 1:13.237
Karthikeyan 1:13.370
Albers 1:13.907
Friesacher 1:14.490

Did anyone notice the "in-car" shots of the Minardis? They looked like they were doing all they could to save their lives in every turn. It was kind of funny watching the Ferraris pick a wheel position and leave it and then watch the Minardis throwing the wheel from lock to lock in every turn.

[sarrcford]

http://www.usgpindy.com/news/story.php?story_id=4898

[Jim Garry]

The below is excerpted from an article titled "USGP Losers + Losers"
http://www.planet-f1.com/features/ra...ry_19992.shtml

Race Director Charlie Whiting
Ross Brawn’s drinking buddy released a letter that he got from Michelin with some smart answers as to why they couldn’t use different tyres on Sunday.

But he’s changed the rules for Bridgestone prior to a race so we’ve been here before. It's surprising nobody’s questioned why Whiting changed the tyre rules at the beginning of the 2003 Brazilian GP.

Back in 2003 you were only allowed to take one wet tyre to races, so you had to make your mind up before the event. Bridgestone arrived at Interlagos with their legendary intermediate tyre that was quite good in wet and mixed conditions. Michelin had a full wet that could run in more rain.

When the heavens opened before the race, Whiting delayed the start because the Bridgestone runners wouldn’t have been able to make it round safely. It was clearly Bridgestone’s fault for not bringing a full wet tyre, but as the argument has gone this weekend – they knew the situation…

After delaying the start the field was then sent round Interlagos behind the Safety Car until enough water was taken off the circuit. Had they released the field when it was suitable for the Michelins on full wets, then Fisichella would never have won the race in his Jordan and Kimi Raikkonen may well have got the win.

Nobody complained because it was a safety issue. Fast forward two years and Whiting is not prepared to compromise in another safety situation. This interpretation of the rules when it suits them makes F1 fans deeply suspicius - it's like there was an agenda here from the FIA.

Bernie Ecclestone
His refusal to answer some simple questions from Martin Brundle on the grid showed you where the problem lay. Ecclestone has tried very hard to bring F1 to North America, but even before this race the fans weren’t biting. Even with ticket prices at $85. (Try buying a grandstand seat for £50 at a European race.) A crowd of 120,000 was half full before we even got the farce of a race we had.

So he’s gone and shot himself in the foot by NOT sorting out the teams and getting everyone to agree to a solution. The idea that Bridgestone could have the front three rows of the grid in exchange for a safety chicane, (Introduced on safety grounds, nothing to do with performance) seemed pretty fair.

He and his former employee Charlie Whiting should have forced it through.

[racer27]

You are correct my laps times were incorrect. The times I was viewing were LAST lap of the race.


Correct Fastest Laps are below:'

1 Michael Schumacher Ferrari Lap 48 1:11.497
2 Rubens Barrichello Ferrari LAP 48 1:11.649
3 Tiago Monteiro Jordan-Toyota LAP 44 1:13.237
4 Narain Karthikeyan Jordan-Toyota LAP 65 1:13.370
5 Christijan Albers Minardi-Cosworth LAP 2 1:13.907
6 Patrick Friesacher Minardi-Cosworth LAP 43 1:14.490

[LolaT440]

ProblemC- I really doubt that Michael has more clout than a tire manufacturer, teams, car manufacturers, sponsors and fans.

This was a question of what the organizers should have done. Not one team or one driver.

I think everyone in the press conferences/new accounts has a really good argument about thier position.

The situation was, there was a bad tire. Michelin dropped the ball. Everyone followed the rules. There was a crappy show.

If someone said " What needs to be done to put on a safe show". There may have been a different result.

This is business, not a sport. To ask the rival teams if they would give away an easy victory or tailor the track and rules to help the leading teams is pretty dumb.

You need that big chief like NASCAR has to dictate what needs be be done.

[Dave Belz]

The one positive thought that I remember having as I watched was - Bravo to the fans who stayed to watch. Bravo again for the cheers they gave to Tiago on the podium, knowing that this was a milestone for him.

It could have been worse, Steve M. commented that the race was 'official' after the complettion of lap 2! Imagine a two lap race with the six starters pulling into the pits after only three minutes of racing! I do hope they identify and prosecute that idiot who threw the bottle from the trash barrel onto the track!

Dave W., excellent analysis and explanation regarding the tire failures. I question the author of the story you just quoted. The SpeedTV guys commented on that Brazil race during the broadcast and said that neither tire supplier brought a full 'monsoon' tire, and the rules were subsequently changed to mandate both a full wet and intermediate tire be taken to all events. One of those two has the wrong story.

Yes, NASCAR puts on a well attended show. But none of us on this board have ever praised the quality of their racing before. Only that they would have handled this incident differently. Interesting thought regarding manditory cautions and tire inspections - EXCEPT - the zillion full course yellows are the thing I dislike most about current Cahmp Car races.

Dave

[problemchild]

I am sorry. I did not realize that I was part of the problem. Nobody asked me how to solve the problem. Had they .... I would have suggested that they install a chicane and race. In exchange for the Bridgestone teams compromise .... all the Michelin cars start behind the Bridgestone cars and receive a one lap penalty. Or 1/2 points ... or some other penalty. They could have released the cars from impound and given them a 20 min practice session. The options are limitless.
The show must go on!
Yes Michelin screwed up. But once the ball was rolling .... many could have stopped it .... including Michael.

[Marshall Mauney]

They could have released the cars from impound and given them a 20 min practice session.

Actually, the possibility of a three-lap FCY to learn the modified course (w/ chicane) was discussed, and Toyota nixed it. When they were pressed, they admitted that Trulli's car could never have finished three laps (not enough fuel on board). [This was according to the SpeedTV announcers just prior to the formation lap.]

[Frank C]

I think that David Coulthard's statement that the "reality is mature adults couldn't find a solution that would let us go racing" sums things up best. Blame can be distributed to many, but if the tire manufacturer says that the tires are not safe, one cannot expect the teams to send the drivers out. I find Bernie's criticism of the FIA rather amusing. To me, it seems that if anyone could have forced a compromise that would have given the fans a show, it must have been Bernie. Michelin caused the problem, but F1 in total could not come up with a solution. I hope that this debacle leads to the end of Bernie and Max controlling F1.
- Frank C

[Jon Horgas]

I am sorry. I did not realize that I was part of the problem. Nobody asked me how to solve the problem. Had they ....

But once the ball was rolling .... many could have stopped it .... including Michael.

Thank God for small miracles. How can you honestly believe that a driver, yes even Michael Schumacher, has any say in what happens at a race. That would be like Dave Weitzenhof meeting with the stewards at the Runoffs to decide on a solution to help the field catch him. Problemchild, please give it a rest.

This is all very sickening, as if what happened yesterday wasn't enough!

[J.D. King]

Can't you guys see that Jim Garry and Problem Child(whoever the hell that is hiding behind a name that speaks volumes for his inane ramblings) have hit the nail on the head?

This is obviously a huge conspiracy bought and paid for by Michael Schumacher. LOF**kingL

Can I get my 45 seconds back I wasted reading those posts?

[problemchild]

I am sorry that I am sickening people. I will stop. I personally found other's racist rants sickening.

Of course, I do believe that had Michael and Rubins followed the other cars down pitlane .... the outcome would have been different. When Michael stayed on the track .... there was no stopping the farce. Had all the cars returned to the pitlane .... someone would have found a way to put on some kind of show!

Cheers!

[Jim Garry]

[QUOTE=J.D. King]Can't you guys see that Jim Garry and Problem Child(whoever the hell that is hiding behind a name that speaks volumes for his inane ramblings) have hit the nail on the head?

This is obviously a huge conspiracy bought and paid for by Michael Schumacher. LOF**kingL
QUOTE]

Hey Mr. King, you wanna fight, let's fight. But don't use my name on this site in that way.

It is clear you do not have the ability to figure out what you are reading. I never said what you are accusing me of. I was pointing out in my last post that yes indeed rules have been broken for others and "sticking to the rules" did not have to ruin the US GP.

King, attack the ideas if you want, not the people. You can apologize anytime.

[J.D. King]

I'll be at Watkins Glen July 23-24 weekend. Perhaps you can meet me there and explain what your posts do say.
So much gets lost in the typed text, I surely must be reading you wrong.

[Jon Horgas]

Jim and problem, you guys are starting to sound like nascar fans. Fighting and racism. Get real.

[Jim Garry]

That's what happens when forum participants decide to stoop to personal attacks. Personal attacks have no place on any forum much less this one. I'm sorry that King angered me to the point of talking about a fight. I shouldn't have done that. Interestingly, his reply was one of at least equal response.

Leave personal attacks out of this you guys and discuss the issues.

[P.W. LeCain]

Can we still pick on French people? Wait...I'm French...zoot allures!


Vive Le Michelin!

[dc]

Ok, this schoolyard bickering can stop right here, right now. If you guys want to behave like children, take it elsewhere.

[J.D. King]

Jim,
You thinking my little criticism of your posts is a personal "attack" is quite outrageous. As is your implying that my invitation for you to join me at Watkins Glen to discuss the meanings of your posts is an acceptance of your offer for a "fight". I do enjoy good debate, which, by its very nature, criticises comments made by others.
Now, let's sit back and watch what the next moves are in the FIA world.

[John Robinson II]

As stated in the Goldmember movie..."two things I hate in this world...people intolerant of other people's nationalities, and the French!!" OK, it actually is the Dutch but they dont make Michelin tires.

John

[DaveW]

Excerpt from:

Peter Windsor on Wind Tunnel: "There will be repercussions"
Written by: SPEED Channel staff Charlotte, NC – 6/20/2005
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
“It’s the teams, these massively paid teams and drivers, who have a responsibility to the fans … not one of those Michelin team guys said ‘We made a horrendous mistake today and we take full responsibility. All they did was blame the FIA, blame Bernie, blame Ferrari, blame Bridgestone, blame everyone else, but they never actually blamed themselves.

[SIZE=3] Do you know how many teams from Michelin actually did the pre-USA tire test to select the correct tire for Indianapolis? … Two – Felipe Massa and Anthony Davidson – everyone else was at Silverstone.”[/SIZE]

[Jon Horgas]

Thank you David.

I wondered if there had been a test for the Michelin teams. Where was it conducted? What exactly was the cause of the failures Dave? I believe you to be the only qualified person to tell us on an engineering/technical side. Please help us mere mortals to get a grip (neat punn eh?) on the cause of the failures.

[Charles Warner]

For those whinging about the teams lining up and then pulling in off the pace lap, they have an agreement to take part in the race. If that agreement is not kept there are substantial financial penalties that are exacted by the FIA. By taking the initial green light they fullfilled that responsibility and were within their rights to withdraw based on safety reasons. It most certainly was not a "tease" for the fans. (Some of these same fans showed their class and couth by throwing beer cans onto the track: maybe all they deserve is NASCAR.)

As for Minardi and Jordan breaking their agreements, remember their 2006 budgets and travel expenses are dependent upon the points earned in 2005. The points these two teams gained are worth big bucks to them in terms of prize money and allotments for next year.

It was an unfortunate situation that should have been solved in some other way. As it is, it seems the teams and the FIA acted according to the extant rules and the responsibility for the fiasco would appear to rest on the shoulders of Michelin who, for whatever reasons, did not provide the proper equipment.

[racer27]

I forgot about the travel fund based upon constructors points. Sauber now has Joran nipping at thier heels. The implications both short term (This season) and Long Term (New Concorde Agreement) are pretty far reaching.

1 Renault 76
2 McLaren-Mercedes 63
2 Ferrari 63
4 Williams-BMW 47
4= Toyota 47
6 Red Bull Racing 22
7 Sauber-Petronas 12
8 Jordan-Toyota 11
9 Minardi-Cosworth 7

[Frank C]

I was surprised by the tone of Peter Windsor's comments on Wind Tunnel last night and amazed by David Hobbs' statements during the race broadcast to the effect that the Michelin drivers should have just gotten in and raced. Does Bernie have approval over the Speed Channel broadcasters and is Windsor paid by F1(Bernie) for his post-race and post-qualifying interviews?
- Frank C

[ste]

The implications if a tire does fail & a driver is killed, or worse yet a car or debris goes into the stands to injure or kill spectators? After being warned by Michelin not to race??

Holy crap! - if you thought the Senna thing took a long time to play out - imagine that scenario in this country overrun by lawyers?

Do you think Toyota (to choose any one of the 7) wants to be remembered as the company that killed 20 spectators at the USGP after being warned not to race?? (See Mercedes at LeMans 1955). The result there was a 50 year withdrawal from motor racing (not to mention the 70 or 80 dead people).

Do you think any of the major sponsors wanted to see a missile with their name all over the side of it shooting into the crowd over & over in news footage?

I realize this is hypothetical, but still possible & since this is business first, the decision made sense & in reality was probably made by Michelin's attorneys.

To blame Ferrari for racing is inane - they played exactly by the rules, came prepared & should not be penalized for doing so.

my 2 cents

Steve

[sarrcford]

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/200...ing.desperate/

[Thomas Copeland]

"There will be repercussions" --Peter Windsor (aka Bernie's mouthpiece, he was after all Bernie's former PR guy, how do think he got his job as post race interviewer?)...

Whata they going do? Ban all the teams and Michelin? HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!...

Bernie told the teams point blank on the grid that they are going to race. The teams told Bernie point blank "get stuffed" . For once the teams called Bernie/Max's bluff. I say bravo! These two clowns have raped the sport long enough.

Now Max has "summoned" the teams to Paris....What if all the teams and Michelin decided to tell Max where to stick his "summons" ? Whatcha going do? Ban all them all? HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!...

And that Charile Whiting (another ...ex Brabham team has been and Bernie puppet. Has worked for Bernie E. since the '70's and still does dispite his FIA Tech director title). His FIA memo to Michelin.HA! What a crock! Some FIA Tech Director. Total clown.

It's time these teams cut the rabble that calls itself the FIA/FOM loose once and for all. Don't wait until 2008 to do it. Start the GPWC now! Leave Bernie/Max/Ferrari to go play with themselves. With no one to race against Ferrari and Schumacher can go ahead and win another 10 world titles. Who cares?


...

[dc]

Quote:

Frank Williams said the Italian team [Ferarri], who use Bridgestone tyres, were blameless for everything that happened at Indianapolis. "They were totally innocent in this affair entirely," he said. "They had no reason not to race.



How anyone is putting the blame on Schumacher or Ferarri in this is astonishing, and beyond me. When you come prepared to race, with all of the right tools, and the majority makes a mistake of ignorance and pompousness, then expects the entire field to change setups and gearing to accomodate someone else's inadequate preparation, you cannot be in the wrong for competing under the guidelines set in place well before the event.


Ross Braun said it most pointedly, [paraphrased] "if Ferarri would have showed up ill-prepared and under equipped and asked for a handicap of the rest of the field, we would have been laughed at."

[Paul Tavilla]

I feel better now;just vented by sending my unpleasant message to Michelin (and France.) Autosport printed Tony George's statement in which he gave Michelin's website address where we can let them know our opinions.
Just sign in as a member of the site and post comments directly to Michelin's headquarters in France. www.michelinsport.com

[Thomas Copeland]

Dispite Ferrari denials more than several people close to the event have blame them for standing in the way of a solution. If they didn't then it must be the first time ever so excuse some of us for believing that they might have (and I still do).

Just seems that at the top of every F1 political dogpile there is Ferrari. Pushing everyone else down. Ferrari favoritism by the FIA is one reason stated for the breakway GPWC.

[EYERACE]

i shall not buy michelin, BFG or Uniroyal. After all, after my seventh place finish yesterday at indy, the endorsement contract i've received from Reebok will be all i need so as to retire. What? Just because the TV cameras didn't show me out there running my legs off in my Reeboks, you don't believe that eye finished seventh? Hey, i admit it.....it was eye who dropped my water bottle on the track by accident....decided to not go back and pick it up because that was just when i started gaining on one of the Minardi........... ............wanna buy a bridge? but seriously eye will not buy michelin or BFG or Uniroyal for anything that needs a tire.

[Kris P.]

As Dave pointed out, Peter Windsor said it all:

“It’s the teams, these massively paid teams and drivers, who have a responsibility to the fans … not one of those Michelin team guys said ‘We made a horrendous mistake today and we take full responsibility. All they did was blame the FIA, blame Bernie, blame Ferrari, blame Bridgestone, blame everyone else, but they never actually blamed themselves. Do you know how many teams from Michelin actually did the pre-USA tire test to select the correct tire for Indianapolis? … Two – Felipe Massa and Anthony Davidson – everyone else was at Silverstone.”

Honestly, if you were running on Avons, or Hoosiers, or Goodyears, and another manufacturer had a problem, what would you do? This is not Ferrari's fault nor the FIA's. It's Michelin's fault. Bottom line, they didn't do their homework.

[Dave Belz]

From an AFP (whoever that is) story on the 'cost' of yesterday's farce...

"I think it's the worst possible advert for Formula One at the moment," admitted BAR Honda chief Nick Fry, who also took the advice of Michelin not to race.

"To only have six cars running, and none of them in (contention in) the championship, it's a great shame."

...THIS FROM BAR???? Must be all those decimal places in their budget, they just missed their own zero in the points standings. I wonder what that championship race will look like after the FIA hearing on 6/29? I'm with David Hobbs on this one, dock them ALL of their championship points to date.

Now, stop the elitist, racist, nationalist - personal (AND TEAM) attacks and discuss the issues. If I wanted to read junk like that, I'd be on Fox or Speed's forums, not this one. I want to read what intelligent and involved people have to say about 'my' sport and the issues that affect it.

Can someone please pick up the conversation from here. Start a new thread if you must.

Dave

[B Smith]

What if it had been Micheal instead of Ralph who crashed on Friday? Would the FIA have bent over backwards to find a solution? Michelin screwed up, admitted it , asked for help and got the runaround from whoever pulls the strings on the Charlie Whiting puppet (Read; Bernie). This is all about the GPWC vs the FIA and nothing else. Sorry for you guys who paid to watch it. I turned it off, worked on my car for an hour and then watched the Champ cars.

[Agitator]

I can't believe some of you actually believe that Ferrari actually could have reversed the decision of the FIA if ONLY they had agreed to a chicane! Formula One is NOT a democracy. You can't get the teams together and simply agree that you're going to change the rules. You conspiracy theorists need to get a grip. You can place whatever percentage of blame you want on Michelin, the FIA, Max Mosely, Bernie, etc., but to make the assumption that Ferrari had any control is preposterous....and I don't even like Ferrari.

Regardless of who Windsor, Hobbs, Varsha or Matchett work for (or used to work for) they actually performed their best announcing job yet, despite a crappy race. They had the nuts to call it like it was. I've lost respect for much of F1, but have new respect for the announcers.

James

[Daryl DeArman]

I am not a Ferarri fan, I am even less of a MS fan and far below that is my admiration for Tony George. SO I'd love to point fingers at any or all of them, but I don't think any of them are to blame beyond perhaps a poor resurfacing job. But you know, all the teams had to deal with the same circumstances. It is akin to someone blaming weather conditions for a poor showing, when everyone had to deal with the same conditions.

I am one who DOES BELIEVE that Ferrari could have voted for a chicane and IT WOULD have happened, not because they are Ferrari, but because, they were one of 3 teams voting no, with just a tad bit of influence over the other Bridgestone teams. If Ferarri had supported it, the support for the chicane among teams likely would have been unanimous. No chicane, no participants. Having said that, I would not have voted for it either.

Nor would I have raced for zero points. We are talking tons of cash, for what? I could have given every one of the 100,000+ spectators their money back and would spend less than I would spend to attend and compete in the race.

The biggest reason I was turned off by NASCRAP years ago is I believe in the SPORT, you are given a set of rules, you do your homework, test, do more homework, show up to race and kick butt. If you get your butt kicked because someone worked a little harder...then tough poop. Go back and try again, if you want a rule change try to affect the change for the following season. You don't change the rules of the game, during the game, to keep both sides happy unless you are doing it for the SHOW. Trying to keep the manufacturers happy (involved) and spectators emotionally involved. Exactly what NASCRAP does real well. I feel that the only rules that should be changed during the season are those of safety issues. Which I don't believe this to be. The Michellin teams could have gone slower, subjected the tires to less stress, and/or changed tires often and suffered the poor finishing results. The teams would not have been forced to race on unsafe rubber in an unsafe manner. But any Michellin team who did race, against the manufacturer's recommendations would have certainly had some extra vulnerability should disaster strike.

I see it as a no win situation, all the way around as soon as Michellin advises the teams that the tire is not safe.

As far as taking away championship points....I say Hoooey. On what grounds? If I followed the rules as written and you don't like the outcome. Then do a better job of rule writing next time.

The ONLY POSITIVE I see out of this whole situation is Champ Car seized the opportunity to try to get some disgruntled F1 fans to Cleveland.

--Daryl DeArman, my opinions are just that my opinions, they don't neccessarily represent anyone elses' viewpoint on my team, my family, my blah, blah, blah....

[Mark H]

So now a tire co. should be able to black mail F1 into changing the track layout to suite them because they serewed up AND then have the gall to blame everyone else..like the FIA and Ferrari just to take the heat off them!!

This is a CLEAR cut deal, all the talk is CRAP!!!!!!!!!!!
1.Mich. messed up
2.The fans got the shaft
3.Mich. won't man up that their tires cost their teams a whole racing weekend.

There are big deals behind the sceans too.. Mich tires come OE on many of the F1 teams-engine mfgs. street cars, so they have to save face on that front because that is where the big $$ is anyway. BMW,Benz,Renult,Toyota,Honda.

Man Ill bet Mich. hopes this dosen't get out to to general public? You know win on Sun. sell on Mon? Or should it be chicken out on Sun. loose your OE fitment on Mon?

So these tires were unsafe??? What do yall think going 220 mph is...SAFE?

[Daryl DeArman]

So now a tire co. should be able to black mail F1 into changing the track layout to suite them because they serewed up AND then have the gall to blame everyone else..like the FIA and Ferrari just to take the heat off them!!

Not so sure you were responding to my post. If you were, I did a poor job of making it clear what I was trying to say.

I don't think Michellin should be able to blackmail F1 into changing the track. They asked, the answer was no, they chose not to participate. They advise their teams not to participate and given our worlds litigous society and all the politics behind the scenes, no Michellin team in their right mind would have gone out there and raced.

Now, all their teams spent all that money and got zero points. Sure FIA or Ferrari could have said YES, but they didn't, and I wouldn't have either.

Like I said, bad deal all around. Except ChampCar seizing the momment.