Track fees for pit carts

[dennis]

Hi Mr. Rand, even though I am not a competitor I am interested and concerned about the issues of fees at the track in question. Can you please keep me informed on this issue by direct e-mail? I am thinking about the scooter Ronnie used to drive around on and we still used to get around the infield for customer service. I would have to let the boss know if this goes in effect. The effects that this could have on our business can be quite profound. I am also worried about the talk of the event fees going up so high. It is already quite an expense to service the event, I would hate to see what could happen. My e-mail is ds@competitiontire.com or the shop phone is 610/375-6191. Also as a side note, have you called Joan lately? Thanks for all your help, Dennis@Goodyear/CTE...

[Scott Gesford]

Mike,
Cranky or not, at least I got some resolution--thanks Anne C.

Mike, you may have missed my point--it was not about the fees, it was rather about how easy it is to complain in relative anonymity (total in some cases) on a bullentin board/forum rather than grasping the bull by the horns and doing something about it. I realize there are plenty of readers to whom this may not apply so don't get all riled up. If I missed your point then I apologize.

Where's the anonymity? It's not like anyone is posting under names like 'Racerx' or something like that. We're not allowed to comment on rules that regions have? Who made that rule? I tried in 2000 to get that bike rule changed and had no luck.

[Marshall Mauney]

Actually, all, the "registration fee" for pit support vehicles at Summit is going away. The region charged the fee, not the track, and the original idea behind the fee was to use the funds to hire a paddock marshal to help control the land rush and enforce rules like no children under 16 driving motorized vehicles anywhere in the paddock. (Yes, that is in the supps). But we never hired one.

WARNING - Off-Topic post!

Personally, I'd love to see a paddock marshall to control the land rush, and a small fee would be worthwhile. The paddock at Summit Point is , er, umm, rustic enough that it's easy to end up without a workable spot for certain types of cars (formula and sports racers come to mind.) I have been to events where the paddock marshalls enforced rules that allowed purpose-built cars (low ground clearance) to have first access to paved spots - this would be welcomed!

[At last year's Summit Point national, there were a significant number of open-wheelers that were paddocked in mud that was significantly deeper than our ground clearance - getting into and out of our 'spots' was a 30 to 45-minute ordeal. I got to the track early Thursday evening to set up for Friday practice, and there were NO remaining paved spots available for us, although there were LOTS of street-based cars with SUV-like ground clearance parked on the black stuff. I would gladly pay a few $$$ for a reserved paved spot.]

Marshall Mauney
Steel Cities Region

[Jerry Santucci 33]

hey guys....
back to your orginal questions..... as of the last we raced - 03 (long story) beaverun, mid-ohio, nelsons and watkins glen did NOT charge for a golfcart........
many good points brought up though about bikes, carts, kids - etc. in the pits....... this can cause problems as stated above. we all must police our crews. for their safety and that of others at the race.
my two cents..........

[John LaRue]

Who cares if it is off topic? No need to appologize in my book. Anyway, you struck a big nerve with me on your experience. The paddock does need to be divided out for cars with and without ground clearance. When we go to Mid Ohio there is absolutely no way we can paddock off the pavement unless we run the motorcycle wheels. This is a pain in the rear, but it saves the car.

It really gripes me when all of the paved space is then "reserved" for the 4x4 race cars at Runoffs. I understand there is money changing hands for the corp tents, but couldn't those be put out in the fields? While I hate to see additional costs, I would be glad to pay something so that I didn't have to worry about the trip from paddock to track. Better yet, to avoid having to leave early simply to make sure I get a space.

Now the better question is how do we get the front office, regions, etc... to understand this and take action?

[Barry Haynie]

Come on Scott, you know what I meant--I was not referring to any one specific topic, such as this thread, but rather to the posters that use screen names without revealing themselves in their profile. Its very easy to not take repsonsibility for comments when done behind a veil of secrecy. All Forums in general suffer this defect and I meant no insult or denegration to any poster here unless the shoe fitted. You and many on this forum forthrightly post using their name so we all can know who we are talking to.

[M.L.Sauce]

John et all, I think the Runoffs is the only major event that Mid Ohio makes money on.They sell everything they can including the paved paddock.I believe as long as we accept these issues and don't have a united voice against them we get exaxtly what they choose for us to have.The Runoffs, having the number of entrants it attracts(724 in 04) the paddock issues will not be solved at Mid Ohio.They will only get worse as the number of entries increases and Mid Ohio has no plans to improve the paddock.We will not have this problem at Heartland Park.They will have room for 1000 paddock spots on pavement that are flat.The golf cart,pit bikes and pit cart fees are something that we should voice our opinion about to the Regions as well as the tracks.The Regions and the tracks are depending on not having to defend their position on these kinds of charges.Call them on it.

[Michael Rand]

Thanks gang, as ever the apexspeed membership has lots of good information.
I have spoken to three of the main insurance agencies writing track insurance and have found out some interesting info.
Mid Ohio is one of a very small number, like 2-3, of road courses that uses an insurance company called ASIG. It seems ASIG has an exclusion in their track general liability policy regarding all carts, quads, and the like. It seems the fee, while excessive in all the insurance guys estimation, is to provide a pool to protect the track, or maybe the track buys a seperate policy to cover just cart usage and claims.
The other major players will not cover personal injury related to a cart accident but do cover liability. The injured party would then sue the track for medical coverage where they would have coverage.
I have spoken to over a dozen tracks personally since starting this thread and NONE charge entrants fee to use their own equipment, regardless of the event, NONE, with the glaring exception of Mid Ohio and that insurance issue. Several do require registering them with either the club/region or track, but no fees. Not for ALMS, not Grand Am, not Watkins Glen, not Road Atlanta, etc etc etc , none of them.
Of course none of this even touches on the administration of trying to implement this new direction- people, cash, security, traffic issues. And then the track can justify raising rental rates because more staff is required to implement their own rules!
One must ask, where this slippery slope of charging people a fee to use their personal equipment might end ?
Want to bring in your own fuel ? Fine, but there is a per gallon fee to the track for lost revenue from not selling you gas.
Want to bring in food and beverage for the crew ? Fine, but there is a fee to the track concession to make up for lost revenue.
Want to run a compressor all day for electricity ? OK, but there is a noise fee to make up for not paying to hook up to track power.
Make up your own examples, it never ends.
If a track wants to outright ban carts, quads, etc, well, we can always decide to go to a more user friendly facility, but for them to stick their greedy hands in our wallets for a fee to use our own equipment is just not right. One might even say, gouging the customer.
If a track wants to ban hooking into their power, fine, but be up front about it instead of saying there is a $50.00 PER DAY fee. That's right, we haven't even mentioned that one, I was so ballistic about the golf cart issue, this facility has also dictated a $50/day fee to hook in to their power. Get your generators ready for the season. Prepare to share power with your paddock neighbors. It is gonna be noisey.
Understand, none of this is any SCCA Region or other sanctioning bodies doing. It is completely the tracks.
I remain hopeful of being able to make a difference in this particular case, no guarantees. I will keep all informed as things progress. If this succeeds here it will spread virus-like across the country.
Thanks to Carnut, great input regarding this actually increasing paddock traffic with much larger vehicles as all entrants use street vehicles and or tow vehicles to get fuel, tires, drag a car around, etc etc. instead of space efficent carts. Pretty short sighted, actually.
Thanks again to all,
Mike Rand

[Chas Shaffer]

John,
I agree completely about the paddock space issue. Of all the tracks I go to Summit Point is by far the worst but it certainly exists in other places. I've personally watched WDC Region BOD members roping off areas before other entrants were allowed in at Summit. How did I see it? I rent the track prior to the national every year.

If the region doesn't do something about it I will offer to rope off area's for any formula car driver who supplies me with their name, car number, class, trailer size and awning size. I will only do so in compliance with the event supps and with the permission of BSR management. I'll post the paddock map a few days before the event showing where I'll reserved your space. I want to go on record that I'm completely AGAINST this policy but if those are the rules then I'll play by them. I showed up for a regional last year at Summit at 8 AM Friday morning and although there were plenty of open paddock spaces they were all roped off. I left the event. I don't want to see that happen to any of you.

Please do not ask me to let you in early for the event. It is against my track rental agreement with Summit Point.

Barry, what's the big deal if someone post's anonymously. As the assistant RE for the DC Region I don't think you need to know the name of a person in order to listen to an idea or constructive criticism. In fact there should be a way to do it anonymously. Let's face it we've all seen the DC Region retaliate. It's the biggest reason I keep my mouth shut with the exception of a few vents on this site. Btw... I thought exactly the same thing Scott did when I read your post. I have a rather lengthy response that I chose not to post.

[Barry Haynie]

Chas,
I don't disagree. I guess your pointing out that as an official of the Region I should be willing to listen and address issues and concerns--you are absolutly correct and if you review the thread that is exactly what I did. Now we know that at least for this concern we have eliminated it. Because your point is so good is exactly why I have problems with not knowing who is making the suggestion or voicing the concern--I may need to contact them off the board to discuss. If one needs action on something, find someone who can help and address it to them. That's all I was trying to point out.

Do you have any space left on your track rental before the SP National?

[Chas Shaffer]

Test days are full but if something opens up I'll let you know.

fyi... you can send an email to just about anyone who posts on the site (even under an alias) by clicking on their name and looking at their profile. I don't know if it's a requirement to supply an email address but I've never looked for someone's address and not seen it.

[Marshall Mauney]

Want to bring in food and beverage for the crew ? Fine, but there is a fee to the track concession to make up for lost revenue.

Mike -

IIRC, this was actually an issue at Portland. PIR is legally a city park, and there is a concession contract with a local company that covers food service and beer. The track lease states (or at least it used to) that you could not bring food beyond that for an individual's personal consumption, and that any group meals must be catered by the contracted service. In short, you can bring in a sandwich for yourself, but you can't have a paddock party for workers, officials, stewards, your class, etc without buying the food from them. This caused a firestorm; I don't recall how (or if) it was resolved.

Beer is even worse, but this is a legal issue; the track holds a license for the sale of alcoholic beverages, so you can't legally brown-bag.

It seems that every track that isn't club-owned has some sort of screwy issue to deal with....

Marshall Mauney
Steel Cities Region

[Michael Rand]

Well, gang, we won one finally. This issue appears to be settled, at least for the time being, and the track in question will not be trying to charge a use fee from entrants to use their own golf carts, pit carts, quads, etc. The jury is still out on motorized scooters. Fingers crossed.
They have also dropped the $50 fee for plugging in to power. They may simply not allow it, but at least there confrontation and dollar issues are not an issue. Bring a generator, borrow power from a neighbor, just be prepared, like all good boyscouts are.
Thanks for all the replies to the original posting, that information was helpful.
See everyone soon.
Remember, there is going to be a special Formula Ford/NARRC Club Ford race on Memorial Day Monday May 30 at Lime Rock like 2004's 35th Anniversary Race.
I'd like to call it "The David Dexter Trophy Race" but am open to suggestions.

2004 was a bad year for the northeast racing community with Goodyears Ronnie Stiller [actually Nov 2003], FF racer Paul Tariello, Charlie Gibson, LRP builder Jim Vaill, David of course, Omer Norton, Doug Shierson--not a New Englander but a great supporter and friend of all racers, among to many others passing.

Mike Rand

[Jim Marinangel]

What makes the Mid Ohio charges for scooters, etc. even more obnoxious is that the fee only covers their use in the paddock area. Unless the vehicle is license-able AND has a license plate on the back they will not allow the vehicle to be used on the main road, across the bridge or anywhere but the paddock. (I'm sure glad I never threw away that expired 1999 plate from my old motorcycle....)

[Chas Shaffer]

For those of you coming to Summit Point this year I just got word that the RSV charge (golf cart, scooter) WILL still be applied. It was proposed to be discontinued but it was voted down by the BoD.

I gotta laugh at this. Only in Washington DC will they tax your golf cart. What's next... maybe a dog tax?

[stonebridge20]

Rand, Sounds like you dodged a bullet with the $50 per event "golf cart tax"

49 events at Limerock a year X $50 per = $2,450
Damn...with all the money you just saved yourself, you can replace that sorry looking golfcart! Or atleast the ignition lock so me and Treadway can't steal it anymore with a screwdriver!

See ya soon, Mike

[Larry]

Chas,

I'm sorry to hear that the DC Region has decided to continue this tax...it's not as if they need the money. The region exceeded their projected income by nearly $30,000 last year! In spite of this, they raised the price of drivers school and retained this tax.

Why don't you run for the board and see if you can restore some sanity to the group?

Larry Oliver
International Racing Products

[Michael Rand]

Hey Agnif, that sorry looking golf cart with the easy to start switch ? It's all part of a plan. I have it heavily insured, just hoping someone really does take it away !
Gonna buy some ugly neon spray paint and some rum and "fix" it.
You going to Mexico for Jere's big deal ? It's coming up soon, isn't it ?

[stonebridge20]

Rand,

Yea, I'm going to Mexico 2/23/05. Who do you think is in charge of hog tieing and throwing him on the plane? He IS going to get married you know!

Agnif

[Michael Rand]

Well, give him a, um, er, well, ok, a wet willie from me. An Tracy. Have fun, don't drink the water but the Tequila will be ok. Give Tara a kiss and a hug from us as well. See you all soon. Mike & Tracy Rand

[stonebridge20]

Rand,
Give him a call and ask him about what I "got" him for a wedding present! Press release soon!

Agnif

[Anne]

I apologize for speaking too soon regarding the RSV fees at Summit. The BOD overruled the competition committe, and the fee remains in effect. I'm not on the BOD, and therefore have no information on the issue.

As far as paddock issues at Summit, which a number of you have complained about: well, yes, duh, we have problems. We are not Mid-Ohio, Watkins Glen, or any other track which runs IMSA/NASCAR/CART/IRL races. And has acres of parking/paddock. But we still love our home, with all its limitations. And I think we do our damdest to get you all in there somewhere.

Let me point out some of the issues we had to deal with at last year's national, especially given the fact that several days of rain rendered at least 25% of our paddock totally unusable.

Several crew members ( who, mind you, are not entitled to paddock parking passes) arrived several days early to reserve spots, and then complained bitterly when they were asked to move motorhomes, SUVs, etc..

Several competitors also arrived several days early, and staked out as many as four paddock spaces for what actually turned out to be only one competing car, complained bitterly about being asked to move ANYTHING.

Unlike our regional series, very few competitors arrive prepared to share spaces. A few did, and thank you.

Why is it we could get nearly 400 cars into the paddock for a double regional, but have trouble getting 250 in for a national?

Guys, we don't try to be unfriendly. But you REALLY need to help us out here, instead of complaining that we don't accommodate you. I'm sorry our paddock isn't bigger, but it is what it is, and you all know what it is. A reserved paddock solution such as has been proposed only gives preference; it doesn't give everybody a spot. We can do better than that.

[Scott Gesford]

The first step to better the situation of parking is not to allow any saving of spaces. If you are there with a tow rig you get a spot. In the fall October race I was about the 25th car to enter the pits on Thurs afternoon and had a hard time finding a spot on the pavement that wasn't taped off!
Has Mr. Scott ever been approached about paving more areas?

[Chas Shaffer]

I agree with Scott, parking should be first come first serve. Alternatively have someone park us like they do at other tracks. I arrived Friday morning before the double regional and could not paddock even though there were plenty of open spaces. Everything was roped off. You can get more regional guys in because typically they have smaller rigs.

Since I'm the guy who always rents the track before the national I will make sure anyone testing with me only takes the space they need for the number of cars they have. With that said if the policy remains that we can reserve space by roping off areas be prepared to see most of the paddock roped off. At 5 PM I'm going to rope off space for every competitor who asks me to. Again I will only do so in compliance with the supplemental regulations and the approval of BSR.

Larry, what's the process for runnig for the board of directors? I've never seen a posting in Straight Pipe explaining it. I will gladly run and I will attend all the BoD meetings if elected.

[Marshall Mauney]

First, let me say 'thank you' for your response. The first step to solving ANY problem is communication. Please take all comments as being in the spirit of healthy discussion, and not as 'bashing'.

As far as paddock issues at Summit, which a number of you have complained about: well, yes, duh, we have problems. [...] But we still love our home, with all its limitations. And I think we do our damdest to get you all in there somewhere.

Understood. We all have the same goal here.

Let me point out some of the issues we had to deal with at last year's national, especially given the fact that several days of rain rendered at least 25% of our paddock totally unusable.

Keep in mind that 'unusable' means different things to different types of cars. I would call the space I was in last year 'unusable' for a formula car, although the SS Neon team paddocked next to me had no problems with a similar situation (other than getting their tools messy from the mud).

Several crew members ( who, mind you, are not entitled to paddock parking passes) arrived several days early to reserve spots, and then complained bitterly when they were asked to move motorhomes, SUVs, etc..

Several competitors also arrived several days early, and staked out as many as four paddock spaces for what actually turned out to be only one competing car, complained bitterly about being asked to move ANYTHING.

Ya know, lots of people have complained about being fuel tested, but that hasn't eliminated the process. I'm sorry they were offended, but that's the way it is - we have to do what's right for the club as a whole. [I wouldn't like having to move, either, but if they can't justify the space they've taken.....]

Why is it we could get nearly 400 cars into the paddock for a double regional, but have trouble getting 250 in for a national?

National teams have bigger...er.....equipment, and take more space per car. Seriously, nationals bring out the semi aand 43-foot trailer crowd in big way. Interestingly, I've been at other large events where the paddock chief tells you what space you get. You deal with it or go home.

Guys, we don't try to be unfriendly. But you REALLY need to help us out here, instead of complaining that we don't accommodate you. I'm sorry our paddock isn't bigger, but it is what it is, and you all know what it is. A reserved paddock solution such as has been proposed only gives preference; it doesn't give everybody a spot.

If anything, the problem is that the region is TOO friendly, allowing the early arrivers to take whatever space they want, with no regard to what is best for the event. Frankly, I don't give a rip if Joe Schmoe with his SS Protege has a semi rig and a motorhome - he shouldn't be able to mortgage out paved space that would handle 4 FFs. If he wants to use a 1/4 acre, that's fine, but not on the paved pad.

I would suggest that reserved paddock spaces would solve the worst part of the problem IF it were designated that formula and sports racers got first pick, with GTs getting whatever is left when they're done. This is solely based on ground clearance. Production cars have ground clearance measured in multiple inches; Fs and SRs measure it in the 16ths. GTs are in between, but they need flat space, too. Our cars simply won't roll into some unpaved spots that are perfectly fine for SS/T/Prod cars.

I hear your point that the teams need to be reasonable. That said, I tow a 20' enclosed, and use a 10x20 canopy off the side, using an F-350 to tow. This takes, IMHO, a reasonable amount of space for a national effort. I'll take whatever paved, relatively level space you'll give me as a paddock spot that this will fit into, and I'd bet that the vast majority of single-car teams would, as well. That's reasonable (I think). Granted, there's not enough pavement at Summit to cover the whole field at this size, but we could probably fit all the Fs and SRs and most of the GTs, leaving good, level, grassed area for the rest.

The trouble is, we can't, as individuals, police the other competitors en masse. When we arrive Thursday night and the space is already taken by half the reasonable number of cars, there's not much we can do, other than b1tch about it. The only way to effectively deal with this is to set rules and have the track management and/or hosting region enforce them. Or, we could form a lynch mob and police the paddock space ourselves....

Thoughts?

Marshall Mauney
Steel Cities Region - F500 #64

[Anne]

Thanks for your input, guys. As best I know, here's the latest:

Scott, the issue of additional paving will be discussed with Mr. Scott. I know there are zoning and land-use issues involved that include a determination of what percentage of his total acreage can be paved, but I don't know for sure what the restrictions are.

Everybody: the National supps do not allow for saving spaces. Not last year, and not this year. MARRS supps did, but we are rewriting those as well. So be sure to read the supps when they are available. (They should be posted this Friday, Feb. 25. You will need to go to the on-line registration calendar to find them.) So Chas, please don't plan to rope off the entire paddock.

I do plan to be there when the land rush begins, and I do hope to deputize a few helpers to try to keep pace. If I can't get my golf cart out in time, look for the yellow Mini ...

I certainly understand the bigger equipment ... er toys ... issues. But another reason we get more people in at regionals is because they combine and share, and by doing so occupy less than their allotted space. I'd be a WHOLE lot more sympathetic to the idea of saving spaces if I felt it was actually going to reduce the space needed ... i.e., 4 cars in 3 spaces, etc..

And Marshall, your 20' enclosed trailer, canopy, and F350 will fit in just about any paddock space we have available ... and that is a reasonable expectation. But others added a motorhome to the mix, and a couple of crew vehicles, and then got pissy about being asked to move. That's what I ran into several times last year (or my first foray into the paddock marshalling business ...)

By "unusable" paddock, I meant areas that were so swampy you'd need a wrecker to get your car into and out of the space. Let's pray the weather is far more cooperative this year. And yes, we have considered changing the date. But look at the NEDIV calendar, and tell me where we'd move it to ...

So anyway, I don't have all the answers yet. But I'm willing to entertain ideas. And I don't think we'll have solutions this year besides not roping off the entire paddock, but I'll be working on it. for the future. Saving the paved areas for those who need it and directing others to level grass is yes a possibility.

Thanks, all, for your suggestions.

[Jim Marinangel]

For years I bitterly complained about the landrush mentality at the June Sprints - and I was RE of Chicago Region during some of it. We finally instituted a reservation system which has eliminated about 90 percent of the problems. (We're still trying to work out the last 10%.) It does require a lot of work on the region's part but at least the choice spaces don't just automatically go to those who can afford to squat at the track for a day before it opens. If anyone wants to know how it's done let me know. I'm sure our members would be happy to explain the system to yours.

[Jeff Owens]

Move the date!!!! I froze last year as a spectator, even with lots of clothes. Summit is either miserably hot and dusty or cold and a swamp. I mean we are talking about West Virginia!!! JK

I can remeber when the National was in August @ Summit and there never has been any parking in the paddock area. Maybe they can paddock some folks at the Jefferson and Shenendohah tracks, then they can install some traffic lights!!!! And they have those nice new garages!!!!!!!! Curious to see how this works out. Good thing my car is not ready, someone can have my space!!!

[Scott Gesford]

[QUOTE=Anne]Thanks for your input, guys. As best I know, here's the latest:


Everybody: the National supps do not allow for saving spaces. Not last year, and not this year. MARRS supps did, but we are rewriting those as well.

Anne, Thank you. This will be a huge improvement.

[Anne]

HA! If this were a perfect world!

Jeff, you live there. Yes, I remember when we had an August national. I also remember when we had TWO nationals, before it was decided that each NEDIV region could only do one. I'm not sure whether cold and rainy/sleety is beter or worse than 99 and humid ... either way, we suffer. It is WV ...

Jim: yes please let me know how Chicago handles this paddock thing. A few years ago when I was just a newbie to our comp. commottiee I remember reading a SportsCar article about a couple who had gotten worker of the year award for paddock. And I thought then we should have contacted them for info/advice, but we didn't. I am more than happy to steal ideas from people who have worked it out already (but the Runoffs/Mid-O thing is just a bit too fascist for me). Tell me who to talk to ...

Anne

[Larry]

Chas,

I'm not sure of the exact procedure to run for the board. I'd suggest you talk with a current board member--perhaps Barry Haynie or Jerry Wannarka. It is my understanding that there is a nominating committee, and then a general election. I think you would make a wonderful addition!

Larry Oliver

PS I'm heading to drivers school in March, driving my 88 Reynard FF.

[dave parker]

Chas Shaffer
I have a copy of the WDC Region bylaws that outline the board of directors election procedure. If you would like a copy please email me at dave@ogracing.com.

cheers
dave parker

[KevinFirlein]

parking should be 1st come 1st served end of story. Give formula/ sports racers preference ? You gotta ve kidding. Lets just add to the elitest attitude rep that our classes have. summit point doesnt not have a lack of paddock parking. What they have is a lack of paved paddock parking. Very big difference there. Its why i get there early enough to park whever I want and still park in the rocks and grass next to the bathroom building. I dont want to have to listen to all the crying that goes on arguing over black top. Kinda like what you are reading here.

Move the date ? dont think so mate. the date was moved to where it is now for one very big reason. Entries. We went from getting 150 or so entries to over 240 by moving it to the 1st race of the NE season. And if you think its cold in WV in april where should we race the 1st race, NHIS ? The april date gives the region the most entries and keeps the entry fee from going to around $300.00. Sure there is a chance of cold or rain. By rain tires and bring a coat cause unlike nascar we race in the rain and its damn fun.

I spent 2 and a half years on the comp commitee for the WDCR and life is quite as simple as some would like it to be. Every solution that makes 1 guy happy is gonna piss off 3 others. Case in point reseved parking. It works great at the sprints for a one time a year event but i dont think it would be so easy for a 7 weekend marrs series. Who wants to park with who, how many cars the various prep shops might be bringing on a given weekend and race dates that are close enough that all this info would be overlapping. Couldnt pay me enough to try and keep track of howe many spots does hagermann need this race or that. " lets see is he bringing 19 cars to marrs 1 or was it 22? " And even with paid reseved parking you still have to get in line early anyways. If i reserved a spot along the back of the paved area i cant get back in there once the other spaces get filled in around it.

My best solution ? Use some of the track improvemnt fund and pay to have the roads in the area that we cleared behind th epaved section " tar and chipped ". Youd still be parking on the grass but atleast the roads wouldnt mud over in the rain. And yes the region should pay for it not the track. The track doesnt have competitors crying every race ,we the region do.

Kevin

[Purple Frog]

Anne,

Contact Fletcher Williams in the Atlanta Region. We kid him unmercifully, but he and his wife have in the last few years made life a lot better in the paddock at Road Atlanta. They may be able to give you some pointers.

[Anne]

Purple Frog and Jim Marinangel: Please send me *(PM is fine) contact info for your people who have worked out some kind of paddock plan, and I will be happy to discuss it with them offline. I'm getting some input that suggests that these arrangements may not work well for us at Summit, but I am for sure willing to listen to what has worked for others.

I will say I'm also hearing overwhelmingly that most of you don't like the saved spaces idea. Which was of course an idea we thought might help. So we'll revisit. And as I said, this is no longer in the National supps ... so we don't encourage and will not enforce it. BUt remember that I will be the johnny on the spot go to girl, and may not be able to catch them all. Anybody willing to be deputized to help me out?

Now then. I have to add this, because I've cruised the forum. Froggie, any chance you're coming to play with us? I've never heard a better party plan anywhere ...

[Anne]

And ps. I also meant to apologize for the way we've hijacked the thread....

[Tifosi]

Last year Blackhawk implemented a pit vehicle tax and now Road America has followed suit. I guess they want us to use our tow vehicles as pit support transportation. Now that would cut down on the congestion, accidents etc.



http://www.cendiv-scca.org/01news/RA...e%20Letter.pdf

http://www.cendiv-scca.org/01news/RA...0Agreement.pdf

http://www.cendiv-scca.org/01news/bf...cle_policy.pdf

[Keith Carter]

I asked Mike Engelke about the policy at Blackhawk (not sure about Road America) and if it's a street licensed vehicle like our Zuma, it doesn't abide by the rules implemented since we should have our own insurance on it.

[John LaRue]

I suppose it is age, but this is just getting to be too much. Entry fees are now well in excess of $200 for a paltry amount of track time and what we do get is split among so many classes it is more like driving on the toll road than a race track.

I would like to see the "new insurance requirements" or policy and have to question the new "fee" and what it is providing for. If we sign up do we now have liability coverage for any damages or injuries that we might cause with these vehicles? Only in the instance of a spectator event would this be an issue anyway. Under normal circumstances everyone who is on the premises has signed a waiver of liability and is essentially "self insured". If we have proof of insurance for our pit vehicle are we exempted from this fee? It looks to me like another place to extract money. I believe that we should all use our trucks and vans and leave the pit carts, atv's, mopeds and such at home. Just make a living nightmare out of the paddock and see how long this goes on.

Last season I only attended one SCCA event and instead participated in some kart races. It was a refreshing change to be welcomed to the track, pay an entry fee of less than $30, practice fees of $10, have garage space on pit lane for an entire season for $1200.....and the list goes on.

And we wonder why it is that the partipation numbers are down? Give me a break.

Oh, and by the way the last time I was at BHF I think I was yelled at everytime I came off the track. Sharon and I were by ourselves and paddocked on the drive near the cross over. Because of the low clearance I would have to get out and put my transport wheels on the front to get the car off the road. Within minutes of my arrival at the trailer and even when I was in the process of changing the wheels on at least one occasion I would be reprimanded for having my car on the road. While I understand the need to keep the road clear, you can only do so much so quickly and the facility is not exactly formula car friendly. I even resorted to changing the wheels near the "alignment pad" and still got my butt chewed. After that BS I will likely never return despite truly enjoying the track.

I think it is time that we give a clear message to the track owners and others that there are other things we can be doing with our dollars.

[Jim Gustafson]

Now that I have to insure my golf cart/support vehicle at Road America, I'm interested in knowing if any of you have found a source for this coverage and the cost of the premium?

Thanks,
Jim Gustafson
SCCA Racer Since 1970