Formula 1000

[Mike B]

Richard,

Which part of the proposed rule package are you referring to? Or are you referring to Sean's mention of waiting for someone to build him a new car? If you haven't already ruined that chassis in your shop by putting a Zetec in it, drop an R1 in it and make your diff/rear suspension design a reality. I'd be happy to test it and I'm sure someone would buy it.

Sean,
I intentionally left out any mention of carbon or kevlar because I see no reason why it can't be used in F1000 or FC for that matter. Nearly every other class permits it's use. However, I think I might add a stipulation that it can't be used as a stress-bearing panel, especially a floor. I'm afraid it might be too much of a safety concern. Feel free to use it everywhere else, though. In fact, I'm working on a wizzy CF diffuser and front wings!

All,
Here is a direct link to the first draft of the F1000 rules. Keep the feedback coming!
http://home.new.rr.com/gyrodynamics/...ion%20Rule.pdf

[carnut169]

In fact, I'm working on a wizzy CF diffuser and front wings!

We need to talk about you making two of these..... love wizzy stuff.

(BTW- those aluminum rub strips we put down the edges of the current diffuser are the bomb. I've replaced them 3 times, diffuser undamaged. Might want to consider that on any of your diffusers. It would be sweet to drill them all exactly the same, counter sink, and sell replacements. Just a thought.)

[R. Pare]

Mike B. :

My statement was in reference to Marshal's thought that F1000's would be/could be legal in FC. As the rules stand right now, they would not be legal if you started off with a chassis that was not originally homologated as an FC pre '93. Only way they could be made legal is with a rules change.

IF you could find an old motorcycle engined FC, you could probably legally update the engine and run it in FC using the original homologation papers. Converting and old air-cooled Super Vee to a motorcycle engine would most likely require new papers ( a new non-VW engine would mean that it is no longer an "Air Cooled Super Vee", which is what the original papers would indicate), which by the rules are now only issued to F2000's.

[Mike B]

Richard,

I totally missed Marshall's post and, as usual, you're right.
Now, what about that MC-powered Citation?

[RobLav]

Hey Mike,

I just read your proposed rules... well, I think they are too restrictive. My input is:

1) Recommend it NOT be a restricted class.

2) Remove "F1000 is a combination of..." Recommend keep it simple.

3) Recommend chassis of tubular steel or aluminum monococque. New cars should have this option.

4) Recommend free aero, including underbody.

5) You don't mention the engine internals. Recommend engines free axcept 40mm (or 42mm) inlet restrictors.

6) "Electronically controlled differentials are permitted"? Hmmm. Why?

7) Recommend brakes free - allow light alloy calipers, but no carbon.

8) Recommend "maximum" of 6 inch front and 8 inch rear wheels. Also, why restrict wheels to 13" diameter?

9) Dimension "E" seems kind of low.

10) Dimension "G" should supercede dimension "F".

11) I would like to see the wing widths and body widths allowed to be slightly wider - maybe somewhere near an FA.

Overall, I would rather see this class as very free, with few restrictions. Perhaps try to keep engine costs down by regulating the power through max sized inlets or fuel volume regulators.

What if I wanted to buy a Swift DB4 roller (or slider) and install a m/c engine? Should we allow pre-homologated carbon tubs?

Aero will be tricky in this class. Would a car with deeper tunnels actually be faster than one with a decent diffusor? What is the HP/drag ratio? I think it would be fun to explore this and many other questions. This is why I believe it should be more free. Car development ultimately succumbs to the rules. A set of more free rules provides more learning and car development. We're Americans. We are supposed to be free.

Thanks for posting Mike.

Regards,

R

[Marshall Mauney]

Overall, I would rather see this class as very free, with few restrictions. Perhaps try to keep engine costs down by regulating the power through max sized inlets or fuel volume regulators.

Hmmm.....

What is the mission of this class?

What you describe is an engineering class (like CSR, but open-wheel). This would result in higher performance, but much higher costs to compete at the top levels. This generally results in lower car counts.

I was under the impression that the goal of this class was to be able to use existing FF/FC chassis with less expensive, more capable engines from the current crop of literbikes; i.e., low-cost, with lots of competition.

Is the proposed class' mission:

1) To provide higher performance in a 1-liter package, cost no object?

2) To provide FC-like competition and performance at lower costs and higher reliability?

3) To have a place to play with some homebuilt stuff and try design concepts with readily-available engines and whatever old chassis' are laying around?

Unless this is clear to all involved, the rules package won't 'gel' very quickly. Any of the above are worthy goals, but they're not really all cross-compatible.

Marshall Mauney
Steel Cities Region

[carnut169]

I'm going to have to agree with Marshall on this one, with a combination of #1 & #2. To provide FC- like performance (plus more), and competition at lower costs and higher reliability.

Also, a reasonable alternative to those folks with an uncompetitive FC/FF chassis.

If we make the rules too open there won't be a clear path to joining our ranks. When I am done I'll share everything with interested parties- time, costs, performance. Quite sure Mike & Rob would do the same.
I believe we have engineering and testing enough to do in FC that will carry over & satisfy the guys who must tinker (think gears, suspension, fuel, aero, pressures, data- MORE!)... plus you will be able to mess with lubrication, sprockets, engine internals- things that were a no- no in FC.

Thats plenty.

[RobLav]

OK - I see I am way off to the left again... Can we compromise?

How about:?

- Can we do some kind of a mix of all of Marshall's objectives? Like somewhat higher performance than FC (because it is lighter), but cheaper engine/powerplant/box costs, and allow some tinkering.

- Aero - FC sized wings front and rear, FC max body width, flat floor to the firewall, then the floor aft of the firewall is free (free diffusor).

- I still think we should allow alloy brake calipers (cheaper and better than the old LD20's - and some guys may want the single caliper at the differential) and aluminum monococque chassis. Some very old cars are aluminum monococque, like my old Tui SuperVee. That car was a prime candidate for m/c conversion, and the guy that bought it is doing just that.

- Forget the Swift DB4 carbon tub then...

- There is no way we can say that engines must be stock, because these engines are a moving target every year. What we can do is specify: Max swept volume, max compression ratio, max valve lift and duration, max inlet diameter, max valve sizes, free exhaust, etc.

In any case, I did the Hayabusa conversion. But the Hayabusa is much more expensive than the GSXR-1000 or the Yamaha R1. I also have a 2003 Yamaha R1 bike, and it has WAY too much power for the road. In any case, here are my costs:

Hayabusa core: $2100
Hayabusa engine mods: approx $1000
Hayabusa Sidewinder exhaust (used):$500
Hayabusa dashboard: $200
Taylor/Taggert Quaife: $2300
Aluminum plate: $200
4130 steel tubing: $150
Aero streamline tubing for A-Arms: $200
Aluminum sheet for chassis: $150

About $6800 or so for all this. A good R1 engine can be bought for about a thousand less. You could buy a cheaper diff, don't need the engine mods, could use the stock exhaust (I'd remove the EXUP valve). But I spent a lot of time designing and fabricating... probably most of an entire year's spare time (fabricating the rear box/diff housing took a long time). In any case, a guy can build a basic one of these for around $3000. Then, take into account selling the original engine, gearbox, and bell for around $5000 total, you actually would have money back. (A LOT of assumptions here though...)

Too bad someone doesn't offer to make a rear box/diff housing out of aluminum plate for our cars. This would considerably speed up a conversion. Pat Prince is a genius in this stuff, but I believe he made the conversion too complicated with all the new tubing aft of the firewall. All you really need is new triangulated tubing to mount the engine to. You would need to fabricate (or have fabricated) new rear A-Arms that mount directly to the aluminum plate box. Maybe some of us could come up with a conversion package that includes the rear diff carrier (with all holes correctly drilled and tapped as required) as well as the new A-Arms.

In any case, enough rambling...

We're probably pipe dreaming anyway...

[Mike B]

Just because I created the formula1000.com website doesn't mean that I'm the final word on the rules, just the scribe. However, I agree with Marshall in that the first order of business is determining the mission or, in SCCA-speak, the spirit of the class. Then when someone proposes allowing a rotary-powered converted 014a we can say "it doesn't fit the spirit of the class."
Having said that, my vision for the class is as Sean says: a combination of Marshall's #1 and #2. This class is for FC, FF, maybe SV cars converted to 1000cc motorcycle engine power. It would also be a place to run cars that were built with a MC engine that would otherwise meet the chassis prep rules, i.e. Speads.

Rob,
I'm happy to see that you came around in your last post. I totally disagreed with everything in the previous post and totally agree with everything in the most recent post.
Engine: 1000cc motorcycle-based, internals are free (for now.)
Chassis: standard FC
Aero: standard FC (I might consider the firewall-back proposal because I like what you did on your RF96.
Brakes: I agree, however, I pulled my rule directly from the FC section of the GCR. I had an offline discussion with another DSR/potential F1000 racer who made the same points. Brakes could be more open, no carbon.

I also had another offline discussion that centered around wheel size. He suggested allowing 8" and 10" wheels. The thinking being that the Speads would then be eligible, Zetec wheels could be used, and the smaller wheels could be sold to FC guys. Any thoughts on this?

Finally, I would caution against calling this "open-wheeled DSR." Given the above, it would actually be a more restrictive class than that, at least as far as engines are concerned. No 2-strokes, no rotaries, no Nissan A-series, etc. I might even consider striking the 620cc turbocharged stipulation, except turbos are cool. I feel that opening it up into a DSR-like class, there will never be the cohesion needed to achieve the numbers required to be recognized as a class. There is still a place for those that want to have an open-wheeled DSR formula: FS.

Keep the opinions coming!

[T.A. Treat]

If carbon tubs and aero opens up the class to FA chassis with downforce, then I'm out. If the rules target FF/FC conversions then I'm in. FS is a place for them and it's lack of success/coherence/growth isn't worth duplicating with F1000! Let's be focused and target the FF/FC crowd. I disagree with any aero modifications. A guy should be able to take a FC roller, add a R1 and go racing COMPETITIVELY. We MUST find a way to make an endless supply of $$$ irrelevant. The big spenders ruin racing.

The easiest "bolt-in" conversion may be a transverse engine coupled to the LD200 trans. No frame mods, no rear suspension mods, no new diff.

[Mike B]

That's what I'm talkin' about. However, I'd like to leave a door open for the factory-built cars (Speads.) There aren't many of them around, but it would be an option for those without the skills or intestinal fortitude to undertake a conversion. No carbon it is!

Bolting an R1 to an LD200 might be easy, but it would defeat the purpose (IMO) of switching to an MC engine. You'd be gaining at least 100 lb (much of it rotating mass) and bypassing an incredibly efficient, lightweight 6-speed gearbox. I'd love to see someone try it, though!

Unfortunately, you'll never be rid of the big spenders. I have no doubt that within 1-2 years, someone will convert an RF03, using a $10,000 built up GSXR, and render my RF93 uncompetitive. That is the case with any class and I'm willing to accept that.

[T.A. Treat]

No, I was thinking the other way, using the R1 gears and bypassing the LD200 gearset! I get a bulletproof diff, proven pickup point geometry, and no frame mods. I also save reverse and could even have an overdrive if I threw a couple of sets of gears in the LD200. I would also bet against you that my solution would be any heavier than the nounts, diff, chain, and sprockets that you add to a FC. But, that's where the fun is, right? We will see all kinds of ways to slap a bike engine in the car.

[RobLav]

Mr. Treat

The m/c engine would go longitudinal in the car with a shaft running from where the front sprocket bolts to the LD200. If the engine is transverse, the way we are all doing it, then you would need some kind of ring gear.

[T.A. Treat]

I may have confused you when I stated previously that I plan to bypass the LD200 gearset. I am contemplating a transverse m/c engine coupled to the LD200 input shaft, driving through ONE set of gears and through the LD200 diff.

The car as designed would retain the pick up points to the LD200, half shafts, rear suspension, etc. To run a chain system, I was thinking of a hunk of aluminum that duplicates the pickups and mounting points of the LD200 and hols a quaiffe. Bolt it in the car in place of the LD 200 and hook the suspension and drive shafts back up. Simple!

[knighty]

As requested by Mike B from another forum, please find below the details and pics of the car I built

as F1000 is now taking shape, I thought some of you might be interested to see my car, I have now sold it on.......I designed and converted the car myself, using an VanDiemen RF93 Formula Renault, and a Honda Blackbird 1137cc standard engine......I cut the car in half - just behind the rear roll hoop........ measured up the gearbox suspension mountings, designed a 4130 rear sub-frame to suit the suspension, nickel-bronze brazed everything, as per original Vandiemen specs....... mounted the engine semi-stressed, via a CNC-billet structural wet-sump....so engine was very low......all easier said than done.....it took me 3 years to complete!!!!.....let me know if you have any questions

Now speaking from the point of view that I have actually converted a car and experienced 3 years worth of grief, and 2 years racing it, If I was doing it again and I had a rolling chassis sitting in my garage wondering what to do......go take a look at a new formula BMW.....assuming the ford and BMW bike cranks spin the same way.....get hold of one of those laid down 4cyl 1200cc 140Bhp engines, make an adaptorplate, to allow fitment to your hewland gear-box......then go racing, and see how you like it......obviously not quite 1000cc......sounds to me like this formula should be called F1200 or F1300......which would allow standard displacement BMW's, birds ZX12R'sand busas.......

BUT....now contradicting myself......having raced agains the 1000cc Speads cars and speaking to the speads drivers who have switched from heavy 82kg Bird engines to 62Kg R1 and GSXR 1000 engines....they all say that 1000cc it the way to go, as it may not be a missile down the straights, but the lightweight motor makes all the difference in the corders......I can vouch for this too.....they used to pi55 all over me in the corners!

For god sake push for the F1000/whatever rules to use standard engines only......tuning engines causes alot of grief with the racers who can/cant afford to do it, and expense when they go pop......it causes big divisions in the racing community......the only thing that will make you faster it more track knowledge ;-)

[LenFC11]

So any of you guys out there doing the conversions have a bell housing for an rf94/95, thanks in advance

lenff11@yahoo.com

thanks
len

[Jeff Owens]

Try this

http://www.apexspeed.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11557

I would check the classifieds, so this thread is not stolen.

[LenFC11]

Jeff,

By no means was I trying to steel this thread, as I am sure you read it, there was some discussion between Sean O & Rob Lav regarding sale of their bell housings.

I did in fact see that post in the classifieds, but as you can see, Sean & Rob were willing to sell theirs at a much lower price then Bob seems too. I thought others doing the same type of conversion may also have a bell housing they might want to get rid of.

Sorry if others saw this as me trying to steel thread, not my intention, and I thought it did seam related to the topics being discussed earlier.

Cheers
Len Amato

[RobLav]

I didn't mind Len's request at all. I had that bell laying around the garage for a couple years and was happy to sell it for what I did.

[Jeff Owens]

Sorry If I offended anyone. I did not intend for my post to accuse Len of stealing a thread. I forgot about the previous three pages of this thread. I knew I had seen some cheaper Bell Housings some where and now I remember where!!! Now If I can just remember to finish the car!!!!

I cannot wait to hear all of these MC powered rides. The weather brought out some bikes today and I thought I was at the track, then I trealized I was in the garage!!!!!!!!!

[btjsb9]

you dont know me, i am a pesky little lurker around here, but have been paying real atenntion to this thread. i really like the plans you guys have going here,

i am right now working on racing a 03 zx6rr bike, but have wanted to give little formula cars a shot, never could come up with the $$$ though.

just wondering on what is the progress at this point? anymore cars getting closer to realization?
Pictures?

i am a Mechanical Engineering major at GA Tech, so you guys really have my attention!

good luck with the cars, they seem to be coming along nicely!

[Scott Gesford]

arrrrrrggggggggggggggggggggg!

[Purple Frog]

Sean O'Connell (carnut169) is doing a conversion right in your town. Contact him. You may get to do more than watch.

[carnut169]

Why yes, yes I am.

The car is currently at Crutchfield Racing (they make "Leader" Race cars) where they have been measuring, experimenting, and scratching their heads for about a month now. Ed (MR Crutchfield) thought he was going to be able to keep the frame from where the bellhousing bolts up--> forward the same and have a bolt on rear clip for the rear end. He called me Monday and said it just was not going to work. They will have to widen that part of the frame to accomodate the the GSXR 1000. He said it fits but there is no room for a proper exhaust, plus we have an external water pump, fuel pump, oil tank, yada yada to squeeze in there. It will make working on the motor possible.

He thinks that by the end of next week I will be able to run up there and check everything out before he welds it all into place (he is tack-welding all the 4130 now).
Another week to finish welding...
Two (?) more for powder coat and floor-pan
Two (?) more for engine install...

I'd say it should be done in another couple months....

2005 is the year of the Kayak!


btjsb9- You are certainly welcome to come crew for me. The pay sucks, and sometimes I'm grumpy but you would learn with us as we start developing the car which I think is great fun. Ed & company will be there the 1st time we run it to take care of any possible mechanical issues but figuring out the new characteristics will take some time & experimentation.

I will be sure to keep you posted!

[Mike B]

It's nice to see some more interest in this thread.

I'm also in the process of converting a Van Diemen to F1000 and I've added several photos to www.formula1000.com of my conversion and Ed Dickinson's converted RF95. Please note that my car is mostly a mock-up to prove out our concept, it's not what the final product will look like.
Some time this summer I'll also begin another conversion of an RF93, using a totally different concept than the tube frame structure. I would like to have both cars on the track by fall to see how well they work. It's possible that one or both ideas could be offered in a DIY kit at a later date.
I'm also looking forward to seeing photos of Sean's project and will be happy to add them to the F1000 website.

[btjsb9]

arrrrrrggggggggggggggggggggg!

oh woopie, he found me


guess i am never going to be able to ditch that crap ehh?

for all who dont know this is a joke from another forum, please disregard

[btjsb9]

huum, i would love to help out, anytime at the track or working on racecars is better than most alternatives!

id love to see how that thing is coming along, i remember seeing the thread where you found the car, dang dude nice find, if only i could pull something like that off!

mike, your building two cars? dang!
totally different concept from a tube frame?
i thought the tube frame was what made the FC cars, that they werent carbon tubs?

nice site by the way! new addition to my favorites!

[Mike B]

The chassis itself will be tubeframe (Van Diemen RF93) but the MC-portion will not be. Think Stohr.

[Brad Ellingson]

Mike,

You can't drive 2 cars at once, so let me be the first to throw my hat in to drive the second car.

Brad

[Mike B]

Well, Brad, unfortunately you're not the first. You're close to the front of the line, though. We'll see how you perform as a crew chief, first...

[carnut169]

Here is what the car looks like now. I have not seen it in person yet, but we are using stock suspension in the exact same mounting locations, I believe that is a 1st. There is still more supporting pieces that are going in, but the hard part is almost done.
I am off to Ireland tomorrow but when I return I'll drive up check everything out and they can start welding it all into place.

[RussMcB]

I looked at a Speads formula car this past weekend at Roebling. It was pretty interesting. The tube frame chassis is almost like a stretched diamond shape - narrow at nose and rear, but wide at the "hip". Cant tell that when the body is on. Very nice looking car, IMO.

One interesting aspect: the chain drive is not quite parallel with the centerline of the car. Apparently, the CV joints can handle the slight misalignment.

I took pictures if anyone wants me to email them for viewing/hosting/posting...

[carnut169]

[size=2]Russ-[/size]
[size=2][/size]
[size=2]If you send them to me I'll post them...[/size]
[size=2][/size]
[size=2]seanoconnellmail@yahoo.com[/size]
[size=2][/size]

[btjsb9]

Here is what the car looks like now. I have not seen it in person yet, but we are using stock suspension in the exact same mounting locations, I believe that is a 1st. There is still more supporting pieces that are going in, but the hard part is almost done.
I am off to Ireland tomorrow but when I return I'll drive up check everything out and they can start welding it all into place.

dang man, that looks good, i bet it will be a lot easier going with the original suspension desgin, when i saw that guys were changing that it made me wonder why would you want to do that. what are you using for a rear differential, or the part in the place of? is that a solid axle?

[LolaT440]

I did not read all the prior pages. But I hope someone is maybe adding a CF or or FF to the projects. I would think and older outboard CF would be easier to convert than an FC with all the inboard design. And the chassis could be cheaper to find. I could definitely see this in my future.

[Mike B]

Photos of Sean's conversion and the Speads car of Ed Dickinson have been added to the Gallery page of www.formula1000.com

[carnut169]

dang man, that looks good, i bet it will be a lot easier going with the original suspension desgin, when i saw that guys were changing that it made me wonder why would you want to do that. what are you using for a rear differential, or the part in the place of? is that a solid axle?

Thanks! I think having the original suspension will enable us to sort it a bit more quickly plus in the unfortunate case of a bent corner the custom pieces won't be needed. Easier... no. It is easier to go wider with the large sprocket we need like Prince has been doing. Not a big deal when its all covered up w/ a body but for a FS car we want it narrow. The diff is a Taggart Quaife chain drive unit with an aluminum housing.

[carnut169]

Last photo shows the sump tank... way too big. We are going to cut this one down & use it where it sits or build a skinny one to install between the engine & firewall. We are also changing the front & rear sprockets- mounted is a 50 tooth... 44+/- is what will work so there will be a full range of adjustment.



Mike feel free to post on F1000.

[Mike B]

Posted the pics, thanks, Sean. For those that haven't been to www.formula1000.com lately, there are several other new photos and a small video (http://www.mike-beauchamp.com/f1000/images/MVI_1969.AVI) of Neil Drake's RF89/R1. If the sound of his car doesn't give you goose bumps and make you want one, check your pulse!

[btjsb9]

Sean, looking good man, i get what your saying about that sprocket, that thing is pretty huge!!!
did the new subframe end up becoming wider? or just easier if it were?

looks like its getting close to all together.
bet that will be a blast to drive, when you guys think its going to get its first run?

i know i would be chomping at the bit to get it all together, hell i was getting impaitent for just the paintwork on my bike( my toy in its correct clothes .JPG )