Formula 1000

[Mike B]

With Sean O.'s revelation that he is converting to MC power, and the brief discussion in this thread started by Bill Maisey http://www.apexspeed.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10802 I'd like to hear if anyone else is even remotely considering something similar. I know Rob Laverty has a Hayabusa-powered RF96, I'm in the process of converting an RF93 to R1 power, and I know of one other Wisconsin-based RF93 that is up in the air. My current intent is to run in DSR, but if there is a chance there might be other similar cars, I'd consider FS. So, here are my questions:
1) How many other guys are considering this?
2) Which would be your engine choice: 1000cc or 1300cc?
3) Would you consider building/racing to an agreed upon set of very loose rules?

[Purple Frog]

Rules? We don't need no stinkin' rules!

I say leave the current FS rules as they are, build what you want, and go racin'.
Yes, part of the reason I bought the '98 Tatuus is that I saw it as being easy to convert to m/c power. I'll probably go with a Prince conversion, had hoped ICP's would be further along by now.
Yes, I would stay in FS. I don't want all the bodywork hassle (don't currently own a full scale windtunnel).
Personally I'm more tempted to stay at 1000cc because the DSR guys are already doing so much of the development. (car kits, shifters, headers, etc.)

IF there were to be a class to develop, I would informally use the DSR engine rules, attached to the FS rules. Something simple like... 1000ccs, normally asspirated, anything else is fine.


200 lb. lighter, 165 easy HP, 6 speed sequential, sounds like F1... what's not to love.

[Bill Bonow]

Mike,

These cars are built in Italy, been around for a while. Some guy in Chicago tried like crazy to get someone interested and it went nowhere. Had them up at the Sprints to show off and the just sat there. As they say in Texas, "nice hat, no cattle". I think they were asking in the $25K to $30K range.

http://www.stratotech.ca/arco.html

Bill

[Curtis Boggs]

Mike,

I've been wondering for a long time why there isn't a 1000cc cycle power formula car class, ..
makes WAY too much sence, .. .. I think it'll be very cool, .. who knows, .. 2006 might be 2.L pinto, .. or might be FS 1000cc screamer.

Curtis

[Scott Gesford]

Curtis, aren't you always talking about how much the DSR guys spend on motors? Don't ya think that would happen in FS? Still like the idea.

[RobLav]

I totally agree guys. A 1000cc class with minimal rules would be great, but FS is a start.

If I was to do my m/c conversion over again, I would run the Yamaha R1 engine rather than the Hayabusa. Here's my thoughts:

1) The R1 is less expensive to purchase outright. I see them a lot on Ebay for about a grand, whereas the Hayabusa runs around $2200 to $2500 to start

2) The Hayabusa takes a lot more money to get it to 1600cc to be competitive in CSR. I built mine to 1300cc to run at 1200lbs, a 100 lb weight advantage over the 1600cc powerplant cars. I don't believe it will be enough though.

3) R1 comes with 5 valve heads - cool...

4) I have been running a 2003 R1 motorcycle on the street for a couple seasons, and it really is quite a machine. There seems to be more attention to detail with the Yamaha than the Suzuki.

5) DSR is expanding. I'd love to be part of a class of 1000cc m/c powered formula cars with minimal rules, and if someone got bored with it, the crossover to DSR is relatively easy.

If there is interest in this, I'll convert another one, probably an RF93 - RF95.

Other thoughts?

[carnut169]

According to Pat P. the R1 is the motor of choice. The Busa does have more hp (and evn more hp potential) but the R1 is super strong & reliable, and weighs less.

My thought process was the following:
The 96 is a fantastic car, but no longer a national contender. However, as a DSR it is.... I get to run it, develop it (which I love), and should I decide to go back to FC I will have a car that could easily be turned into a Prince LSR. 3-5k for bodywork and its a $23-26k car. That $$ puts me into a competitive FC I just can't wait to see the look on the faces of those DSR guys, with their fancy carbon fiber shells, when I blast past them... [size=2]Here are some photos:




And if you want fenders:

[dc]

I'm diggin' it.


Well, at the very least, if you guys pull this off, you know you'll have a place to discuss it.

[Dave Hopple]

Who built the Yellow sports racer body? In the one shot, it's sbsolutely amazing,( to me anyway) the amount of work that goes into building a body buck and to turn out a nice looking pro quality bodywork.

Sean, looking at the Prince frame photos I am assuming you can still use the 96 rear suspsension/geometry? Good luck, it looks like you will have a challenge ahead of you, but it should be high on the grin factor when you hit the track with it -Dave

[Mike B]

I’m not advocating a rewrite of the FS rules, just a subset for those people who choose to run MC-powered vehicles. And I’m not even advocating an SCCA-sanctioned set of rules, just some loose guidelines so that when (if?) a MC-powered formula car class were to gain momentum, there aren’t guys stuck with Atlantic wheels or carbon tubs. My ideal rules wouldn’t go much beyond what has already been stated here: a limit on displacement, maybe overall car size limits, and no tunnels (oh wait, that’s a discussion for another forum-sorry.)
Bill, you’re right, I remember the Arcobaleno. Don’t forget the Speads, Jedi, the first FSCCA car, and a couple others. It wasn’t that long ago, but it was a different time. MC engines have come of age and now offer great bang for the buck (see Rob’s post.) My preference is the homebuilt route, but if there are enough people like me, Rob, and Pat Prince, those factory-built cars will become more attractive to other racers.

The more I think about it, I’m going to bypass DSR in ’05 and run in FS. That will give me time to design a build the right DSR bodywork for ’06.

Who’s with me?!

Dave, That body is built by Clark Lincoln out of lower Michigan. Unfortunately, I think Prince is using his own suspension. I'm cautiously optimistic that my design will retain the stock RF90-95 rear suspension.

[carnut169]

Mike-

Don't fight for no tunnels.

The tunnels require a single seat design... thus adding value to our projects. We want tunnels! (If you go DSR). I really like open wheel, and like PF, don't want to have to deal w/ bodywork... so as long as I own it, it will be a FS.

Think about it... no zetec vs. pinto crap, motors that are still being made and cost less to buy than one of our rebuilds, more power, less weight... Formula 1000- I like it! (we could put F1 stickers on our cars!)

[Bill Bonow]

Mike,

I don't think you will need to worry about sub-catagories for FS in CenDiv. We (Formula First)have been running FS in CenDiv for three years and have yet to see a "real" FS car. Most tracks we went to, most stewards would ask, "What is FS anyway?" I'll bet that when you start running your car in FS, you'll get asked, "I thought FS was for those modified FV cars" Next year, we will be in a CenDiv Regional FS sub-class called FST. That way we will be placed back where we belong, with FV, and you guys can have FS all to yourself. Only one down side, I'll loose all those FS track records!

Bill

[Mike B]

Don't worry, Sean. My DSR will have full tunnels. That was just a little inside joke for those that frequent the DSR forum.

Again, I'm not advocating any sort of written rules, just a guideline or gentleman's agreement if you will. This will prevent me and Sean from having to compete with someone that shows up with a 300 hp turbo-charged Hayabusa (don't get any ideas, Rob...)

Is there an F1000 class anywhere else in the world? If not, I'd like to go on record as being a founding member!

[Purple Frog]

Just remember, you have to put the kickstand up before the engine will crank.

I believe FS could grow as fast as DSR has revived itself the last few years. The good news in FS is that you don't have to have the rapidly escalating body costs that have taken DSR costs out the roof the last two years. Just run the aero that is already on the car. First measurements seem to show that a R1 will fit under a Tatuus engine cover.

Of course there will be folks that will be spending $10,000 on 190 HP R-1 refreshes. That's racin'.

If only Hasty Horn could convince Yamaha to sell sealed crate motors... sort of like they did for the legends cars.

But it does look like that at pinto refresh time, IF you are a tinkerer, you could sell the pinto, sell the LD200, and use the refresh money you were going to spend anyway, and get real close to having the better part of the conversion paid for.

OBTW, ICP had a real cool set of drawings at the 2003 PRI for the implementation of their Variloc into an R1 based sub-assembly to just weld on to the rear of a Van Dieman. It was designed to have the axle flanges the same distance apart as the LD200/Shafts so that one could even use their existing axles. I think development money was an issue. They would need like 5 to 7 committed investors to make the first run.

[Mike B]

PF,

The drawings that Richard showed me at PRI looked pretty well developed. With the configuration of the Tatuus engine bay, I would think putting an R1 in your car would be a weekend project . Richard should just graft that on to the back of the Citation chassis that's sitting in his shop and start selling copies hand over fist, like Lee Stohr.

[Jim Nash]

I don’t get it. It’s really screwy. Alternative engines create angry debates and cost containment is at the top of the list of things to fix and then everybody loves the idea of converting a car to a motorcycle engine, any motorcycle engine, to run in a class with practically no rules. And practically no participants for that matter.

I can see it now… FS becomes popular but owners don’t like the idea of getting their clock cleaned by somebody with a bigger engine, tunnels, and now commercially available ’93 Williams like active suspension. We take a page from the IT guys and create FS1, FS2, and FS3. Class counts at regionals reach 43. FC and FCZ (make that 44) guys complain about the oil spewing homebuilts that are blistering fast on the straights but dog it in the corners(?). Another race group is added cutting track time for everyone. The F2200 pro series goes to a carbon tub, creating CFCZ. Make that 45 classes. An engine builder from the Northwest reveals he has been casting Kent blocks in his basement for years and offers to sell them at cost. FF, now on life support, explodes in popularity. FS guys, who long for the days of 6800 redlines but still want high tech stuff, start converting their cars to Formula Fords that now use carbon fiber pushrods in their 50 year old engines.

Sorry, just kidding. Mostly.
Jim

[carnut169]

Jim-


I see your concern, but...
Not sure that scenario would pan out on a regional basis due to the fact that open wheel cars run as a group w/ DSRs and CSRs. The number of classes might increase, but your track time would not.

Lets take a more optimistic approach.

More and more current FC drivers (and the CFC guys) tire of the costs of rebuilds, and tire of getting beat by newer chassis. They see guys running 2 seasons, w/ R1 motors that can be purchased for $2,000... beating those same late model FCs and running on $2 a g. pump gas. We come up w/ a set of loose rules, as Mike suggests, limiting displacement to 1000cc, with weight penalties for those running more. Costs go down, participation goes up.... win win.


FS... Formula Savior

[Steve Demeter]

Mike,
Is that the Clark Lincoln that runs the design studio at GM truck??

[John Green]

In one of my previous incarnations, I raced a mini-sprint with a stock Honda 600CBR engine.
If you used up a motor (which rarely happened) for $1000 you plugged in another one.
And oh the sound of an open pipe at 10,000 rpm........

[Curtis Boggs]

Curtis, aren't you always talking about how much the DSR guys spend on motors? Don't ya think that would happen in FS? Still like the idea.

Scott,

Yeas there are some VERY expensive DSR engines out there, .. .. would I spend that much, ... no,
but I can port my own heads and design my own cams, ..

from a business stand point, .. yea, .. you guys go build these FS cars with R1's, .. and as you want to go faster, just call me for the latest cylinder head mods. $$$

Now to be seeerius, .. if there was some kind of limit to the engine mods, .. to keep it a "stock" engine class, .. I think it would be awsome.

I LOVE the Kent & Pinto engines, .. as I always feel real racers work on cars and get rewarded for "engineering" as much as driving, .. but if a cycle powered class gained any momentum I'd do it in a heart beat.

Curtis

[Purple Frog]

Steve,
I think it's the same Clark Linclon. Many posts on the DSR web site.

The way I see it, the m/c FS thing is for a certain subset of drivers.

1. Guys that own a chassis that is not going to be competitive in National racing. (i.e. 90-96 VDs, narrow track Tatuus, etc) I don't see a lot of owners of rocker cars making the switch.
2. Folks that enjoy the regional racing atmosphere, usually at the same few tracks within reasonable driving distance of their homes.
3. Folks that have no desire (or budget) to participate in the Runoffs.
4. Guys that are already "tinkerers".
5. Folks looking for "track day" cars to play with in non-SCCA environs.

Will it be cheaper than pintos? Probably not much.
Will there be some teething problems? Oh yeah.
Will some folks get satisfaction out of making it work? Yes
Will some projects never get done? yes
Will they go quicker than current FCs? yep
Will somebody eventually show up with a '05 VD and a $10K Hines R1? Probably
If done right, could they migrate to DSR later? yes
Will they go slower than current FCs in the corners? no
Will somebody start begging for a national class? I hope not. That would shake out over time (many years), if the thing caught on. It does sort of fit into Peter Olivia's proposal...
Will I do it this year? Probably not... I seem to need to grace one Runoffs in my lifetime. This need too could change.

One engineer pointed out to me that if we lower the weight 200 lbs, we are increasing the efficency of the exsiting brake package, putting less stress on some pieces, and it may even be argued building safer cars in that one would have 200 lbs less momentum pushing you into a barrier when all hell breaks loose.

[sarrcford]

What is the "spirit" of the class currently? It is impossible to say because practically no one participates. Was it the intent of it's founding fathers for this class to inspire imagination or be a simple catch all for just about every formula car that is not already mentioned in the GCR? No rules equals unlimited spending equals no participants. I wonder if $50-60,000 dsrs with super tuned, fragile engines are what people had in mind when they selected that class. The rules will come in FS as soon as the first "unfair advantage" renders someones project obsolete. Or , another class will be created for that person/group. A basic framework stating engine displacement/allowed/disallowed modifications and maybe selecting a spec shock could go along towards cost containment and enhancing participation.

The thought of an affordable, lightweight, motorcyle powered formula car is really exciting to a lot of people. I hope that the creative minds that participate in our sport can make this happen.

Rob Poma

[Mike Holland]

What about Ex-Formula C rules?

[formulasuper]

Well, I guess you could say I've commited to the Ralt RT5/Hayabusa. The VW/Hewland is on the way out & I'm the proud owner of two Suzuki 1300s. Plan to keep the Ralt's rear suspension geometry, it works real nice. Hope to end up around 900-1000lbs. with driver. This new science project starts now.

[Mike B]

Jim: I'm not sure which things your kidding about so I'm not sure which things to refute. I'm not suggesting an alternative engine for FC, or any other class, just a new class. Maybe if a new class of REAL race cars becomes popular, we can get rid of the pseudo-race car tin tops and REDUCE the number of classes. Regarding a class with no rules: it's been working in DSR for the last 30 years...

Rob: Did you say "spec shock"? Doug has strict rules against profanity in these forums.

Curtis: I don't know how you police keeping engine mods to a minimum for several different manufacturers when we can't even police a single make (Pinto) right now. I'm sure you know as well as I do that there are people that cheat at both the national and regional level. That might be a challenge but again, it seems to be working in DSR.

PF: Your description of the MC-powered FS driver almost described me to a "T", except for the Runoffs part. That's why I'm hedging my bets in '05 and hope to join you on the grid at M-O. I'm guessing that's a close description of Sean and Rob L., too.

Scott: Consider yourself a founding member of "Formula 1300". My advice, if I may, would be to build your conversion such that you could switch to an alternative engine (1000cc) with little trouble. Just a suggestion.

[LJennings]

"In one of my previous incarnations, I raced a mini-sprint with a stock Honda 600CBR engine.
If you used up a motor (which rarely happened) for $1000 you plugged in another one.
And oh the sound of an open pipe at 10,000 rpm........"


I too raced mini-sprints but remember things differently. The first two years as the series was building due to inexpensive chassises and "junkyard engines” it was great. Every outing I brought home more money than when I had when I left the shop. During the third year if you did not own a $10,000, "drag" bike engine that was refreshed every-other weekend you might as well stayed at home.

As with any competition, it self-destructs unless it is managed as the 600 cars.

As the motorcycle engine starts to become more popular and are stressed to the nth degree to win, I know from experience that the rebuilds cost we drive a stake through its heart.

You will also see the cost of junkyard engines start to climb. During the first years you could purchase a Suzuki GSXR 1100 for $500.00 then as the MinSprint became known the cost went to $1500 - $2000.

Just look at what it takes to hone the cylinders compared to an automotive-based engine. Check the price for a starter. Also during the early 90's most components were only available through dealers.

One other problem with the MC engine is the Federal government. I had a engine support deal worked out with a major manufacturer until it was brought to everyones attention that the VIN number is assigned to the engine not the bike. So it is impossible to sell just the engine.

One last item, a bike weighs maybe 500# with driver, and has a very small contact patch. Now compare that to 1100# car with a larger contact patch running at maximum rpm. In this case the engine has a similar life as a Formula 1 engine. What are the maintenance cost now ?

I do not mean to rain on anyone's parade just been there and done that.

(edited.... forgot what thread I was posting to)

[Jim Nash]

Mike: No need to refute anything. I was just having fun. I saw your post just as I was going to post the following…


This would make more sense to me it there were some rules around the effort. Similar to what Mike B suggests but more defined than that.

I’ve been told that if I want to get rid of my Kent I should just go off and do it and run FS. But I like the competition part of racing and figure there will never be more than a couple guys to race in FS and because there are few rules the mix of cars could make it, for lack of a better word, goofy. Now if I was joining a small group of people who had a vision for a structured class built around 1000cc bike engines and a set of rules that had some “development” constraints (just like FF, FC, FV, FM) it would make more sense. (As Moto-GP engine technology starts to show up in bikes it might be a problem, but we’ll worry about that later.) We don’t have to go far to find Formula First, championed by DRE and a few converts, as an example. Everyone seems to think a motorcycle powered open wheel car is a great idea, but I have seen few people think an open wheeled version of DSR is the way to go.

With the CenDiv Regional FF car counts up, I’m not going to be converting my car any time soon. But for the guys about to take on this challenge why not try to have it be the beginning of something that could grow into a new class? If you are converting already, what is there to lose? Easy for me to say, right? Good luck with the conversions. Keep us up to date with the progress if you can.

Jim Nash

[Purple Frog]

I would think an RT5 chassis is designed to handle 200+ HP. I'm not as sure about a 93 VD with that much power. That's why I like the 1000cc size for ex-pinto cars. Keep the HP and resulting G-forces in the range the chassis and components were designed to handle.

What attracted me to the Tatuus is that it has no welded chassis behind the fuel cell bulkhead just threaded sockets for stuff to bolt to. So... the theory is that you can unbolt the pinto and bolt on an R1 sub-chassis. Then, if desired, you could always switch it back to the pinto. The same holds true for Carbir FC/S2 chassis.

I'm going to be following Sean's project very closely. I've been a proponent for 18 months, and bought the Tatuus with that in mind, but once in my life I'd like to run at the Runoffs and not get lapped by DaveW. So I might stay pinto until September 25th.

[Mike B]

Jim, that's exactly what I'm talking about! Since we're on the ground floor of this right now, why not have some guidelines in place IN CASE it takes off? Then, those of us that are taking the plunge won't be building something that doesn't fit in anywhere. If there are eight guys doing eight different things, there will never be any cohesiveness. If those eight guys all build something similar, we've just quadrupled the number of Formula Firsts (no offense, Bill) and are well on the way to being recognized as a regional class. By no means am I asking for someone to create a place for us to race these creations (ala FSCCA), that's what FS is for. I'm suggesting that we draft a set of rules, see who builds what, and let the chips fall where they may. If it goes nowhere, drop a full body on it and have fun in DSR.

The most obvious set of rules (in my mind) is a combination of the FC chassis construction rules (including aero) and the MC portion of the DSR engine rules. No need to re-invent the wheel.

[RobLav]

Great topic here. Agree with MikeB and Purple Frog...

Mike - I did not use the term spec shocks - lol

Here's what I would propose:

Class philosophy designed for customer/racer as described earlier by PF

Minimal rules (max freedom), except:

1) Specify maximum weight, track, wheelbase, height, body and wing width (no minimums). Allow venturis using FA rule (I would not even mention this part in rules.)

2) Maximum 6" front and 8" rear rims (must be metal - no minimum)

3) Brakes free but no carbon (must be hydraulic with no electronic brake control/ABS etc)

4) Engine:
- It'd be nice to try and keep this as stock as possible
- Inline 4 cylinder engine from motorcycle
- 1000cc max displacement
- To regulate HP (and cost), limit either air or fuel intake
- ie - Require butterfly intake with max size
- Is 40mm a good max intake / throttle body size at the butterfly?
- And/Or limit HP with a fuel orifice (like Keith Duckworth proposed many years ago)

5) Manual shifting - no automatics, or pneumatic or electric shift

6) Require use of up to 93 octane pump fuel would be a nice rule

7) Chassis must be aluminum or steel

Let us be free and see where development goes.

[carnut169]

Rob- would'nt your rules disallow your car? The Busa is 1300cc, right?

[Mike B]

Rob,

Your proposal is even more restrictive than I envisioned but it's a great start.
1) I think you meant minimum weight. It should be lower than FC, maybe 1000 lb? Keep a minimum aerofoil size to prevent running without them.
2) I could live with that.
3) ditto.
4) I'd be okay with leaving this open for now. Or cut & paste the DSR rule here.
5) ditto. There are some neato, wizzy even, pneumatic shifters that meet the DSR rules and are not very expensive. The Pro Mazda camp is working on one, too. These may be more common in the future.
6) Good god, yes!
7) aluminum presumably to include the Ralt convesions?

I'm of the opinion that there should be fewer rules and restrict as needed, rather than open things up as technology becomes affordable (i.e. pneumatic shifters.)

I'd also like to hear from some guys that havve built MC engines regarding reliability. If an engine can't last a weekend or a race distance, there may not be a need to restrict the engine prep rules, it will be self-limiting out of necessity. No?

[RobLav]

Sean - No, my Hayabusa would not be legal. If we did this, I'd build another car.

Mike - I'd prefer to keep the engines open and free, so the idea to me is to restrict the consumption of air/fuel through max sized throttle bodies and/or fuel orifices. Less policing is required...

- I meant have a max weight, so we don't have any heavy cars crashing into very small ones. Minimum weight is free.

- I'd prefer to keep the shifting simple and not have pneumatic - to make the driver perform the traditional tasks while driving in a race. But I can live with a less restrictive rule here.

- Chassis material - Allow new chassis construction as well as conversions. No Carbon to keep costs down. No magnesium is what I was getting at earlier. Allow aluminum monocoque.

Philosophy is to keep things as free and open as reasonably feasible, just like our society / economy is supposed to be. Insert minimal restrictions only when/where necessary.

[Daniel]

Late model Van Diemens, 99(98?) and up, also have no welded on structures behind the fuel cell bulkhead.

[pshipp]

http://www.monoposto.co.uk

check out this site and look at the regs for the Mono 1200 class for Motorcycle engined cars, ran my OMS here for 2 years before coming over to the US. I do think an open wheel variant of DSR would be fun, ran a DSR for a year but the body work was always hard to manage by myself....

regards

[Jim Crawford]

I didn't see any talk about the SPEADS Formula Cars.
How do they stack up.
www.racingconceptsllc.com
Why not have a class similar to the old FC of years ago or even a Class FD for open wheel DSR type cars.

[Bill Maisey]

The 750 Motor Club in the UK ( www.750mc.uk.co ) has a place for motorcycle engined formula cars also. (go to "racing" - "Regulations" - "Formula 4" to see their rules.) David Longstaff in a Speads car is a regular frontrunner.

Summary of the regulations:
-"Standard" (stock) engines, manufactured before July 2003, list of approved engines (R1, GSXR, Honda etc)
-minimum weight, 1000#
-Standard induction, with jets and slides free
-Standard ignition. No additional units which mod the ECU values allowed.
-Tires: spec AVONs

[jerry freeman]

I bought Rob Laverty's Tui super vee chassis and I'm converting the back to mc power. I'm using a Honda 1000 engine. I think the 1000 is the way to go also. For a do it yourselfer with a tig welder it really isn't that hard to do. Sure, a big time chassis builder could build a better and faster car, but who cares. We're racing for no money. It's all about fun. FS is the perfect class as far as I can tell. The less rules the better. Use 1000 engines and a maximum weight. Allow steel chassis or aluminum tubs so people can covert older cars of just about any type. Does anyone have a carburated mc motor in a car now? Where is the fuel cell located and how is the fuel fed to the carbs?(gravity fed or some kind of fuel pump)

Jerry Freeman
1012noemi@msn.com

[carnut169]

Welcome!


Looks like aother F1000 car here in the southeast. Fuel cell should be under your seat and you will need a pump...

[RobLav]

Hey Jerry,
I hope your project is coming along well.
ANyway, I would put the fuel cell behind you, where the old oil tank was. Find the cell you want and make a new front cover for it (where your back would go). The rear cover I made should suffice. Yes, you will need a fuel pump.

Where will you put the radiators? You will also need a crushable structure up front. You can get a locked diff from Beasely Fiberglass in Painesville, OH at reasonable cost. Your VW CV's will bolt right to it.

Have you found rear uprights yet?

Good luck. Feel free to ask anything on our bulletin board.