Growth

[Bill Maisey]

A suggestion for growth

First, I applaud the expansion of cars included in the FA class. It will bring Fast and interesting cars to the Nationals. As a DSR racer for the past 8 years, I appreciate the appeal of cars with motorcycle engines. Use of motorcycle engines is a rapidly growing trend worldwide. Their advantages have been well reported in the motorsports media (including SportsCar) over the past several years.

So, how about including a motorcycle engine option for FA? Say a 1300 to 1500 cc displacement limit and an 1100-pound (with driver) weight minimum. There are already several manufacturers making such cars (Van Diemen, Speads, SIS and OMS for example) and I am sure others such as Stohr would join the fray. I, for one, would love having LESS fiberglass to repair.

Continuing with this thought, a 1000cc motorcycle engine car could be added to the FC mix and perhaps a 600-750cc engine could be added to F500 (thus appealing to the FSAE graduates) or even the FF mix.

[Purple Frog]

Bill,

I have been a proponent of this idea for about two years. One of the reasons I bought a Tatuus this year is that I see it as easier to convert than a older VD. I have had conversations with Pat Prince about the conversion. Imagine a 990 lb Tatuus (with driver) driven by 165 HP and 6 speed seqential gearbox...

The huge expense in the DSR boom is the cost of proper bodywork. If one stays with converting formula cars, 90% of the bodywork/downforce issues are handled with the purchase of the donor car. We suspect very small engine cowling changes to get a R1 into the rear of a Tatuus.

I believe the Formula S rules will allow this issue to work itself out. Plugging the beasts into an existing national class would be impossible to do without some on-track experience to base the argument against the huge uproar that would occur.

My guess is that opening existing national classes to m/c engines would turn all existing cars in FC, FF, FA into antiques. Even if the HP/Torque curves could be matched, and 200 lbs of balast inserted, the weight balance of the cars would be far superior to toting that big cast iron block around in the back. The comp board would never approve.

[carnut169]

Mike-


Do you have a phone number for Pat? I have a couple wishbones to send him.

[R John Lye]

The number that I have is:

815-625-8116

[JHaydon]

Wow... I thought I was the only one who thought this would be a healthy thing to do! But since I may not be burned as a heretic, I have some ideas...

My guess is that opening existing national classes to m/c engines would turn all existing cars in FC, FF, FA into antiques.

That's true. So maybe a new class structure is in order? First of all, let's go back to a class naming system that's easy to explain -- Formula A are fast, Formula B are less fast, Formula C are less fast than that... sort of the way Production classes do it! (Speaking of... some of us are old enough to remember when there was A Production, B Production, C Production... try to explain to a non-racing person why SCCA starts the alphabet with the letter E.) Vinyl letters are cheap enough that we can all afford to re-name our cars.

Now MAYBE... the rules could be written to include suspension layout as well as engine output. The "new" Formula A could allow ground effects, wings, sequential gearboxes, and fuel injection -- maybe even turbos?? Formula B, let's say flat floor (rear diffuser OK), smaller wings, H-pattern gearbox unless motorcycle powered (maybe not -- this may be where FSCCA would fall), inboard front and rear suspension. Maybe Formula C should have no wings, flat floor, inboard suspension, H-pattern or motorcycle gearbox. Formula D could then require outboard front and rear suspension. (Imagine all the CFF's that would come back out to run Nationals! ) Another class could require a "production car-derived" suspension (or some other wording to protect FV's), and another class could be written around the F500 rules.

Just an idea, not a proposal. But I can imagine Formula Mazdas (the old Star cars) running against FSCCA cars, water-cooled SuperVees, and Hayabusa-powered mid-80's Van Diemens. I think that would be a wild sight, and a great field.

Certain engines would die out because of this, but it would be due to their own shortcomings -- too slow, too expensive, too fragile. Would that be such a bad thing?

[Greg Mercurio]

Growth at the expense of rules stability? No thanks. The escalation of costs in racing is directly related to rules instability and innovation. Racing is not cheap, it's not for the faint of wallet, and it's going to be more expensive as time goes on. Proposing a wholesale re-write of the Formuula classes will attract a few racers whose parents or bank accounts can afford the fare, there's little doubt in this puny brain that messing about in these classes is net zero. We don't need to cannibalize our classes, FS is there for everyone to play in.

However, for those of you pooh pooing my thoughts, wait a year and a half and watch the newest National class kill the Regional participation numbers in Spec Miata. It's going to get so damned expensive to run at the front, it'll eat it's own children.

Proving my cherished belieif that costs drive participation numbers, and innovation and rules instability drives cost. Those that ignore the mistakes of the past are doomed to repeat them.

[D.T. Benner]

As much fun as all this speculation is.... You have to look at this idea from the SCCA clubs viewpoint. By creating FS class at a Regional level you give people a place to run every nut ball combination they can get Homalagated AND get more money for race entrys and membership dues. IF you let some of these cars into a NATIONAL class you open a can of worms that will leed to an almost impossible set of rules to regulate and inforce. With all the BS the rule makers/inforcers have to deal with in the door slammer classes the last thing they want is to have more headaches with open wheel and sports racer rules that are simple by comparison. So build your FS car and have fun in FS but don't plan on going to the runoffs. If you want to come out to California and run in FS you will find some very interesting competition. One friend of mine is building a Swift 014 with a 300 HP 2.2 liter engine and we have a Ralt RT-4 with a BMW V-12 in it. See the DSR guys are not the only inventive racers around!

[JHaydon]

The reason I started thinking about this idea was an article in a British racing mag a while back that analyzed a "cost containment" measure in F1. The analysis was that innovation and technology do not actually drive costs as much as deep pockets do. They pointed to NASCAR -- perhaps the most technologically stagnant racing there is, and yet some of the most expensive on the planet -- and CSR/DSR -- almost anything goes, still cheap, and above all increasing numbers! They concluded that the "value" of the win and the competitors' budgets are the driving forces behind costs. (By the way, running up front in regional Spec Miata is already ungodly expensive. Apparently, the more restrictive the rules, the more it costs to get an edge.)

Somebody must have a direct comparison... someone who has converted an S2000 to a CSR, for example, or an FF1600 to a DSR. All of the anecdotal evidence that I've heard suggests that there are many "other" engines that are much more economical, faster, more plentiful, more reliable...

I'm simply taking the philosophy of the current sports racer classes (National classes) and removing the fenders (and adding some concessions for older cars). Why wouldn't this structure work for formula cars if it works so well with sports racers?

[Mike B]

I'm with Frog on this, only more so. My RF93 conversion to R1 power is progressing (albeit slowly). If I don't find a body I like for it, and don't finish my own body, I will run it in FS.

I also agree with Greg M. about rules stability. Don't create any new classes...yet. Use the existing structure that the SCCA has in place to homologate and develop a regional, then national class. When a couple MC-powered formula cars are out and running, it will snowball into a well-structured class if it's a viable formula. If it's not viable, it will die out and the world continues... no harm, no foul. They key is that all the MC people need to agree on a loose set of rules so that when the numbers are reached, it's a no-brainer to start a new class, beyond FS. For starters, use the MC portion the DSR/CSR rules, sans bodywork.

I have a differing view on class naming, though. I think they should be more descriptive:
FC= F2000 (what a concept...)
FF= F1600
the DSR version = F1000
the CSR version= F1300 (or F1500.)

Having said all that, I still think FC is the place to be.